Charger enhancer for PEV

[Punxatawneyjoe]

10 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Bob Yan has a Master Degree in Mechanical Engineering.

Nice maybe he can make some suspension upgrades for a few wheels, there would probably be a good market for that. I am not downing his credentials by the way, i'm just not sold on the charger enhancer for wheels. And it seems odd to me that a founder of a company wouldn't have some stake in it even if it's 1%. That's why i was confused.

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Nice maybe he can make some suspension upgrades for a few wheels, there would probably be a good market for that. I am not downing his credentials by the way, i'm just not sold on the charger enhancer for wheels. And it seems odd to me that a founder of a company wouldn't have some stake in it even if it's 1%. That's why i was confused.

Bob Yan has a technical background, and was involved in the EUC/PEV industry from early on.

Additionally, he was COO, CEO (more than once) at Inmotion. So he has the technical as well as management background, and direct EUC/PEV experience for about a decade.

I think he has the credentials to do something great in the EUC space.

I'm excited that he started a new company involving EUC/PEV's.

Plus he is based in China.

The potential is there.

I am not dismissing his company PIDZOOM, nor his first product: the Charger Enhancer.

I will wait. I believe he can get it right.

He just started a company. It is not easy. I will patiently wait for future news.

 

When the founder of Leaper Kim forked off from Begode, it wasn't easy either. But from what I read, a group of people left Gotway to start Leaper Kim, not just one person.

 

Edited December 25, 2023 by techyiam

[RagingGrandpa]

On 12/24/2023 at 9:27 AM, Forwardnbak said:

this is an extra layer of protection? 

<Will it make overnight charging less hazardous?>

Not really.

The charging scenarios of concern involve cell heating, and single-cell overcharging (due to imbalance). 

Charger Enhancer has no idea if your pack is getting hot. And it has no idea if your pack is badly imbalanced.

Instead, we rely on the BMS to detect these problems and stop the charging process. Connecting an additional device between the charger and EUC doesn't change it.

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by RagingGrandpa

[techyiam]

6 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

we rely on the BMS to detect these problems and stop the charging process.

Then it makes more sense to look for a wheel equipped with a BMS with more advanced safety features in monitoring, safe guards, and self-correcting preventive measures, in addition to using better cells, and cell protection from moisture, heat and physical damage.

Interestingly enough, Inmotion put a lot effort in this regard in the V13.

[techyiam]

On 12/23/2023 at 4:06 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

Ok, so how does Charger Enhancer help? When should it turn off?

(I'm hoping someone who represents this new product might explain it to us.)

From Bob Yan on Facebook:

Quote

Bob Yan

Author

Top Contributor

Daniel Baxter yes, it'll be disconnected once your desired voltage is reached.

What would the actual battery voltage going to be after charging has ended, and the charger disconnected?

For example, if the preset voltage setting is set to 125V on the Charger Enhancer, what will be the battery voltage, since no time was spent charging at the preset voltage?

[Chriull]

32 minutes ago, techyiam said:

What would the actual battery voltage going to be after charging has ended, and the charger disconnected?

For example, if the preset voltage setting is set to 125V on the Charger Enhancer, what will be the battery voltage, since no time was spent charging at the preset voltage?

The saturation charge (constant voltage stage) charges about some additional 10% up to some 15% at 4.2V according to table 2 in https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-409-charging-lithium-ion . Depending on charge current, temperature and specific cell characteristics.

As it seems some 0.1V drop per cell should be expected. In the range from 4.1V to 4.2V there seem to be some nonlinearity. But roughly something in the range of a 3V drop should be expected for your example.

For the cells used for table 2 from batteryuniversity this 4.16V cut off charge would mean some ~84% SoC which by the "missing" saturation charge should settle to around 4.04V per cell.

Li Ion cells always settle to a voltage as if they had a full saturation charge with this voltage. 

[RValiasRV]

Hi !
 

Do you think you can use this device as a «step down» adaptater ? For exemple, if I have a 100V charger, can I set it at 84V to charge a 84V wheel with it ? I don’t think it would be justified in my use case otherwise.

[Forwardnbak]

I have asked Bob to come along and chat here to answer questions he said he would come chat soon. 

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

The saturation charge (constant voltage stage) charges about some additional 10% up to some 15% at 4.2V according to table 2 in https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-409-charging-lithium-ion . Depending on charge current, temperature and specific cell characteristics.

As it seems some 0.1V drop per cell should be expected. In the range from 4.1V to 4.2V there seem to be some nonlinearity. But roughly something in the range of a 3V drop should be expected for your example.

Thank you for sharing your valuable insight.

I wonder if the Charger Enhancer would allow the "constant voltage" stage (saturation stage) to occur if the voltage preset is set to the maximum battery voltage.

[RagingGrandpa]

16 hours ago, RValiasRV said:

Hi !
 

Do you think you can use this device as a «step down» adaptater ? For exemple, if I have a 100V charger, can I set it at 84V to charge a 84V wheel with it ? I don’t think it would be justified in my use case otherwise.

