Any Inherent danger of Power Pads?

[Unventor]

11 hours ago, Rawnei said:

It's one thing to have a preference but what some of you are doing in this thread is fear mongering.

I think the are several angles to this. I think it is important to view opinion in context. (So it is a long post here).

Mostly when pads came out it was to apply power harder or faster or so I saw pads. 

Since this was never a goal for me I developed a ridestyle that I didn't need pads at all. This is also what many describe as a free feel stand. But being cramped or locked into a ride position.

Being locked in do a few things to me. It give some control especially if going down a curb. But it also in some cases take away how I can balance out a unexpected situation. By this I mean I ride loose in knee and angle joint. This gives me other option to keep pedal contact in some situations. 

The important part here is some situations. The other situations I do my very best to avoid but that is not always possible.

Where I see pads are helpful are as support when we are not talking jump or power pads. 

There are pro and cons to almost everything we do in life so with this. I don't view it as fear mongering because some say the don't like pads or that they use different ways to how they ride. 

But to raise potential risk of either way of riding should lead to more people informed choice making. Instead ending up in a bad situation with the afterthought I never thought of that or if I only knew. Especially since EUCs now go faster that walk of or run of bail speeds.

Not all do 50+kmh rides, zigzaging in traffic, skateboard jump stunt styles. But some do. The question is what level of risk you are prepared to take. 

I don't ride as every time it is going to end bad. But I do ride with the back of my mind if it goes wrong now what will best Vs worst outcome be. So I decided to ride full MC gear but no wrist guards ( that is a different debate) and with my V14 stock set of pads with wide space.

I am testing it out but my knee problems and how mu feet feels at 25km+ rides means I have not fully developed a perfect setup. But I do ride faster for 16" model than I ever done before. 45kmh warning, top speed set to 50kmh. Tiltback occur gradually up until warning. I do go off curbs from time to time but not stairs.

So in short I ride to get from A to B. Sometimes for the relation other times of need. It can be roads, bike lanes or trails.

I do not ride to get a rollercoaster trillride or base jump parrasuit adirilin sensation.

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

2 hours ago, UniVehje said:

I don’t have any skateparks near me but otherwise you can add me as someone who likes to advance and do technical and serious riding without (big) pads. Without there being a competition, it’s about challenging myself and reaching my limits. I can do that very well without pads. There are ways to control the wheel without being locked in.

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I don't doubt you do off-road or that you can do off-road to various degrees without pads but if you did very technical off-road, like me and my friends did yesterday for example, it wouldn't really be feasible without pads, we're doing some pretty steep climbs and downhill that has both rocks and roots and you need to be able to leverage your wheel perfectly to navigate, to off-load, to bonk all of that which you really can't do without pads to that degree, if you ever visit Stockholm we can show you. 😁

And even so doing less technical off-road pads are still a huge plus to have.

That we're discussing their feasibility and utility is a bit bonkers to me.

  

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

Of course pads have another positive function that isn't being discussed here much - protecting the wheel from side impacts and the good they do in mitigating roll damage on those occasions when your wheel goes bouncing off down the road without you, and in those minor side-over drops that happen from time to time. So that's quite a big thing in their favour. I have seen a fair few videos where the pads just fall off in a crash (I guess the ones that are adhered with non-brand velcro), but mine have never done that, and have gone wherever the wheel did, and therefore helped.

Another way in which pads can make our lives more dangerous is in the transition from standing to seated riding and back again. My Grizzlas (in ideal position for standing riding) really get in the way of that, almost to the point where I don't really want to do it much, and my transitions can be quite wobbly if I knock them whilst sitting down.

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They sure do, another positive thing is that they give you a reference point you always know how your legs are positioned by feel.

I found the perfect setup for myself that works well both sitting and standing and they are not in the way for me.

That is good. I am still trying to get to this point without being in a 

But I am not there yet. 😜

[Rawnei]

8 minutes ago, Unventor said:

That is good. I am still trying to get to this point without being in a 

But I am not there yet. 😜

And see this is all about your fear, you can position pads anyway you like and it doesn't even have to feel like you are locked.

[Unventor]

6 hours ago, Rawnei said:

And see this is all about your fear, you can position pads anyway you like and it doesn't even have to feel like you are locked.

You still don't get it. I don't fear pads.

My knees start having pains if they become too stationary. So whenever I am at a red traffic light I will be rolling my feets. Lifting the heel shifting weight to the toes and bending the knees. This to get circulation in the feet and knee. I can also do it when riding. But not with pads locking me in place.

 

[Rawnei]

14 minutes ago, Unventor said:

You still don't get it. I don't fear pads.

My knees start having pains if they become too stationary. So whenever I am at a red traffic light I will be rolling my feets. Lifting the heel shifting weight to the toes and bending the knees. This to get circulation in the feet and knee. I can also do it when riding. But not with pads locking me in place.

 

That's pretty normal, alot of people do this, pads will allow you to do this if you install them to allow for it.

