Wheel price differences & import & taxes

[esaj]

Split from here:  

 

 

 

If I could grab a new Ninebot One E+ for 400€ (449usd), I'd go get one just for the heck of it. Checking the prices of the Finnish reseller...

Ninebot One E+ 320Wh  1088.72€  (around 1220USD)
Ninebot One E+ 620Wh  3535.24€  (around 3970USD, don't know where they get that battery, 1RadWerkstatt? )
KS-16A, 680 Wh  1760.80€ (Around 1980USD)

Yup, too rich for my blood...

[Vik's]

1 minute ago, esaj said:

If I could grab a new Ninebot One E+ for 400€ (449usd), I'd go get one just for the heck of it...

Same here. Whould get 2 or 3 of them just for some friends and my wife as she waiting for her mini pro.

1 minute ago, esaj said:

E+ 640Wh  3535.24€  (around 3970USD, don't know where they get that battery, 1RadWerkstatt? )

Don't know what they have been smoking to price it that high... A good portion of that stuff have to be included for that price.

[esaj]

5 minutes ago, Vik's said:

Don't know what they have been smoking to price it that high... A good portion of that stuff have to be included for that price.

The price-list is here (I edited the above post, the larger E+ battery is 620Wh, not 640Wh): http://kevytilmailu.com/tiedostot/Airwheel_hinnasto.pdf   (ALV 0 means 0% VAT, which is not possible for consumers, only business-to-business with VAT-redemptions done through taxing...)

On the other hand, I do understand that it's costly for the importer too:  Unit cost + freight + 30% import rate (although I believe they import through Estonia, maybe it's cheaper that way) +  sellers' margin + 24% VAT on top of that. At least the price includes domestic freight. It's a damn expensive country

[Vik's]

@esaj 

Welcome to the club! =) Same here about taxes and VAT. EUC prices is about the same on that pricelist. Oh well we can not complain too much, - at least we've got the weather... oh, wait...

But I still think it's a little overkill for expanded battery, tripple price of stock E+... An extra original battery seems to be more logical way to extend the range...

[esaj]

2 minutes ago, Vik's said:

@esaj 

Welcome to the club! =) Same here about taxes and VAT. EUC prices is about the same on that pricelist. Oh well we can not complain too much, - at least we've got the weather... oh, wait...

Oh yes, the lovely nordic weather... "The Finnish summer is short but at least it usually doesn't snow" or something along those lines  

2 minutes ago, Vik's said:

But I still think it's a little overkill for expanded battery, tripple price of stock E+... An extra original battery seems to be more logical way to extend the range...

That's actually the company I ordered my Ninebot E (not E+, they didn't have that available at that point) a little over a year ago. It was then around 850€ then if memory serves. But then they had lots of delays with the importing, and I ended up first buying a generic from Vee (EUC Extreme) and then his old Firewheel, and canceled the E just a day or two before they would have shipped it to me... and those two are still the only wheels I have (with the generic being on loan with my father-in-law-"candidate" since late last summer).

Right now I'm stuck with my batteries waiting for the BMSs to be replaced (which should finally be done next week, some more delays there with the guy doing the replacements having other matters to deal with, but also no thanks to me procrastinating with sending them for replacement), after which I still haven't got a new wheel to install them into. At one point I was going to get a KS18, but then got second thoughts after seeing the original batteries (which are nothing like 4*16S1P), then KS16, but there are reports of problems, and then asked Linnea if they'd sell me an ACM without batteries (but they didn't). I'm not really looking into rebuilding the Firewheel yet again, as the shell is a real pain to work with (and fractured in couple of places so I'd have to repair it with epoxy or something). On the other hand, lately I've been sucked into the world of electronics so much that I haven't even thought about it that much. To add insult to the injury, last summer was the rainiest and coldest within about a decade or so, and now it's actually been really warm spring...

[Vik's]

@esaj  Hope you'll get yourself a ridable wheel soon then! Be it you resurrected Firewheel or some other (new?) wheel.

 

[Planetpapi]

I wonder how Forward California sells them that cheap. They can not be that cheap. Other vendors here in USA sells for more. I paid nearly $800 if I remember right. Nonetheless it's a killer deal. Too bad I already own a Ninebot One E+. I will tell my other friends.

