OliverH Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Next year I'm getting a timeout and doing a 8 week sabbatical. Beside doing some stuff at our half-timbered/ farmer house I like to do an EUC tour in France. Currently I'm having a MSuperV2. Doing this tour I need to rebuild it to fast charging to make two battery (887 Wh) drain runs a day. As an alternative solution I could go over to a MSuperV3 1300/1600Wh. But also with fast charging it takes way to long to charge from 10/20% capacity to full capacity. The more powerful motor would drain the battery faster. Also the V3 has to much reports on loose axle nuts and mainboard issues, more than V2. Weight is an issue as I need to travel to home by train (lift it into train) and like to use it as a normal EUC before and after the sabbatical run (lift it in the car compartment/ drive agility). 20+ kg is not acceptable, normal charging duration of more than 6 hours (reduced with fast charging to 2/3 h) is not acceptable. Gotway Monster is not in the scope for reason pointed out above. i'll do some distance runs this year to get a feeling on range. Any advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 54 minutes ago, OliverH said: pacity. The more powerful motor would drain the battery faster. Also the V3 has to much reports on loose axle nuts and mainboard issues, more than V2. ??? i would guess this is a "very" personal view....never heard of the axle nuts ....(more than usual) ....and mainboard issues are gone since the first batch of V3's....from the V3s+ even never heard of such things... but as you rule out +20kg or +6hour charging Msupers over 820wh are all out of the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donafello Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Are there issues with the V3s axel nuts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisjones Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 On 1/25/2017 at 10:12 PM, OliverH said: Next year I'm getting a timeout and doing a 8 week sabbatical. Beside doing some stuff at our half-timbered/ farmer house I like to do an EUC tour in France. Currently I'm having a MSuperV2. Doing this tour I need to rebuild it to fast charging to make two battery (887 Wh) drain runs a day. As an alternative solution I could go over to a MSuperV3 1300/1600Wh. But also with fast charging it takes way to long to charge from 10/20% capacity to full capacity. The more powerful motor would drain the battery faster. Also the V3 has to much reports on loose axle nuts and mainboard issues, more than V2. Weight is an issue as I need to travel to home by train (lift it into train) and like to use it as a normal EUC before and after the sabbatical run (lift it in the car compartment/ drive agility). 20+ kg is not acceptable, normal charging duration of more than 6 hours (reduced with fast charging to 2/3 h) is not acceptable. Gotway Monster is not in the scope for reason pointed out above. i'll do some distance runs this year to get a feeling on range. Any advice? Hi, I think this is a fantastic idea. I did 2 weeks trip to Avignon in September from Brussels. Have a look at http://www.onmywheel.be You will read (english/french) and see what are the difficulties. Don't take too much weight...don't expect to ride more than 100km/day.... Also you absolutely need a dual charger i mean a dual charge doctor, so you can charge faster. Use charging time as discovering time and visit nice places. and never underestimate the weather or the mountains/hills it can prove to be deadly for a battery. Feel free to ask all your questions! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 On 25 January 2017 at 10:12 PM, OliverH said: The more powerful motor would drain the battery faster. I'm not sure this is correct. If three riders are going side by side, at the same speed, on three completely different motors (one 500w, one 1000 w and one 2000w) and their all up weight is the same, all things being equal they will all be using the same amount of power. So unless I'm completely wrong, factor this OUT of your considerations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaughthammer Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 I would agree to that. Our EUCs don't use stupid internal combustion engines which tend to have shitty efficiency when under partial load, but clever direct driven brushless electric motors, which tend to have a rather flat curve of efficiency vs load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 3 hours ago, Smoother said: I'm not sure this is correct. If three riders are going side by side, at the same speed, on three completely different motors (one 500w, one 1000 w and one 2000w) and their all up weight is the same, all things being equal they will all be using the same amount of power. So unless I'm completely wrong, factor this OUT of your considerations. I don't think you can make this claim regardless. It depends most likely on more motor characteristics than power and on the speed and on the weight (even assuming the latter two are the same for all three motors). Assuming full load, the efficiency heavily depends on the speed and is optimal close to max speed. That means, the motor which is operated closer to max speed (for a given speed) has likely the better efficiency. This alone should usually favour the weaker motor over the more powerful motor in terms of efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 I give it a try on a trip I did with the ACM and do it again with my MSuper V2. As I've a charge doctor I can see what's left in the battery. I had to push the ACM for some km on the trip Huningue-Mulhouse. I reached the Mulhouse railway station with nasty beebings all the way through Mulhouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 8 hours ago, Chrisjones said: Hi, I think this is a fantastic idea. I did 2 weeks trip to Avignon in September from Brussels. Have a look at http://www.onmywheel.be You will read (english/french) and see what are the difficulties. Don't take too much weight...don't expect to ride more than 100km/day.... Also you absolutely need a dual charger i mean a dual charge doctor, so you can charge faster. Use charging time as discovering time and visit nice places. and never underestimate the weather or the mountains/hills it can prove to be deadly for a battery. Feel free to ask all your questions! Chris I'll read your posts on your page. I had in mind doing 60-70 km a day. Which equals to two battery chargings. One over night and the other a pre lunch break with charging. Start riding at 8:00-8:30 in the morning should be a good plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisjones Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Typically what i did was i was staying in a camping and got up as early as possible (when the sun was up) took some time to eat and put all my stuff back in backpack and left usually around 7h-8h. I was riding a Gotway ACM 820. i had two chargers to charge fully in 2h30min. I did usually 20-25Km (1h-1h30) and then allowed me to stop for coffee (45m) and if possible charge battery. Always look for places were you can possibly charge. So then i did again 20-30km before stopping for lunch and then i