No!

If you tried, there would be no CV stage, so reaching 100% SOC will not be possible, and also no top-balancing. 

[Chriull]

On 12/29/2023 at 1:38 PM, techyiam said:

Thank you for sharing your valuable insight.

I wonder if the Charger Enhancer would allow the "constant voltage" stage (saturation stage) to occur if the voltage preset is set to the maximum battery voltage.

I'd guess it'll be quite some fiddling to find the right cut off voltage. And with some temperature change or cell aging it has to be readjusted again.

Just if one sets it higher (plus some "drift" reserve) one could use this as additional overvoltage protection. Don't know if this can be adjusted so that it makes sense?

[Mono]

On 12/23/2023 at 11:28 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

Anything else?

• disconnects the charger from the battery when the charge is completed for (slightly) safer charging, in particular when unsupervised
• allows charge cycles to end below 100% which has a pretty big impact on the battery charge wear (which may not be the most relevant wear there is, but still, and it also affects storage wear)

 

A graph generated from the Android AccuBattery app which claims to be data-driven (e.g. via batteryuniversity.com) which shows the impact of charging to less than 100% on wear:

Charging from 0% to 70%, 80%, 90%, 95% wears the battery in effect by (only) 10%, 21%, 24%, 62% of a full cycle. Removing the lower end from the charge does practically nothing.

I usually set the cutoff voltage to 4.0V which gives me about 75% SOC with no range anxiety (if I need more range I charge more, obviously).

Edited January 5 by Mono

[RagingGrandpa]

18 minutes ago, Mono said:

• disconnects the charger from the battery when the charge is completed for (slightly) safer charging, in particular when unsupervised
• allows charge cycles to end below 100% which has a pretty big impact on the battery charge wear (which may not be the most relevant wear there is, but still, and it also affects storage wear)

Ok, still these three then:

On 12/24/2023 at 9:08 AM, RagingGrandpa said:

I've heard 3 specific benefits: 

+ Displays electrical measurements during charging.

+ Automatically disconnects the charger when current falls below 300mA. (Prevents unnecessary float charging.)

+ Can be configured for partial charging, by automatically stopping at a user-specified voltage.

[Mono]

On 12/24/2023 at 3:08 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

Sounds like this feature then: 

So despite the unknown utility of charge-stop for rising current...

rather falling current?

On 12/24/2023 at 3:08 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

I've heard 3 specific benefits: 

+ Displays electrical measurements during charging.

+ Automatically disconnects the charger when current falls below 300mA. (Prevents unnecessary float charging.)

+ Can be configured for partial charging, by automatically stoping at a user-specified voltage.

Kinda missed this post. Regarding the second point: to my understanding this is a fully configurable current value. Then, the second and third points are in essence the same functionality: disconnecting the charger based on some specific criteria, namely a voltage upper threshold and a current lower threshold. To my understand, the current threshold can also be used for the partial charge application, in particular for larger batteries. As we see, disconnecting the charger may serve several purposes 

Edited January 5 by Mono

[RagingGrandpa]

9 minutes ago, Mono said:

this is a fully configurable current value

No. 
Charge-stop for falling current was stated to be a fixed 300mA:

On 11/27/2023 at 9:52 PM, Forwardnbak said:

Here is the features from the manual

3. Charging Protection Mechanism:

• (5) Discontinue charging output when reaching the full condition (charging current < 300ma).

 

9 minutes ago, Mono said:

the current threshold can also be used for the partial charge

No.
The adjustable current threshold will charge-stop for rising current. 
That part doesn't seem useful at all, regarding EUC charging.

Instead, it will do partial charging based on a voltage threshold for rising voltage. This works for us.
 

Edited January 5 by RagingGrandpa

[Mono]

2 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

No.
The adjustable current threshold will charge-stop for rising current. 

That's very hard to believe. In particular, as the current (usually) never increases during charging, and given how well thought-out the product appears to be otherwise 

What's the source of this information?

Edited January 5 by Mono

[Mono]

On 11/28/2023 at 3:52 AM, Forwardnbak said:

(5) Discontinue charging output when reaching the full condition (charging current < 300ma).

I don't understand how this makes sense when the current can not be set depending on the battery size, specifically, as a percentage of the 1C current.

Edited January 5 by Mono

[RagingGrandpa]

'Useful but not perfect' was my conclusion  

[techyiam]

Does the Charger Enchancer have a "constant voltage" stage, if it stops charging once the voltage preset is reached?

Let say we want to charge a Patton fully.

And we set the voltage preset to 126 V?

Once the voltage reaches 126 V, wouldn't the charger stops charging by shutting off the output. How does it know that 126V voltage preset is maximum battery voltage, and therefore, don't stop charging until the falling current is less than 300 mA?

Edited January 5 by techyiam

[RagingGrandpa]

7 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Let say we want to charge a Patton fully.

And we set the voltage preset to 126 V?

If you want to recharge fully, disable the voltage threshold by setting it higher than your charger's setpoint (e.g.: 127V). 

