Msuper V3 with 1600wh 84v battery and 1640wh with 67.2v battery

[Donafello]

I just received a email from jane explaining that there are 2 versions of the v3. a 1600wh with 84v and the 1640wh with 67.2. Maybe she can elaborate a little for us. For our EUC veterans, what would be the difference of the two units that have the different volts?

[HEC]

Well 84V (20 cells) like Inmotion wheels benefits from more power you can get out of the batteries at the same current or in another words with the same power it takes less of current with results in lower heating of some components and better battery performance but you'd need some bit more expensive parts to withstand higher voltage.

67.2V (16 cells) benefit is more common and usually cheaper electronic parts.

It looks like 1640 Wh / 67.2V will be "16S8P" 128 Cells and 1600 Wh / 84V will be "20S6P" 120 cells (of 3050 3500 mAh capacity). I personally would go for 84V option (is the price same?).

[Donafello]

I think it is.  Thanks for your feedback

[The Fat Unicyclist]

The outward side makes sense - Thanks @HEC.

But what about the inward - would this have any impact on charging times?

[HEC]

1 hour ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

But what about the inward - would this have any impact on charging times?

Well that really depends on supplied chargers. I'd assume they'll use the cheapest acceptable one so most likely 2A versions for 67.2V model and 1.5A for 84V model so either way if you want faster charging you'd need to purchase higher rated charges. And if you'd aim to maximize your battery life you'd need to stay at or below recommended charging rate for used cells so if they'll be the same in both models you'd achieve basically same charge max "safe" / life extending charge time independent of actual S and P configurations. Lets assume that max safe / life extending charge rate will be 0.5C and (for simplicity) say the cell capacity is 3000 mAh resulting in 1.5A safe charging current per cell (or better say P "slice") then you'll get:

Assuming all packs are truly in parallel (full 8P or 6P setup):

12A charging for 8P at 67.2V and 9A charging for 6P at 84V but those are purely theoretical maximum values and will greatly depend on leads between charging socket and battery packs as well as maximum sustained current the charging socket can withstand (usually 5 or 6A max).

If the packs will be "chained" in any way rather than full parallel connection the maximum current will decrease based on the parallel / chaining configuration. Let's say that two 820 sets of packs are chained for 1640 Wh version and two 800 sets of pack for 1600 Wh version then you could theoretically charge it with half of above values - e.g. 6A for 67.2V version and 4.5A for 84V version resulting 403.2 and 378 W maximum power output of each charger respectively. So in theory 67.2V fast charger would take just a bit (4 minutes) over 4 hours to fully charge battery while 84V would take extra 10 minutes. The real time will be indeed longer as first of all at the start in CC mode the voltage will be lower and once the CV stage kicks in the current will be dropping so charger will be newer outputting it's max power to the battery. If the charging socket (like GX-16) will be limited / rated to only 5A then 84V fast charging will be better / faster ...

Bottom line - with both voltages using a fast charger with maximum safe / life extending charging current you're looking at about 5 to 5 and half hours to fully charge almost completely depleted batteries. With standard slow charges 3 times more.

[US69]

btw: there is a little miscalculation:

 

cell capacity for both would be/is 3500 mah!

67,2 volt:

16s * 8p * 3,7volt * 3500mah = 1657wh (or 828 * 2)

84 volt

20s * 6p * 3,7volt * 3500mah = 1554wh 

 

for the 67,2 the 3500mah is proved and knownfor the 820wh version 16s4p(so double that) , for the 84 version a 3000 mah batterie in 6 parallel would be way to low.... (1330wh only)

[US69]

and i have 16s8p on my 1360wh version...that are 2900mah cells (LG btw)

16s * 8p * 3,7volt * 2900mah = 1373wh

you cant calculate with 4,2 volt or 67,2 (or 84)....always have to use 3,7 or 59,2( or 74)

[Donafello]

I want one of these units and I want it now.  I can't wait to get the word I can purchase.  It will be the fastest instapurchase ever.  

[The Fat Unicyclist]

Thanks @HEC and @KingSong69...  I needed a reason to have a headache...

[HEC]

59 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

btw: there is a little miscalculation:

You're indeed correct - it's 3500 mAh cells and not 3050 - thanks for noticing! The irony is that I've actually did calculate the capacity based on 3.7V rather then 4.2V but then went "dyslectic" swapping two figures in a rush ...

[Donafello]

She also said the 1600wh would be faster.  I'm trying to get clarification now.  I wonder how much faster.  There was a website from another country advertising the 1600wh V3 and it said 70km/hr and 170km range.  You think that speed is possible.  That's over 40mph????

If that's the case then I'm glad my order got cancelled for the 1640wh

[checho]

is it the same control board as the 67.2V that is capable of 84V or a different control board?

if it is the same control board, it would be possible to upgrade the msuperv3 by only replacing the battery packs, but if it is a different control board it would require the new control board and the battery packs.

Going from 67.2V to 84V is a 25% boost in power.

Now if they create an HT version at 84V I will definitely be getting one.

The advantage of higher voltage is that to use the same power it requires less current.

 

[Donafello]

Well I'm in contact with them now and I'm ready to order. I don't have much details besides the speed in increased to 50km/hr which means it can prob go a little faster.  Other then that info I don't know anything else. 

[nomad]

50 km/h is 25% faster than 40 km/h so that top speed increase seems to make sense, as 84V is also 25% higher than 67.2V. However 50km/h will use more than 25% extra power because there's a curve, it's not linear. If the low voltage version can do 45km/h safely (spec was 40km/h if I'm not mistaken) then the high voltage should handle 50km/h, but then again at what rider weight? Also strong head wind has a big effect which is probably not accounted for in the spec. 84V is working well for Inmotion V5F+ and V8.