[Planetpapi]

2 hours ago, esaj said:

If I could grab a new Ninebot One E+ for 400€ (449usd), I'd go get one just for the heck of it. Checking the prices of the Finnish reseller...

Ninebot One E+ 320Wh  1088.72€  (around 1220USD)
Ninebot One E+ 620Wh  3535.24€  (around 3970USD, don't know where they get that battery, 1RadWerkstatt? )
KS-16A, 680 Wh  1760.80€ (Around 1980USD)

Yup, too rich for my blood...

OMG. Insane. Looking at those prices, lots of things are cheaper in USA...and yet we complain for not getting a good deal.

[esaj]

3 minutes ago, Planetpapi said:

OMG. Insane. Looking at those prices, lots of things are cheaper in USA...and yet we complain for not getting a good deal.

Yup, welcome to the welfare states... For a working median income person, the total tax rate is estimated to be somewhere north of 45% (ie. first you pay taxes on your income, then you pay some more taxes when you use that money to buy things etc). Late last year (2015) it was on news that gasoline is cheaper than since December 2009. And the price was 1.32€/liter (about 5.60USD/gallon). And that's just one example...   I'm not saying we're the most expensive country in the world (probably not), but in the top-10 at least  

[Planetpapi]

Let's say you ordered something from Forward CA for $500. Do you have to pay import duty, tax, penalty for ordering online, unboxing video fine and things like that? Point is, would you get it cheaper than your local vendor?

[Vik's]

8 minutes ago, Planetpapi said:

Let's say you ordered something from Forward CA for $500. Do you have to pay import duty, tax, penalty for ordering online, unboxing video fine and things like that? Point is, would you get it cheaper than your local vendor?

Could be worth it... But it depends. Are guys at ForwardCalifornia willing to ship outside of US? And how much will shipping/freight cost.

In Norway we have to pay import duty and tax + 25% VAT of the whole amount (shipping included) on things ordered outside our country... And then it could possibly be a little cheaper that saleprices some of local dealers have...

[esaj]

15 minutes ago, Planetpapi said:

Let's say you ordered something from Forward CA for $500. Do you have to pay import duty, tax, penalty for ordering online, unboxing video fine and things like that? Point is, would you get it cheaper than your local vendor?

I think (although I'm not 100% sure anymore, I did research this a bit last summer, but have forgotten the details) it goes something like this: the import tax is around 30% (or maybe it was 28%, don't remember exactly, it doesn't need to be paid for products purchased within European Union). That's actually being paid for the total amount of the cost of product + freight cost. So just as an example, let's assume the freight would be around 100€ (about 112USD) and the unit-price would be 400€ (449USD). That's 500€ in total. Slap 30% import tax on that, it becomes 500€ * 1.3 = 650€. After that, the VAT is added, too. That's extra 24%, and I'm fairly sure it's calculated from the unit cost + freight + import duty. So 650€ * 1.24 = 806€. Depending on the courier, I still might have to pick it up from the customs (and do some customs clearance stuff, unless the courier takes care of it), which basically is "no cost" but of course demands some effort (and maybe even travel to the capital, about 400km away). Well, still "worth it" in comparison to buying one domestically for 1088€, but I don't want a Ninebot THAT badly. But I could pick one up for 400€ if it was available domestically at that price, no problem 

[Vik's]

3 minutes ago, esaj said:

... But I could pick one up for 400€ if it was available domestically at that price, no problem 

+100500

Amen to that!

[Planetpapi]

No more questions asked. In this regard, I LOVE AMERICA.

[Vik's]

4 minutes ago, Planetpapi said:

No more questions asked. In this regard, I LOVE AMERICA.

If by any chance you were out to visit Finland or Norway (taking a couple of ninebots, the "flame" ones, with you)... Don't know about @esaj but I would definitely love America a little bit more than usual)))))

[esaj]

33 minutes ago, Planetpapi said:

No more questions asked. In this regard, I LOVE AMERICA.

Yeah, I've understood that the States don't have an actual VAT-system, but some sort of sales-tax nevertheless? The flip-side of high taxes is "more equal" (but not really THAT equal) welfare, schooling and healthcare. I'm somewhat crazy, like you've probably noticed  (Well, not "crazy crazy", but somewhat... unstable maybe? ) My medication costs me less than 10€ per month. We get free health-care (although I go to a private doctor, since my workplace pays for that). I went to a polytechnic school, didn't cost me a dime, actually the government paid me a (small) allowance through it (and I did some work on the side too, to make ends meet better).