stop for around 1h30 allowing to charge the battery again and visiting the place were i was (usually at tourism offices the charged while i visit the place) Then around 14h i left and did the last part. It started to get painfull on the foot sole (original pedals) and the back (14kg backpack) Usually for 30-40km, pausing regularly to allow foot and back to rest. Arriving between 17h-18h to destination allowing me to still visit some places, and find a good restaurant for the evening...but as soon as possible to bed usually when the sun was down. I woke up early and planned my daily trip when awake, finding places to stop and planning the road to take trying to avoid too crowded roads and as much as possible on bicycle paths. To me the most difficult was to manage the pain on the foot sole. Directions were given through Locus Pro app (to me the best) using gpsies.com allowing people to follow me in real time. (set it up before leaving) Also if you change country get a simcard with data and ensure you also have a battery pack to charge your phone on the road while riding. Best of luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 I like to do a test ride on a weekend on EuroVelo15 to see how it works. Thanks for sharing your experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 On 30 January 2017 at 9:07 PM, Mono said: I don't think you can make this claim regardless. It depends most likely on more motor characteristics than power and on the speed and on the weight (even assuming the latter two are the same for all three motors). Assuming full load, the efficiency heavily depends on the speed and is optimal close to max speed. That means, the motor which is operated closer to max speed (for a given speed) has likely the better efficiency. This alone should usually favour the weaker motor over the more powerful motor in terms of efficiency. I don't know enough about motor efficiency to comment on this, other than to say, that's an interesting observation. I'm not sure what you mean by "assuming full load" who assumed that? What type of load are you referring too, weight of the rider, or demand on the motor? My thoughts were that the same amount of energy is required to move all three riders along the same path, more or less. eg 300w is 300w is 300w. If all three batteries are producing 300w of continuous motion power, then they are depleting at the same rate, no? Can one motor be so inefficient, that to produce 300w of propulsion, it uses, let's say, 400w? Or is the difference minimal and therefore inconsequential? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 10 hours ago, Smoother said: I don't know enough about motor efficiency to comment on this, other than to say, that's an interesting observation. I'm not sure what you mean by "assuming full load" who assumed that? For the half sentence that followed to know to be true I needed to assume limit load, because these are the curves I know of.^1 Quote What type of load are you referring too, weight of the rider, or demand on the motor? I was talking about motor characteristics, hence load of the motor. Quote My thoughts were that the same amount of energy is required to move all three riders along the same path, more or less. eg 300w is 300w is 300w. Agreed. Quote If all three batteries are producing 300w of continuous motion power, then they are depleting at the same rate, no? Sure, if you already put in the result that they all use the same energy, you also get the result out that they use the same energy. The point is however that the motors might well operate at different levels of efficiency. Quote Can one motor be so inefficient, that to produce 300w of propulsion, it uses, let's say, 400w? Definitely. Depending on the operating point, an electric motor has between 0% and 90% efficiency under full load.^1 I don't know the numbers under partial load but it would be very surprising if they wouldn't also vary significantly. Quote Or is the difference minimal and therefore inconsequential? I don't know how large the differences are for the setups we are interested in. I would guess they are between 10% (rather inconsequential) and 100% (i.e. double consumption, hence somewhat relevant). ^1 https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/electric-motor-power-really-simple-and-hp-ratings/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Ok then. Motor efficiency at various percentages of output can vary widely. Thanks for that. ? I guess it harder to compare apples with apples than I thought.? But we're not sure how efficiency varies under partial load, and even if the weakest wheel in this hypothetical was at max load, by definition, the other two would not be. I'm sure there's a table somewhere. Hey! What are the other people on this thread talking about, something about a sabbatical? Damn OP! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted February 9, 2017 Author Share Posted February 9, 2017 Sabbatical is nice. 8 weeks time to arrange things in your life, help other people, what ever you want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 8 weeks is a rather short sabbatical though, that's actually not much longer than the vacation time the French people enjoy every year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted February 9, 2017 Author Share Posted February 9, 2017 @Mono When do the people work in France? You're fighting for 35 hours a week working time, it was a total desaster to lift the retirement time to 60+ We've regular 26 day's over here a year in our company with a 42 hour week and not so much bank days. So I give 2 weeks and get 6 weeks on top next year and still have 16 days left which gives ma a comfortable planing with holidays. All 7 years is sabbatical time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, OliverH said: When do the people work in France? Just checked, it seems that French public servants have indeed 40 days of vacation plus 4-or-so unmovable days off. After all, the year has about 250 working days, so 44/250 is less than 18% and 250-44 > 200 What I find applaudable in Switzerland is the flexible handling of part-time work. It seems totally acceptable in Switzerland that you work for any number of hours below 42 per week. Maybe that's not true for all jobs, but the part-time attitude seems overall quite different than in other countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted February 9, 2017 Author Share Posted February 9, 2017 9 minutes ago, Mono said: Just checked, it seems that French public servants have indeed 40 days of vacation plus 4-or-so unmovable days off. After all, the year has about 250 working days, so 44/250 is less than 18% and 250-44 > 200 What I find applaudable in Switzerland is the flexible handling of part-time work. It seems totally acceptable in Switzerland that you work for any number of hours below 42 per week. Maybe that's not true for all jobs, but the part-time attitude seems overall quite different than in other countries. That's true my wife works 60% and a lot of colleagues are working 80-90%. And you can take a unpaid time to do a holiday or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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