Popular Post BKW Posted February 28 Popular Post Share Posted February 28 (edited) I'm not writing this post to try and dissuade anyone from riding EUCs. I think it's awesome so many people have found pleasure riding them. I just wanted to share my personal perspective on why I've lost trust in EUCs, and why I view them as dangerous. Take this post for what you will I suppose... I've kind of wrote about this not long ago on the forum. I've had some very strange experiences lately that have really killed my trust in EUCs and how I view them. Maybe about 3 weeks ago a few very strange things happened with 3 of my EUCs consecutively. The worst of this time was when my Commander Pro blew part of its battery, smoke starting coming out, and it freaked me the f*** out. Not long after that, I change the headlight for a smaller amperage headlight than the original Sherman Max headlight -- so it should be safe to do -- and smoke starts coming either from the wire or part of the control board. Before that, while trolleying the Sherman Max, twice it had randomly started to violently shake, turn off, then proceed to free-spin until maxed out speed and wouldn't turn off on both occasions. Before that, the KS16X tells me "overpowered" when charging, or overpowered while idling, etc... and many other strange things that had happened with these EUCs that I haven't mentioned... I will say, these problems didn't occur until either a long while (13K+ miles with the Sherman Max), or due to my own stupidity, like riding in rainy weather. When the EUCs work as they should, they are awesome. I've found them to be fairly maintenance-free for how many electrical components they have.. Even with all that said, when something goes wrong, it can go wrong BADLY if you're not careful. My negative experiences with my EUCs have shown me how powerful and unpredictable these things can be, and I'm mainly talking about dealing with the electronics. It's faulty electronics and/or the batteries that terrifies me, because when these things go bad very unexpected things can occur. Do something strange with the electronics on your EUC and you could have a firebomb on your hands, quite literally. Have faulty electronics, or have a component go out while riding, and you're likely to break some bones and/or lose your teeth hitting the cements at high speeds. Faulty electronics can do weird things while charging, and charging indoors is the most convenient way to burn your house down and kill those inside of it. High volts, high amps, very powerful machines that can decide to go haywire riding through a freakin' wall.. I'm playing devil's advocate here, but these things happen. I've had a lot of them happen to me actually. I'm extremely lucky I didn't get a runaway fire happen with my Commander Pro when the battery blew. Would have been another apartment-fire statistic in NYC, I'm sure. Ideally, always leave your wheels outside your home. Always charge them outside your home. Don't leave them plugged in overnight. If your EUC starts acting funny, be extremely cautious. I WILL NOT mess with the electronics indoors and turn it on. I will only work on the electronics outdoors. Way too paranoid about it now. All the things I've mentioned not to do is what I did, and because of that I'm super lucky nothing extremely bad has happened. I know the stats on fires and the like are less and less nowadays with EUCs, but these things seem like ideal candidates to have hazards happen, especially when electronic components go bad. Many people have worked on their EUCs for years and no issues, and I know they are reading this and don't feel any less safe or concerned. It's very likely my own ineptitude that has caused the issues I've experienced, so I won't discredit that either. Perhaps it was these experiences I've had lately with my EUCs that has given me a wake-up call. I don't trust these things anymore. I am terrified to work on them indoors. I am scared to charge them indoors. I am scared to trolley them due to my experience with the Sherman Max. I am scared to ride them due to cutting out. I view them as extremely dangerous now and not worth the risk to store indoors, charge indoors, or ride without being afraid of something strange happening, because I've experienced all these things. Doesn't seem worth the risk anymore. Once again, many people haven't experienced negative things with the EUCs. Many people have ultimate trust in them. That's awesome, and I know what I say won't change their minds and that's not what I'm trying to do, just wanted to share I guess. Thanks for reading, and stay safe Edited February 28 by BKW 5 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) So stop using EUC and anything that has electronics/batteries. How hard is that? Your house can burn down because of rat that chew powerline.. Do you ever think about that? I think not.. Any electrical device cord can be broken over long period of use and it also can start fire. Some young next-door brat was playing with matches.. The meal you ate at restaurant could have rat poison in there. Because the chef had very bad day and he felt like killing some random person. Some psychopath, druggy, or metal person suddenly start attacking you, because you looked at him the wrong way. Random car kills you while you where crossing crosswalk. But we don't really think about these possibilities. There is endless possibilities that can hurt/kill you. Only thing you can do it stop using EUC altogether, if you are so afraid. At least in this case it's a option you-yourself can mitigate the danger. The rest i mention is out of your control.. I won't lie - i also don't trust EUC 100%. Heck each ride i think i'm gonna fall, because it may stop working mid ride. (One day it will stop working - i know that 100%, as time goes on something will break, like battery, motherboard.) I also have build "fireproof" storage for my wheel. It shows i also think about fire and the damage it can do to my room. (Yes room, i live in brick/concrete apartment.) At least when everything burns down, i can replace everything with about 10.000$ As for my safety, or others.. I don't really care about myself, other little bit. Edited February 28 by Funky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Planemo Posted February 28 Popular Post Share Posted February 28 And yet many will still claim EUC's are as safe as bicycles lol. You're right re the power source, these wheels are packing huge amounts of power, more than many people realise. And the high voltages we are seeing now need extreme caution when working anywhere inside. And again you're right re water ingress. I simply don't trust ANY wheel currently made to be safe long term if used in rain. At the very least it's likely the wheel bearings will suffer. At worst...well theres your firebomb. To date, none of my wheels have been ridden in rain and I don't intend to until I see some proper work done on sealing. I know people do it, and it may take weeks, months maybe even a year for symptoms to arise. But arise they will. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 It looks like you have thought this through, and I believe you have made the right decision for yourself. It makes sense to get out now while you are still ahead. At a later time, things may change favourably for you to come back into the fold, or not. I agree with your thought processes and decision. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Planemo said: And yet many will still claim EUC's are as safe as bicycles lol. You're right re the power source, these wheels are packing huge amounts of power, more than many people realise. And the high voltages we are seeing now need extreme caution when working anywhere inside. They do - don't they. Crazy right.. EUC's can't even be put anywhere near bicycles! More or less EUC = Live Grenade. 17 minutes ago, Planemo said: And again you're right re water ingress. I simply don't trust ANY wheel currently made to be safe long term if used in rain. At the very least it's likely the wheel bearings will suffer. At worst...well theres your firebomb. To date, none of my wheels have been ridden in rain and I don't intend to until I see some proper work done on sealing. I know people do it, and it may take weeks, months maybe even a year for symptoms to arise. But arise they will. I often ride in rain.. (As it's my commuter. I need to be in place on time.) And i think winter is even worse, all that snow slushy. As wheel well gets packet full of snow and it melts over 7hrs.. More or less Tire/Motor in covered in water all that time. Helps if you have siliconed motor shut and exchanged bearing grease for marine one, also added a dab of grease all around the bearing itself. 3 years riding whole year round, no problems so far.. Bearings also are fine. I do use "shower cap" over my wheel when it's raining. Have even ridden in heavy rain storms, where one's undies even get moist. Edited February 28 by Funky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Cerbera Posted February 28 Popular Post Share Posted February 28 (edited) 2 hours ago, Funky said: I often ride in rain.. (As it's my commuter. I need to be in place on time.) And i think winter is even worse, all that snow slushy. As wheel well gets packet full of snow and it melts over 7hrs.. More or less Tire/Motor in covered in water all that time. Helps if you have siliconed motor shut and exchanged bearing grease for marine one, also added a dab of grease all around the bearing itself. 3 years riding whole year round, no problems so far.. Bearings also are fine. I do use "shower cap" over my wheel when it's raining. Have even ridden in heavy rain storms, where one's undies even get moist. Yeah, same here. I only normally avoid heavy rain by choice but occasionally get caught out in that too. Light drizzle I find to be unproblematic, and like Funky have a lightweight weatherproof rain cover for the top of the wheel and have sealed all the important bits underneath and silconed my rim / have LiquiMoly marine everywhere there could be grease. All my battery cases have taped seams and screws - no water is getting in there other than through condensation, and the room I keep my wheels in isn't warm enough to cause it.. In addition to that, never leave it lying on its side after the rain and regularly check for any sign of water ingress. I do all that, and have never had any water-based problems in just over 8 years of riding. Not counting the bearings, and I already have replacements and printed covers for those next time they come a-knocking... This is partly why I like Begode's, despite everything. If you have taken the time to finish off their builds to better withstand weather they are surprisingly reliable and tanky about surviving all sorts of conditions that cause other wheels to variously shit themselves... But I also have full sympathy with OP's point of view, and have days myself where confidence is... lacking. The days I read about fatalities, or overly harsh / unnecessary police action, or feel particularly oppressed by the archaic law, or am upset by a rare negative interaction with pedestrians, even a furious dog whose owner I have annoyed by merely being there; all these things regularly give me pause for thought, make me question what I am doing, and make me look forward to rides slightly less. For now, the joy of riding is still able to win over all that on most of those days, and when I return I am usually glad I went. The nature of these machines means it takes months to gain confidence in them but only seconds of weirdness to shatter it utterly. And it is understandable why some events are worrying enough to leave a permanent black cloud that perhaps can never be overcome. I can see a (hopefully still distant) day coming when I no longer feel up to the challenge of keeping these things in safe rideable condition and there will be a day when getting dressed up to the nines in riot gear to go to the shops seems an effort too far... until then I gotta keep having as much fun on these as I can while I still have my health, skills and the inclination to do it ! Edited February 28 by Cerbera 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Yeah with all the work you guys have done it should help a lot. PITA though to have to do all that but I get it if you ride through the manky months. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brahan Seer Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 @BKW I will miss your food delivery adventures. It was very interesting and entertaining seeing you navigate through NYC, visiting all these different shops and customers abodes and your take on life. Hopefully EUC's will improve enough in the future for you to come back if the desire returns. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpong Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 BKW, you are correct to feel this way. if you put aside or ignore all the fucking hype surrounding all recently announced eucs, and just look at the problems riders have found with these new eucs, you wonder what the hell is going on in peoples minds BEFORE they buy any euc ??? are we purposely putting ourselves in a state of denial and blindly believe "the manufacturer will fix that, no problem...". i was going to purchase a new euc for the past almost 2 seasons. what i see unfolding during these almost 2 seasons is simply unreal. it makes me want to quite riding altogether cause i cant trust the manufacturers, i cant trust the various youtube videographers and the shit they sling in their videos, and finally, im tired of reading about stats and technical information that are just that, information. for once, just once, it would be refreshing to see a manufacturer offer a device to the public that works, doesnt dump the rider face first into the asphalt, and doesnt make me regret i ever got into this past time to begin with. its insane to have manufacturers sell a device thats not 100% safe, its insane for retailers to keep marketing and selling these devices and not care about what they are really selling. the only retailer i find that is trying to be as proactive as possible is ewheels jason. but there again, he can only get as much from the manufacturer as the manufacturer will give.... im still not buying anything, and this 3rd season for me, perhaps nothing as well. it will be interesting to see what injuries occur from all these new high speed eucs and 1st batch test dummies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterwheel Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 I've had no serious issues with my older wheels (3 years old or more). Stick with those and wait a couple of years for the issues with all the new beast wheels to get well and truly sorted. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpong Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 11 minutes ago, winterwheel said: I've had no serious issues with my older wheels (3 years old or more). Stick with those and wait a couple of years for the issues with all the new beast wheels to get well and truly sorted. i damn agree 100%... my old tesla V2 of 5 years still running and has not dumped me and its a gotway product. i have a older solowheel glide 3 (i think thats a V8) which i always rode with tiltback and it never cutout on me.... hopefully it will get sorted out with the new eucs... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 (edited) On 2/28/2024 at 3:07 PM, bpong said: its insane to have manufacturers sell a device thats not 100% safe, its insane for retailers to keep marketing and selling these devices and not care about what they are really selling. Yup, it appears no manufacturers can afford to do extensive testing of new models before release. In addition, not buying the first two batches may not be enough, if one doesn't want to face disappointments and hassles. Buying wheels that have been out in the market for about the one year seemed to work out better. I bought both of my S22 and Abrams about the one year mark, and I have not encountered many defects or other issues. The issues I have faced, were already known when I bought the wheels. And the firmware was stable. Edited March 3 by techyiam 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 I'd go back to something like a V10f or 16x, and only keep one EUC until your trust returns. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Cerbera Posted February 29 Popular Post Share Posted February 29 (edited) 6 hours ago, bpong said: its insane to have manufacturers sell a device thats not 100% safe, its insane for retailers to keep marketing and selling these devices and not care about what they are really selling. But what is 100% safe ? A plane ? A paraglider ? Cars ? Skis ? Are any of these things flawless, or somehow immune to human error in their design, construction or use ? Is history not widely populated with terrible initial implementations of ideas that showed promise, (and a good many that didn't even show that!) but would later become refined and improved as the decades rolled on ? Donning my 'devil's advocate trousers' briefly, the people who make EUCs have not had <100 years of cumulative experience doing it like the manufacturers of nearly every other type of transport there is, and I think it is unrealistic at this relatively early stage in their development to hold them to comparable standards with the industries that have decades of experience, innovation and accumulated improvement behind them. They stand on the shoulders of giants - whereas our guys are the first to stand up at all. When has the first instance of anything been perfection ? Next, we could think about people's awareness when they enter the hobby. When people buy a skateboard do they recognize there is a risk of them falling off it ? I'd say they do, on the whole. When people decide that paragliding is the sport for them, do they accept that the punishment for negligence by them, or failing equipment could be death ? I reckon they do. And I'd say that most people who buy an EUC also accept the possibility of crashing before they hand over the money, and they do so regardless. If the risk wasn't somehow evident, the very first experienced rider they spoke to would surely point it out, no ? Certainly a forum like this would, and frequently does ! Now, of the people that do buy first batch, new model machines - how many of those are uninformed about the 'extra' risks they take ? I'm