It's not a perfect system, probably not even the best system in the world, but it sort of works. Except the current administration is about to privatize a lot of things, cut on medical aid, cut on education etc... We'll see what the price to pay is in the future. No system is perfect, but the current state of so-called "capitalism" (far from the original ideology) isn't that good either... fiat-currencies are a scam. I could rant on this forever (even though I'm not that into politics or economics). The current state of the world economics is fucked up beyond all recognition.  HFT, too-big-to-fail, derivatives and other financial instruments, QE-forever, central-bank financed markets...  Read something like Zerohedge or watch something like Zeitgeist or Requiem for the American Dream (Noam Chomsky) if you're more interested in the subject, I think they're available on Netflix.

I might be a bit drunk right now, and taking this thread waaaay off-topic...

 

24 minutes ago, Vik's said:

If by any chance you were out to visit Finland or Norway (taking a couple of ninebots, the "flame" ones, with you)... Don't know about @esaj but I would definitely love America a little bit more than usual)))))

I'm all for it  

[steve454]

On 5/20/2016 at 4:00 PM, esaj said:

Yup, welcome to the welfare states... For a working median income person, the total tax rate is estimated to be somewhere north of 45% (ie. first you pay taxes on your income, then you pay some more taxes when you use that money to buy things etc). Late last year (2015) it was on news that gasoline is cheaper than since December 2009. And the price was 1.32€/liter (about 5.60USD/gallon). And that's just one example...   I'm not saying we're the most expensive country in the world (probably not), but in the top-10 at least  

Hey, looks like a great place.

[Jurgen]

10 hours ago, esaj said:

Yeah, I've understood that the States don't have an actual VAT-system, but some sort of sales-tax nevertheless? The flip-side of high taxes is "more equal" (but not really THAT equal) welfare, schooling and healthcare. I'm somewhat crazy, like you've probably noticed  (Well, not "crazy crazy", but somewhat... unstable maybe? ) My medication costs me less than 10€ per month. We get free health-care (although I go to a private doctor, since my workplace pays for that). I went to a polytechnic school, didn't cost me a dime, actually the government paid me a (small) allowance through it (and I did some work on the side too, to make ends meet better).

It's not a perfect system, probably not even the best system in the world, but it sort of works. Except the current administration is about to privatize a lot of things, cut on medical aid, cut on education etc... We'll see what the price to pay is in the future. No system is perfect, but the current state of so-called "capitalism" (far from the original ideology) isn't that good either... fiat-currencies are a scam. I could rant on this forever (even though I'm not that into politics or economics). The current state of the world economics is fucked up beyond all recognition.  HFT, too-big-to-fail, derivatives and other financial instruments, QE-forever, central-bank financed markets...  Read something like Zerohedge or watch something like Zeitgeist or Requiem for the American Dream (Noam Chomsky) if you're more interested in the subject, I think they're available on Netflix.

I might be a bit drunk right now, and taking this thread waaaay off-topic...

 

I'm all for it  

Die Gedanken sind frei.

I believe extremes never work out well, whatever the subject. Be it economically liberal or conservative, they simply pump the middle class dry from each end.

I would like to see a system that is socially liberal (free education, free healthcare,....) and economically conservative (work and compete for the money) that respects individual freedom, and puts the 'needs' of the own country/people before the 'wants' of the multinational concerns. Anybody here knows a country that fits this profile?

 

 

 

[Jdestef]

For comparison, I'm probably upper-middle class and I'll pay 25% federal income tax this year, then another 5% Massachusetts state income tax.  Plus, Boston sales tax is currently 6.25% meaning every purchase has an additional 6.25% added to it (except food and some other obscure things).  Some states have NO sales tax, but usually have higher state income tax rates to compensate.

 

 

 

 

[steve454]

On 5/20/2016 at 0:09 PM, SuperSport said:

ForwardCA now has the NineBot Special Edition Flame E+ version on sale for $449!!!!  Awesome price!  That's almost the price of a battery alone.  And the other E+'s are only $549.

https://www.forwardca.com/products/ninebot-e-special-edition-flame

Grab them while they're HOT!  Hehe, excuse the pun...