[UniVehje]

11 hours ago, Rawnei said:

but if you did very technical off-road, like me and my friends did yesterday for example, it wouldn't really be feasible without pads, we're doing some pretty steep climbs and downhill that has both rocks and roots and you need to be able to leverage your wheel perfectly to navigate, to off-load, to bonk all of that which you really can't do without pads to that degree, if you ever visit Stockholm we can show you. 😁

I will come to Stockholm soon! I already had plans earlier but covid cancelled them. 

I don’t disagree about pads being helpful in certain situations. I just don’t think most riders need those big pads in most situations. And I think they hinder development if you never have ridden without them. And when it comes to these steep off-road climbs, I just did one today. Mind you, I can make my Lynx loose traction without pads. So I don’t know what benefit the big pad setup would have given me if the bottle neck was tire traction. 

And to be clear, there’s probably not that much difference in our riding style. I also get leverage from the wheel body when needed. I just do that only when needed by grabbing the wheel with my knees. The benefit of my minimal pad setup is that they are not in the way when seated and my legs can move freely. It’s really just a matter of preference in the end. 

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, UniVehje said:

I will come to Stockholm soon! I already had plans earlier but covid cancelled them. 

I don’t disagree about pads being helpful in certain situations. I just don’t think most riders need those big pads in most situations. And I think they hinder development if you never have ridden without them. And when it comes to these steep off-road climbs, I just did one today. Mind you, I can make my Lynx loose traction without pads. So I don’t know what benefit the big pad setup would have given me if the bottle neck was tire traction. 

And to be clear, there’s probably not that much difference in our riding style. I also get leverage from the wheel body when needed. I just do that only when needed by grabbing the wheel with my knees. The benefit of my minimal pad setup is that they are not in the way when seated and my legs can move freely. It’s really just a matter of preference in the end. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you or anyone else what to do, to use pads or not use them, just refuting some arguments against them that I feel is wrong, were all adult who can make our own decisions.

Let me know when you're coming to Stockholm!

Edited May 4 by Rawnei

[Aztek]

This topic got me thinking and experimenting with the position of my grizzla pads on my begode master.

What I find is that the further away are the front pads from my legs and feet, the better control I have since they don't restrict me.

As the master is a heavy wheel, the jump pads are useless for me. I can't jump and take the wheel with me. The most I can do with my body weight (65-68 kg) is to add a centimeter or two to the jump.

The front power pads are good to lean on to give more torque while climbing a steep way, but if they are too close they restrict the legs' movements.

Basically, what I find is, that I can go without the front pads. I leave them on, away from me to protect the wheel when falling for the price of standing in the way of my legs during emergency.

[Rawnei]

29 minutes ago, Aztek said:

This topic got me thinking and experimenting with the position of my grizzla pads on my begode master.

What I find is that the further away are the front pads from my legs and feet, the better control I have since they don't restrict me.

As the master is a heavy wheel, the jump pads are useless for me. I can't jump and take the wheel with me. The most I can do with my body weight (65-68 kg) is to add a centimeter or two to the jump.

The front power pads are good to lean on to give more torque while climbing a steep way, but if they are too close they restrict the legs' movements.

Basically, what I find is, that I can go without the front pads. I leave them on, away from me to protect the wheel when falling for the price of standing in the way of my legs during emergency.

Yes, you don't want the pads to restrict you but you can set up the front pads to give you support only on steep climbs where they are very very helpful.

[Aztek]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

give you support only on steep climbs where they are very very helpful.

Exactly. That's what I did today.

[Cam]

On 5/4/2024 at 12:29 AM, Rawnei said:

Don't see how these type of statements are supposed to be some kind of merit, anyone who wants to advance and learn more technical riding uses pads, nobody who ever wantes to do serious offroading in the forest or jumping in the skatepark would keep doing it without pads.

I don't know what you are replying to but it isn't my statement.
My first post specifically mentioned I don't do technical riding that requires pads, which means I recognize some technical riding can need them.

I was replying to you saying that pads keep people from being bumped off the wheel, and I will reformulate myself: [save technical riding (as implied in my first post)] (and I believe we're not focusing on off-road here) proper riding technique will keep you on the wheel without pads to hold you there. It is my opinion that abuse of pads (like learning to ride with them directly) will hamper your riding skills. That doesn't mean they don't have their place.

edit: I believe many pad users (random Joe that don't specifically do technical riding) use pads to [accelerate / brake / not wobble] without having to learn it properly. I believe suspensions + pads is creating a generation of riders who will go stiff kneed over bumps and get thrown off if they dont have their helping gear. This is just my opinion.

Edited May 5 by Cam

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, Cam said:

proper riding technique will keep you on the wheel without pads to hold you there. It is my opinion that abuse of pads (like learning to ride with them directly) will hamper your riding skills. That doesn't mean they don't have their place.

I understand what you are saying but you're disregarding people doing mistakes, even if you have good technique and a good stance anyone can make a mistake, all it takes is to not pay attention for one second in the wrong moment hitting an unexpected pothole or a bump throwing you off balance, not even the most experienced riders are immune to making a mistake since we're all humans, in this situation pads can be very helpful and even prevent a crash.

