YCC Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Hi guys, do you have any idea of the ceiling of charging voltage of EUC? Begode ET max and GT pro announced their charging voltage are 168V, will the 168V charging voltage is the ceiling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 It's 4.2V per li.ion cell. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post meepmeepmayer Posted January 21 Popular Post Share Posted January 21 If you build a battery with a certain (max) voltage, you can always charge it to that voltage. (If you didn't, you could not charge it fully.) So there is no ceiling by itself. Are you maybe asking if there will be higher voltages than 168V in the future? Going by the past, it's certainly possible. Though 168V is new right now, and I don't expect an increase coming soon. - Higher voltages are achieved by putting more battery cells in series inside the battery packs. As you increase the voltage, first you lose flexibility in what battery sizes you can have (the minimum battery size increases, and the entire battery must be multiples of that). At some point it's just so many cells that it gets too heavy/expensive to make sense for what you want. Or maybe such wheels will be so fast that the air resistance makes it pointless to have even higher voltages (= speeds possible). That's the practical ceiling - at some point higher voltages don't make enough sense to use them. For example, a 100V wheel has 24 cells in series to achieve 100V. 24 cells have (roughly) 450Wh, so any 100V wheel battery size must come in multiples of 450Wh. This is how you get 1800Wh (4x450Wh) as a standard battery size such wheels have. Other sizes would be 900Wh (2x450), 1350Wh (3x), 2250Wh (5x), and so on (450Wh increments). With 134V instead (32 cells in series), you get around 600Wh as minimum battery size, and typical wheels have 2400Wh (4*600Wh). Other possible battery sizes are 1200Wh, 1800Wh, 3000Wh, 3600Wh, and so on (600Wh increments). 168V wheels are 40 cells in series, which means multiples of about 750Wh. A typical size is 3000Wh (4x750). You could also have 1500Wh, 2250Wh, etc. So you see you have less flexibility in what battery sizes you can have when you increase the voltage, especially when you want small batteries. The biggest battery wheel is the Monster Pro, a 134V wheel, with 8*32 cells in its battery packs. You could put the cells all in series to get 1075.2V. So if you want to have a 1075V wheel, the minimum battery size would be 4800Wh, and the next option would be twice that (9600Wh). So you couldn't build a light and cheap wheel with 1075V. Such a wheel will never be 1075V with current technology. You could still charge at 1075V, no problem (never mind what crazy charger that would be) 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCC Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 4 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: If you build a battery with a certain (max) voltage, you can always charge it to that voltage. (If you didn't, you could not charge it fully.) So there is no ceiling by itself. Are you maybe asking if there will be higher voltages than 168V in the future? Going by the past, it's certainly possible. Though 168V is new right now, and I don't expect an increase coming soon. - Higher voltages are achieved by putting more battery cells in series inside the battery packs. As you increase the voltage, first you lose flexibility in what battery sizes you can have (the minimum battery size increases, and the entire battery must be multiples of that). At some point it's just so many cells that it gets too heavy/expensive to make sense for what you want. Or maybe such wheels will be so fast that the air resistance makes it pointless to have even higher voltages (= speeds possible). That's the practical ceiling - at some point higher voltages don't make enough sense to use them. For example, a 100V wheel has 24 cells in series to achieve 100V. 24 cells have (roughly) 450Wh, so any 100V wheel battery size must come in multiples of 450Wh. This is how you get 1800Wh (4x450Wh) as a standard battery size such wheels have. Other sizes would be 900Wh (2x450), 1350Wh (3x), 2250Wh (5x), and so on (450Wh increments). With 134V instead (32 cells in series), you get around 600Wh as minimum battery size, and typical wheels have 2400Wh (4*600Wh). Other possible battery sizes are 1200Wh, 1800Wh, 3000Wh, 3600Wh, and so on (600Wh increments). 168V wheels are 40 cells in series, which means multiples of about 750Wh. A typical size is 3000Wh (4x750). You could also have 1500Wh, 2250Wh, etc. So you see you have less flexibility in what battery sizes you can have when you increase the voltage, especially when you want small batteries. The biggest battery wheel is the Monster Pro, a 134V wheel, with 8*32 cells in its battery packs. You could put the cells all in series to get 1075.2V. So if you want to have a 1075V wheel, the minimum battery size would be 4800Wh, and the next option would be twice that (9600Wh). So you couldn't build a light and cheap wheel with 1075V. Such a wheel will never be 1075V with current technology. You could still charge at 1075V, no problem (never mind what crazy charger that would be) You are truly professional. The next level voltage will be 201V with multiple of 900WH, and be 235V with multiple of 1050WH battery package. Let me guess that the 201V will be the maximum charging voltage in EUC world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbb Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 High voltage DC is all fun and games until "you cannot let go." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 1 hour ago, YCC said: Hi guys, do you have any idea of the ceiling of charging voltage of EUC? What do you mean by "ceiling"? Like technical limits? Or prediction of future developments in the next 5 years? Or 20 years? Or 50 years? Why are you asking, what is the relevance of this question? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, YCC said: Let me guess that the 201V will be the maximum charging voltage in EUC world. It will definitely be reached, I don't doubt it, if only because Begode some day will want to be first to have a voltage starting with a "2". Not sure if they will stop there. Why should they? Hey, 200V is basically just two 100V wheels glued together, after all They (and everyone else) might go higher for the latest performance wheels. I guess we'll see a higher spread of voltages in the future. We already have new 84V wheels (S16) and new 168V wheels (twice that) nowadays, maybe the voltage zoo will increase its size further in the future. Voltage can be chosen according to the type of wheel the manufacturer wants to build. Speed wheels will still push to new voltages, and everything else goes for flexibility and price and weight when choosing a fitting voltage. If you can build a high voltage board, going lower (if it didn't already happen on the way to the higher voltage) is easy, after all. Edited January 21 by meepmeepmayer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCC Posted January 21 Author Share Posted January 21 5 hours ago, Mono said: What do you mean by "ceiling"? Like technical limits? Or prediction of future developments in the next 5 years? Or 20 years? Or 50 years? Why are you asking, what is the relevance of this question? Good question, thanks for your asking. I am going to buy a third-party fast charger for EUC charging, which it has a range of voltage. In respect to saving money, I would like to know the next 5 years generation of charging voltage of EUC since the fast charger is very expensive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 The charging voltage is a multiple of 4.2v. So they can choose lots of different end voltages. 84v 88.2v 92.4v 96.6v 100.8v and so on. I'm pretty sure a high voltage system is more lightweight. It's just that the need for more torque has slowed down the weight saving we should get. An 84v motor with similar torque and speed as a 168v motor would be heavier. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 On 1/21/2024 at 6:15 PM, YCC said: I am going to buy a third-party fast charger for EUC charging, which it has a range of voltage. I would like to know the next 5 years generation of charging voltage Dream on. By then, we're likely to see smarter, safer, more complex chargers that include communication with the EUC and don't energize their output until basic checks are performed. So even if you bought a dumb CC-CV power supply (like we use today) with the correct voltage range, it's unlikely to be compatible with dream machines made 5 years from now. Best you can do is plan for "the next year". 168V EUC's are not shipping to customers yet, so that's a good upper ceiling for planning. On 1/21/2024 at 6:15 PM, YCC said: saving money If you're value-minded, you won't be owning the newest-release EUC's anyhow, so the future-charger problem gets easier 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCC Posted January 24 Author Share Posted January 24 (edited) 2 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said: If you're value-minded, you won't be owning the newest-release EUC's anyhow, so the future-charger problem gets easier Good point of view, thanks for your warm comfort. However, I am afraid that the 201.6V charging voltage will appear next year, which the next level of 168V is 201.6V. It is very possible to see 201.6V charging voltage in next two year since the 134V charging voltage has been on the market for less than two years. Edited January 24 by YCC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 11 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said: Dream on. By then, we're likely to see smarter, safer, more complex chargers that include communication with the EUC dream on I bought a charge doctor about 5 years ago and I don't know any device which has succeeded its functionality. The charge enhancer is brand new and seems to do just the very same. I suspect that smart chargers will never be a priority focus of development and when communicating with the EUC, they will also tend to be proprietary and singular solutions. What's the current status with smart chargers for PEVs in general (which is a much much larger market than EUCs)? 9 hours ago, YCC said: It is very possible to see 201.6V charging voltage in next two year since the 134V charging voltage has been on the market for less than two years. Or maybe even the customers will start to realize that voltage does nothing to define performance and manufacturers will stop using the more voltage card to sell their new products. High end electric scooters have like a 50-70V systems. It's just very hard to predict. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 On 1/22/2024 at 4:11 AM, alcatraz said: An 84v motor with similar torque and speed as a 168v motor would be heavier. Yes, I can see this, higher voltages can get away with thinner wires (but they need thicker isolations). Do you have an estimate of how much of a realistic weight difference this would eventually make in absolute and relative terms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 (edited) 13 hours ago, YCC said: the next level of 168V is 201.6V No... They can increase in increments of 4.2V, and typically, it's even multiples of 4.2: 40S 168V 42S 176.4V 44S 184.8V 46S 193.2V 48S 201.6V I think it's quite unlikely to see a sudden jump from 40S all the way to 48S. 3 hours ago, Mono said: I bought a charge doctor about 5 years ago Me too! And it doesn't work with today's 126V+ EUC's Time marches on... 3 hours ago, Mono said: I suspect that smart chargers will never be a priority focus of development Counter examples below... I think once the customers learn that higher voltage doesn't offer them any additional value, EUC companies will find other topics to compete on. For example, if we had a charger that could regulate current dynamically according to cell temperature, 1-hour charging of smaller-battery EUC's could become typical, just like it is for other household commercial Li-Ion products. After one company debuts this and news spreads about how convenient it is, it'll be here to stay. (These are not simple CC-CV supplies) Edited January 24 by RagingGrandpa 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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