gonna guess that's quite a low number too. Do people really spend 3 grand+ on a mode of transport they know nothing about without doing some basic research first ? Sensible people do a shitload of research, and if they do that, it is virtually impossible for them to remain uninformed about the risks, and they are then free to decide if those risks are acceptable to them or not. For most people here specifically we have decided that it IS worth the risks, and although most of us have doubts and worries about aspects of our wheels, they are evidently not sufficient (with the notable exceptions above!) to stop us doing it. We can choose not to do it, or we can choose to take the risks, mitigate them as best we can and campaign for improvement. My vote, for now is with the latter. Manufacturers have shown time and again that they try and give us what we, the community ask for. And we really did spend the first 5 years of this hobby constantly asking for more power, more speed, more innovation, and we wanted it now, now now. Is it really so much of a surprise that manufacturers responded how they did ? More recently we have started asking for better safety and build quality and QC, and what do you know - that's what we're beginning to get now... This industry is climbing a slow, steady ladder of improvement - I just think it's merely a bit down to timing and luck that our generations were there for the very start of it, when things were what will later be referred to on historical comedy panel shows as 'a bit ropey at the start' ?! You know, like we all find Penny farthings hilarious now ?! Edited February 29 by Cerbera 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKW Posted February 29 Author Share Posted February 29 (edited) 9 hours ago, Cerbera said: Yeah, same here. I only normally avoid heavy rain by choice but occasionally get caught out in that too. Light drizzle I find to be unproblematic, and like Funky have a lightweight weatherproof rain cover for the top of the wheel and have sealed all the important bits underneath and silconed my rim / have LiquiMoly marine everywhere there could be grease. All my battery cases have taped seams and screws - no water is getting in there other than through condensation, and the room I keep my wheels in isn't warm enough to cause it.. In addition to that, never leave it lying on its side after the rain and regularly check for any sign of water ingress. I do all that, and have never had any water-based problems in just over 8 years of riding. Not counting the bearings, and I already have replacements and printed covers for those next time they come a-knocking... This is partly why I like Begode's, despite everything. If you have taken the time to finish off their builds to better withstand weather they are surprisingly reliable and tanky about surviving all sorts of conditions that cause other wheels to variously shit themselves... But I also have full sympathy with OP's point of view, and have days myself where confidence is... lacking. The days I read about fatalities, or overly harsh / unnecessary police action, or feel particularly oppressed by the archaic law, or am upset by a rare negative interaction with pedestrians, even a furious dog whose owner I have annoyed by merely being there; all these things regularly give me pause for thought, make me question what I am doing, and make me look forward to rides slightly less. For now, the joy of riding is still able to win over all that on most of those days, and when I return I am usually glad I went. The nature of these machines means it takes months to gain confidence in them but only seconds of weirdness to shatter it utterly. And it is understandable why some events are worrying enough to leave a permanent black cloud that perhaps can never be overcome. I can see a (hopefully still distant) day coming when I no longer feel up to the challenge of keeping these things in safe rideable condition and there will be a day when getting dressed up to the nines in riot gear to go to the shops seems an effort too far... until then I gotta keep having as much fun on these as I can while I still have my health, skills and the inclination to do it ! Well said. The issue with my CP was due to my own stupidity. I rode it in light rain for an extended amount of time, which I avoided for a while but needed to work and pushed my luck I guess. Then, when the charging board fuse blew, I bought an EX30 charging board -- which is basically the same board for the CP, or at least that's what I assumed -- and when I installed the new charging board THAT'S when the battery blew, so I think it was either the board or a combination of the water and the new board or something. So yeah, definitely not blaming anyone else but myself on that one as those that have tested this wheel gave great feedback (credit to Eevee's tear down video). You've ridden your wheels for 8 years and no bad experiences. This says a lot of great things about what you're doing. But you're right, one weird thing happens and it kills your confidence in these things. I remember the first time the Sherman Max did the free-spinning thing, I was absolutely terrified to ride it home and took some time to gain confidence again. Add all these weird things up over time and the lack of trust and fear grows. This is what has happened with me. The worst thing I can imagine CAN happen (the EUC catches fire and burns down my apartment complex in Manhattan killing residents inside). This simply does not seem worth it to me in my situation, not even to risk anymore, which I have, which is crazy now I feel the way I do -- hypocritical in a sense, really. But I totally agree and understand why you feel the way you do, and your logic is completely relatable. Awesome man, have fun Edited February 29 by BKW 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterwheel Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 On the (few, thankfully) occasions in the early days when I did crash it definitely took a day or two sometimes to get my wheel mojo going again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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