[techyiam]

55 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

If you want to recharge fully, disable the voltage threshold by setting it higher than your charger's setpoint (e.g.: 127V). 

But then you lose the "second layer" protection. You are back to relying on the charger and BMS to do the right thing.

So the Charger Enhancer is useful when under charging is desired?

EDIT:

On second thought using a preset voltage of 127 V is still reasonably safe, since:

127 V / 30 cells = 4.23 V. This would be the average voltage per cell.

It is getting close to the 4.25 V limit per cell limit. So ultimately, the BMS is still very much relied on for preventing over-charging.

Edited January 5 by techyiam

[Scubadragonsan]

Checkout this one from AlienRide: https://alienrides.com/products/hyper-charger

 

[RagingGrandpa]

50 minutes ago, Scubadragonsan said:

Checkout this one from AlienRide

That's just a power supply with an adjustable output voltage... I think it does not have charge-stop features.

[GPSchile]

On 12/24/2023 at 8:16 AM, Forwardnbak said:

All I want is to know that my charger definitely turns off overnight when I need to charge while sleeping.

that is also how I started 
Initially, I overlooked charger accessories as a PEV user, but my journey started with a timer and then an AC Wifi switch, just for convenience and be able to sleep at night (I have a family). Then, traveling with my EUCs and eBikes, I desired a simple, app-free solution to complement my chargers, accessing more information and control.
I got a Charger Enhancer (CE), and so far here are my key impressions :

• CE is more complete than a monitor or switch; It doesn't replace a Huawei PU nor BMS functions. Instead, it offers customizable tools easy to use by anybody. Its value varies based on user needs and therefore not able to be generalized. So, I share here from my own experience with it.
• Built by PIDZOOM, CE exudes quality in a compact, lightweight design, that is ideal for my travel style. My expensive PU is a device I do not travel with and I find myself using CE all the time.
• No apps or internet needed; four buttons for quick setup, retaining last settings.

As a background, I produce my own devices for work (field research), I am an EUC and eBike user and service provider for a small group of friends.
In my personal context, CE is serving multiple purposes:

• I check IN V/A data on CE before connecting to a vehicle, ensuring safe charging by identifying unstable locations. At my workshop I have received vehicles with damaged BMS due to failures on their chargers (after power surges). And I find myself renting cabins with not the best power supply. I never did it before, perhaps simply because not having this convenience. But now I find myself checking this every time with CE, taking just some seconds. I made 3D printed pieces to integrate CE to the charger but then used it just with the cable. It is very small and light anyway.

• In my workshop, CE adds a layer of protection to my adjustable power unit, preventing errors in voltage and current settings. Why? because I am human.
  Just as some experienced riders have forgotten to move the switch from 110V to 220V at the EV station, I may forget or adjust wrongly my PU. Not just the voltage but mainly the current limit. Because of the cases of damaged BMS associated with charger failure (after power surge) I see CE also like insurance. I may not needed, until it happens . 
  Where I am located, when the energy is reinstalled after an interruption, it tends to arrive for some minutes at a very off voltage. I have to use UPS for my PC and even for my aquarium (too many expensive equipment damaged). So, if it happens when sleeping and having my vehicles connected to the charger, I value any additional protection layer for the entire vehicle.

• I cannot spend on several PU. Import taxes in my country are no joke. Instead, CE's affordability makes it practical for balancing packs prior installation, assessing battery decay, testing purposes after accidents and I was able to recover an undercharged battery with ease using a common charger. I could have with the PU but it was very simple with CE, and at a lower cost.

• Voltage drop is an issue for me specially when charging at high currents during trips abroad in cold weather, resulting in lesser complete charge. Instead of using my PU, with CE I can use cheaper chargers or just the original dumb charger. Generally, when travelling and having all night, I set the cutoff voltage for full charge, and use a low current charger. When waking up I just press the forth button to complete the leftover capacity, without messing with connectors nor anything additional. It is convenient when traveling light.

• About partial charging, I have done it with V11 now for years, with periodical full charges for cell balancing (despite now there are models like V13 that can start balancing at 50% SoC). For me, it is easier now with CE, specially when travelling, but it is just one of the many ways I am finding CE can be used.

In conclusion, after using CE for some time, I can see how average riders may benefit from this accessory as a door to start understanding and controlling more their charge. CE has enhanced my charging routine, providing personalized benefits. It doesn't replace anything but acts as an additional layer of protection and customization. I think its value depends on personal needs and perhaps like in my case, they may evolve overtime. Kind of like it happened with my EUCs; I use them now, for way more that I previously could have expected.

BTW I noticed PIDZOOM is standing at their word in listening to the community. They updated their website with more descriptions etc and more products.

Edited January 15 by GPSchile
clarity

[GPSchile]

Perhaps this very forum can be used by CE users, to post their measured Wh (when charging from 0-100%) vs total mileage, model and some context.
We may build a catalog of vehicles and their battery decay based on empiric use.