But really it doesn't matter this becomes a straw argument from whichever angle we discuss it, it's not the main purpose of pads and not a deal-breaker to have or not to have them and if you disagree with me that pads are helpful in the situation I described above that is fine.

The original question of the topic was "Are pads inherently dangerous" to which I would say no, but there is also the follow up question "Or when choosing the kind of power pads and their placement on the wheel?" to which the answer is yes you have to put some thought into the placement of your pads and some pads are more restrictive than others but all of that also boils down to rider preference and experience.

[The Brahan Seer]

this is how Kuji rolls...

 

[UniVehje]

55 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

this is how Kuji rolls...

Looks like a minimal setup when he doesn’t need to do tricks and superman accelerations for youtube views. They talked about handle being uncomfortable spot to grab for leverage. I noticed the same and put padding there. It’s now a good spot grab if needed. The tester also seemed to bunny hop curbs without jump pads.

[Rawnei]

4 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Looks like a minimal setup when he doesn’t need to do tricks and superman accelerations for youtube views. They talked about handle being uncomfortable spot to grab for leverage. I noticed the same and put padding there. It’s now a good spot grab if needed. The tester also seemed to bunny hop curbs without jump pads.

Lynx has built in footlocks.

[UniVehje]

3 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Lynx has built in footlocks.

Good point. Looks like those were in place. 

[Aztek]

7 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

this is how Kuji rolls...

 

The illustrative fact is that Kuji doesn't care to review new models EUCs anymore.

He said it during the last reviews: he doesn't  find them interesting.

Edited May 6 by Aztek

[Funky]

28 minutes ago, Aztek said:

The illustrative fact is that Kuji doesn't care to review new models EUCs anymore.

He said it during the last reviews: he doesn't  find them interesting.

What interesting is there - every single new wheel is a copy of a copy.

Review one and you have reviewed all of them. Only if one is doing disassembly videos, showing every single nut/bolt - that's were a reviews are now. Talking about how good the ride is, or how smooth the suspension is - that's meaningless, because same can be said about all of them.. Also everyone's concept about those things are different.

Simple ride videos without any talking, showing wheel in action are better.  

[The Brahan Seer]

19 hours ago, Aztek said:

The illustrative fact is that Kuji doesn't care to review new models EUCs anymore.

He said it during the last reviews: he doesn't  find them interesting.

True. This vlog illustrates what set up he is currently using in regards to pads and how he rides which could be of interest. 

[Asphalt]

Check out the comment by Tristan Sean Grimm in this Facebook Reel of a wheel spinning out of control.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/949842853293528

[Rawnei]

6 hours ago, Asphalt said:

Check out the comment by Tristan Sean Grimm in this Facebook Reel of a wheel spinning out of control.

https://www.facebook.com/reel/949842853293528

His wheel has footlock attached to the shell of the wheel.

The whole situation could be avoided if he used correct settings.

[Panzer04]

I can respect not wanting to ride with pads, but the fact of the matter is that the larger the wheel diameter and the heavier the wheel, the more obligatory they become to exercise good control authority. Your capabilities without pads are just less.

If you run the numbers on how you accelerate and brake with an EUC, you'll find that smaller and lighter wheels generally don't need pads (as much) because a small weight offset forwards or backwards is enough to provoke a large acceleration/braking response - In other words, it's very hard to fall off a small EUC by simply leaning forwards or backwards (at the extreme, for example, you'd probably overpower an Mten4 first before falling off the front). On a big wheel, it's very easy to lean forward, and without pads or squeezing the wheel between your legs, you'd simply fall off before the wheel accelerated hard enough to "catch" you.

For large and heavy wheels, though, pads are basically mandatory to get good performance. At a minimum, everyone should be using brake pads. IMO, good "acceleration" pads are also a good idea, even if you aren't doing offroad, since there are situations where having the ability to lean into something and get more torque can help control the EUC.

A reasonably close foot-lock (it doesn't have to be insanely tight) is also a good idea, to reduce the chance of you being bumped off the pedals and losing control. These risks are admittedly reduced by good terrain, sensible speeds etc, but nonetheless they are reduced by using pads. Perhaps the risk in a crash is higher, but IMO this would be more than compensated by the reduced risk of a crash altogether. I definitely sympathise with fears about increased risk in a crash - I've had my foot partially twisted before it escaped a foot pad before (fortunately uninjured) during offroad trailriding.

If you're a new rider, or you have a smaller wheel, then I do think the returns of pads are smaller. New riders crash a lot, so overtight pads pose a larger risk (and they have less experience safely disengaging), and they also don't know how to take advantage of the increased control afforded by pads in the first place. Smaller and/or lighter wheels also don't really need pads to get enough control like you'd need for a 40kg 20" wheel.

Those going padless on large wheels will be compensating by squeezing the wheel - this is certainly viable, but I find it chafes on my legs to do that constantly. If you don't have pads you have to be doing this to avoid falling off while applying torque.