Might be worth me grabbing a second one for when I want to ride with someone.  Also, if you don't like the flame, you can always cover it.

Texas sales tax is 8.25 percent, no state income tax, so they make up for it with higher sales tax and larger population.

[Jurgen]

8 hours ago, steve454 said:

Texas sales tax is 8.25 percent, no state income tax, so they make up for it with higher sales tax and larger population.

 

In Belgium a hard-working middle class person pays a total income tax (social security; and national+regional+local tax) of roughly around 45-55% on income, and when you buy something you pay value added tax 21%. That makes a cumulative tax of 66% and higher. Also this is Belgium.

[esaj]

1 hour ago, Jurgen said:

 

In Belgium a hard-working middle class person pays a total income tax (social security; and national+regional+local tax) of roughly around 45-55% on income, and when you buy something you pay value added tax 21%. That makes a cumulative tax of 66% and higher. Also this is Belgium.

Wow, that's pretty high... although I don't think you can just sum up the tax rates for a cumulative rate? That would make the highest tax rate here something like >80%... With maximum income tax(50%) with the mandatory fixed rate payments that everyone pays (pension 5.70% + unemployment insurance 1.15%) + church tax (if you belong to one, I don't know exactly how much it is these days, something like 1-2%), you already arrive at around 57.85-58.85%. If you now add the 24% VAT on top of that, you arrive at 81.85-82.85%. Let's say that would be somewhat plausible. But where that way of calculating breaks down is if you'd assume the person uses all his income to buy gas, which has around 75% tax rate in Finland. 57.25% + 75% = 132.85%. So nope, you can't just add them together, you need further analysis what is being done with the money, and calculate the tax rate against the gross income before taxes... 

My current total income tax is about 35%, I think I'm something like middle class or "barely" upper middle class...

I think the "more correct way" of calculating the "average cumulative tax rate" is something like:

-Calculate an assumption of what the income of a mythical "average person" or "average family unit" is and what they spend their money on
-Take the average income tax rate, calculate how much taxes is paid from the income 
-Calculate the amount of taxes paid for different products etc. with their tax rates
-Sum up the income + other taxes (as money)
-Calculate the total amount of taxes paid vs. income

So as a very simplified example, let's just assume an income of 100€ (to keep calculation simple, of course the median gross here is something like 3300€/month nowadays, I think). Say that of that 100€, the spending goes something like this:
-25% income tax rate with all the payments (actually, for the median I think it's more like over 30%)
-40€ on products and services with tax rate of 24%
-40€ on products and services with tax rate of 14% (something like food stuffs and books...)
-20€ into savings or something that has no tax
Income tax is now 25€. 24% of 40€ is 9.6€. 14% of 40€ is 5.6€. Total taxes paid 25€ + 9.6€ + 5.6€ = 40.2€.

The total cumulative tax rate is simply taxes paid is simply paid taxes / gross income. Since the gross income was 100€, and 40.2€ was paid as taxes, you arrive into 40.2€ / 100€ = 40.2%.

Of course, this is very much simplified, there are so many different taxes (properties, cars, gas, energy, income, different VATs, income from financial assets like interests, dividends, profit from selling shares etc. etc.) and the income tax varies between municipalities, so that the "real way" of calculating that become much more complex. Not to mention that then in the "other end" you also get some deductions from your taxes...

 

 

[Jurgen]

2 hours ago, esaj said:

Wow, that's pretty high... although I don't think you can just sum up the tax rates for a cumulative rate? That would make the highest tax rate here something like >80%... With maximum income tax(50%) with the mandatory fixed rate payments that everyone pays (pension 5.70% + unemployment insurance 1.15%) + church tax (if you belong to one, I don't know exactly how much it is these days, something like 1-2%), you already arrive at around 57.85-58.85%. If you now add the 24% VAT on top of that, you arrive at 81.85-82.85%. Let's say that would be somewhat plausible. But where that way of calculating breaks down is if you'd assume the person uses all his income to buy gas, which has around 75% tax rate in Finland. 57.25% + 75% = 132.85%. So nope, you can't just add them together, you need further analysis what is being done with the money, and calculate the tax rate against the gross income before taxes... 

My current total income tax is about 35%, I think I'm something like middle class or "barely" upper middle class...