 

I'd love to see a next gen ACM with 84V and an integrated fully retractable trolley handle. Also change out the multicolor LEDs for a proper braking light. Why not offer a matte white color too? That would be a great all rounder wheel. The early ACMs were like the prototype for the Msuper v3 and now maybe the high voltage v3 will be the prototype for the next ACM?

[Donafello]

2 hours ago, nomad said:

50 km/h is 25% faster than 40 km/h so that top speed increase seems to make sense, as 84V is also 25% higher than 67.2V. However 50km/h will use more than 25% extra power because there's a curve, it's not linear. If the low voltage version can do 45km/h safely (spec was 40km/h if I'm not mistaken) then the high voltage should handle 50km/h, but then again at what rider weight? Also strong head wind has a big effect which is probably not accounted for in the spec. 84V is working well for Inmotion V5F+ and V8.

 

I'd love to see a next gen ACM with 84V and an integrated fully retractable trolley handle. Also change out the multicolor LEDs for a proper braking light. Why not offer a matte white color too? That would be a great all rounder wheel. The early ACMs were like the prototype for the Msuper v3 and now maybe the high voltage v3 will be the prototype for the next ACM?

Will torque be effected between the high voltage and regular unit. 

[checho]

On 9/11/2016 at 10:43 AM, Donafello said:

Will torque be effected between the high voltage and regular unit. 

Well the torque will improve by about 25%, however this motor is optimized for speed not for torque, therefore it will use more energy and generate more heat on hills, vs a high torque version which currently does not exist. The winding of the motor needs to be different for high torque, it will be slower but will be much better at handling pot holes and hills for heavy riders, a high torque version will also be safer with less likelyhood of overheating.

[HEC]

11 hours ago, checho said:

Well the torque will improve by about 25%, however this motor is optimized for speed not for torque, therefore it will use more energy and generate more heat on hills, vs a high torque version which currently does not exist. The winding of the motor needs to be different for high torque, it will be slower but will be much better at handling pot holes and hills for heavy riders, a high torque version will also be safer with less likelyhood of overheating.

I'd actually prefer HT version to HS as such high speeds are IMO useless for most riders anyway (leaving aside the danger). If GW would produce HT 84V version I might consider getting one ...

[EricGhost]

25 minutes ago, HEC said:

I'd actually prefer HT version to HS as such high speeds are IMO useless for most riders anyway (leaving aside the danger). If GW would produce HT 84V version I might consider getting one ...

I'm of the same opinion, anything above 30Km/h is too dangerous for me and I prefer torque vs speed for more safety against hills and terrain obstacles and off-road so that current->torque peaks are not an issue 

[Mistagear]

So far, I'm the only person to have crashed at 50 kph, thrust me, you DO NOT want to find out what it's like.

Four months later and I have not fully recovered and possibly never will. I have resumed riding but can not even think about repeating the speeds that I regularly rode at.

Beware folks

[US69]

26 minutes ago, Mistagear said:

So far, I'm the only person to have crashed at 50 kph, thrust me, you DO NOT want to find out what it's like.

Four months later and I have not fully recovered and possibly never will. I have resumed riding but can not even think about repeating the speeds that I regularly rode at.

Beware folks

With what machine have you crashed at 50kmh???

[Mistagear]

My 26"

[US69]

Aaaah, Ok, The famous australian 26" Milbay Motouni ;-)

You should use the 1200Watt Version :-)

[litewave]

1 hour ago, Mistagear said:

So far, I'm the only person to have crashed at 50 kph, thrust me, you DO NOT want to find out what it's like.

Four months later and I have not fully recovered and possibly never will. I have resumed riding but can not even think about repeating the speeds that I regularly rode at.

Beware folks

Really sorry to hear about that, mate. At least you live in quite possibly the best metropolitan area for health care in Australia, which is recognised internationally to have high standards of care, (despite moving to privatisation and private health insurance in recent years). If you feel willing to talk about it at some point, what safety gear were you wearing, and did it save your life? 

[EricGhost]

3 hours ago, Mistagear said:

So far, I'm the only person to have crashed at 50 kph, thrust me, you DO NOT want to find out what it's like.

Four months later and I have not fully recovered and possibly never will. I have resumed riding but can not even think about repeating the speeds that I regularly rode at.

Beware folks

It's like you dropped yourself from the 10mt platform at the swimming pool but no water just hard ground, still you're telling us so the only advantage I can see it's that there was for sure a small forward component in your fall so you bounced and slided instead of a full vertical bouncing. otherwise ......... 

EDIT: That's the problem with speed values,we think at them like we are driving cars, so 50Km/h looks like walking when sitting on a car, but we are speaking of a kinetic energy comparable to a 10meters drop !!!

[Mistagear]

Sorry for hijacking the thread, was unintended. Delete this post if I'm too far off subject

Speeds above 40kph have increasingly significant problems for EUC riders. You are forced to take a more forward leaning position to counter the effects of wind resistance. This factor will surprise many people as it did me the first time I went beyond the 40kph level. (1200w motor)

By time you reach 50kph, you've assumed a forward stance which is very risky if something goes wrong. Folding forward at your waist reduces the effect of wind resistance but also reduces the leverage on the wheel making it difficult to keep powering forward to maintain speed.

i wore helmet, gloves and motor bike strength jacket and pants, however unlike a bike,the angle you hit the ground is greater due to a windscreen wiper effect when riding a single wheel (more hit than slide) resulting in muscular/skeletal damage in addition to normal superficial knee/elbow damage 

except for organised racing competition, I think all EUC makers would serve their customers better by locking speeds to 35kph or lower