I think the "more correct way" of calculating the "average cumulative tax rate" is something like:

-Calculate an assumption of what the income of a mythical "average person" or "average family unit" is and what they spend their money on
-Take the average income tax rate, calculate how much taxes is paid from the income 
-Calculate the amount of taxes paid for different products etc. with their tax rates
-Sum up the income + other taxes (as money)
-Calculate the total amount of taxes paid vs. income

So as a very simplified example, let's just assume an income of 100€ (to keep calculation simple, of course the median gross here is something like 3300€/month nowadays, I think). Say that of that 100€, the spending goes something like this:
-25% income tax rate with all the payments (actually, for the median I think it's more like over 30%)
-40€ on products and services with tax rate of 24%
-40€ on products and services with tax rate of 14% (something like food stuffs and books...)
-20€ into savings or something that has no tax
Income tax is now 25€. 24% of 40€ is 9.6€. 14% of 40€ is 5.6€. Total taxes paid 25€ + 9.6€ + 5.6€ = 40.2€.

The total cumulative tax rate is simply taxes paid is simply paid taxes / gross income. Since the gross income was 100€, and 40.2€ was paid as taxes, you arrive into 40.2€ / 100€ = 40.2%.

Of course, this is very much simplified, there are so many different taxes (properties, cars, gas, energy, income, different VATs, income from financial assets like interests, dividends, profit from selling shares etc. etc.) and the income tax varies between municipalities, so that the "real way" of calculating that become much more complex. Not to mention that then in the "other end" you also get some deductions from your taxes...

 

 

I stand corrected ; I've just traveled for 11hour and quite a bit jet lagged. I actually calculated it the other way round, but never mind.

If you're self-employed you pay 21,5% social security tax, on the remaining you pay 30-50% tax; the general consensus is that you pay around 65-66% tax (I deducted the 21% in my previous calc), but it's a generalisation depending on income and region where  you live.

-65%,  on the remaining 35% when you buy something you pay Value Added Tax (for most goods) 21%. So if you make € 100, you can buy € 23 of product.(100%-(66%+7%)).

Im' not a tax expert, but as far as general conclusions go, we have in Belgium about the highest tax rate in the world.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that Belgian is at the top of the Panama Papers list, and that we have extreme excemption for multinational corporations (paying as low as 0,05% income tax).

I believe I've hijacked the thread a bit.....sorry about that

 

[esaj]

49 minutes ago, Jurgen said:

I stand corrected ; I've just traveled for 11hour and quite a bit jet lagged. I actually calculated it the other way round, but never mind.

If you're self-employed you pay 21,5% social security tax, on the remaining you pay 30-50% tax; the general consensus is that you pay around 65-66% tax (I deducted the 21% in my previous calc), but it's a generalisation depending on income and region where  you live.

-65%,  on the remaining 35% when you buy something you pay Value Added Tax (for most goods) 21%. So if you make € 100, you can buy € 23 of product.(100%-(66%+7%)).

Im' not a tax expert, but as far as general conclusions go, we have in Belgium about the highest tax rate in the world.

Probably, that is really high... guess the wages are then pretty high too.

49 minutes ago, Jurgen said:

Oh, and I forgot to mention that Belgian is at the top of the Panama Papers list, and that we have extreme excemption for multinational corporations (paying as low as 0,05% income tax).

Yeah, the tax-"planning" seems pretty common nowadays, Apple pays less than 2% world wide, probably something along those lines for all the big tech-companies, like Google, Facebook, Microsoft... many of them then keep the cash in off-shore bank accounts to prevent paying further taxes, and some even take out short-term loans instead of using their own cash, as they'd have to pay the income tax if bringing it "home".

49 minutes ago, Jurgen said:

I believe I've hijacked the thread a bit.....sorry about that

Don't worry about it, actually I think it was me who derailed it by starting to talk about the price differences   I'll split the tax-talk into another topic in a moment...

[steve454]

On 5/22/2016 at 4:24 AM, Jurgen said:

 

In Belgium a hard-working middle class person pays a total income tax (social security; and national+regional+local tax) of roughly around 45-55% on income, and when you buy something you pay value added tax 21%. That makes a cumulative tax of 66% and higher. Also this is Belgium.

Wow, I had no idea some countries tax rates were that much.  I knew England has a high tax rate but thought it was because it paid for everyone's healthcare.  I hope one day we will have it here, but then wages would probably have to go up.