Kingsong 14D cutout?

[JacobFerguson]

Hey everybody, I finally convinced my brother to buy a used Kingsong 14D from this forum (same wheel I have) and in his first couple weeks riding it the thing already cut out on him. He said he was on the road going near top speed up a hill when it randomly stopped self balancing. He's got some road rash and his hands are messed up, but thankfully he didn't hit his head.

Are cutouts common on the KS14D? I've had mine for years (4000 miles) and never had a cut out. The one my brother bought has only 200 miles on it, and the seller said he bought it this year so I guess it's practically brand new. The only difference I noticed on it from mine was the pedals were a different color, and it also came with an external fuse in it (opposite the charging port where the USB input is) unlike mine. I either never had one, or it fell out at some point. My brother said the fuse is no longer in there, so maybe it fell out while riding.

My first reaction is to suspect the fuse. I know there's controversy surrounding whether to fuse, or not to fuse, depending on your risk appetite for cutouts vs fires. I think I belong to the camp that would rather risk a fire than a cutout. Things can be replaced, but not people. Anyway, does anyone know the KS14D's cutout history? Is it pretty rare? I thought I read Kingsong might be the best company out there in this area.

Also, most importantly, does anyone know if the external fuse port I was talking about in the KS14D is just a fuse holder? The seller seemed to think it was just a holder. He told me he would ride without the fuse but just put it in there when he shipped it to us. He said it kept falling out and he wasn't sure how to make it stay in there. I'm hoping it's just the fuse...

Thanks...

[alcatraz]

56 minutes ago, JacobFerguson said:

He said he was on the road going near top speed up a hill

This is one warning sign. 

Also, has he ridden more powerful wheels? I've always theorized that downsizing is risky because we get used to the power.

What was the battery level at the time?

Big brand wheels have relatively good safety mechanisms but an aging battery isn't one of them.

[alcatraz]

I know you're thinking 200km but I'm referring to the model.

If the board was changed it would show a low mileage.

Does the wheel power on now? Can you check the fuses? What's the battery configuration? Is it one or two packs?

(I'm not familiar with the wheel.)

[JacobFerguson]

The battery level he said was like 57% or something. I told him to turn it back on like an hour later and tell me voltage, which was 59v. He's never ridden another wheel, this is his first. He said today was the first day he got kind of comfortable on it, cause he's only practiced for a few days or so. The batteries shouldn't be aged because the wheel is allegedly brand new, manufactured this year. The low 200 mileage confirms that in my opinion (not sure how to verify year with the serial number or anything like that). Plus the wheel is still in pretty good and shiney shape, except for a few scuffs from the seller. Compared to mine, I would say it is new looking from the pictures I've seen.

My brother said the wheel powered on after the cutout and he rode it back. He later struggled to get the DarknessBot app loading, but that is probably unrelated. The KS14D has internal fuses built-in I believe, except for that external one I'm still trying to figure out... (whether it was just a spare in a holder, or actually served a purpose and was connected to the circuit somehow). It's gone now, and I don't understand how the wheel would work without it if it was connecting the circuit.

How many packs is a good question. The KS14D is supposed to come with two packs, but I plan to open his up just to make sure. For now I assume the two packs are in there. Have you ever had a cutout alcatraz?

[dycus]

Near top speed up a hill at 57% battery is definitely user error... your brother needs to learn and understand the limitations of self-balancing vehicles. As the battery charge goes down, so does top speed. Going uphill saps even more power. I wouldn't be going anywhere near top speed on any EUC at half battery. Plus, "top speed" depends on your weight and other external factors.

[JacobFerguson]

He said he was on a road going kind of up hill. I don't think he meant it was steep, just on an incline. Know what I mean?

Plus I do that all the time on mine, no matter the battery life I take it up to its max (first level beeping) and then ride steady. Up hill, down hill... never had a cut out.

[UPONIT]

25 minutes ago, JacobFerguson said:

... never had a cut out.

Matter of time... why risk it?

Both of you should learn from his experience. If you are constantly pushing your EUC to its max, maybe you should get a more powerful wheel so there's a safety margin. If not, don't be surprised or angry if you constantly ride near the maximum output of your wheel and it cuts out on you one day. A stray pothole is all it takes. Just because it hasn't happened to you yet doesn't mean it won't.

Hopefully it never happens. If it does, hopefully you don't injure yourself.

Good luck.

[JacobFerguson]

We're definitely trying to learn from it, for sure. I would never want to experience a cutout, and he says he never wants to again either haha. You know the other thing is that he weighs a lot more than me at about 215. I've been about 180 most of the years I've ridden this wheel. Maybe that was a contributing factor.

My first guess is still that fuse though. If any other KS14D people know about the external fuse and can chime in, that would be really helpful. I can't find any literature about it online.

Thanks...

[Paradox]

31 minutes ago, JacobFerguson said:

My first guess is still that fuse though. If any other KS14D people know about the external fuse and can chime in, that would be really helpful. I can't find any literature about it online.

If you don't believe the comments here you can always let your brother ride your wheel under the same circumstances and see how well that goes.   The comments here are based in experience. 

[dycus]

I don't understand how you could possibly suspect the fuse if your brother turned the wheel back on and rode it back home afterwards? The fuse is clearly still fine if he was able to do that.

[JacobFerguson]

31 minutes ago, dycus said:

I don't understand how you could possibly suspect the fuse if your brother turned the wheel back on and rode it back home afterwards? The fuse is clearly still fine if he was able to do that.

The fuse must have fallen out at some point because the seller shipped it with it in there, and then after the crash I told my brother to check for it and he said there was no fuse. You're right it doesn't really make sense, as I said above, that the external fuse could be connecting the circuit and then the wheel still work after it's gone. But when you look inside the fuse "holder" there are two metal connector terminals at the base. That to me rules out it just being a holder. If it's functional though, that doesn't really make sense either because I've always ridden mine without a fuse.

So I guess I'm really just trying to see if any KS14D people on here can chime in about that external fuse and tell me what it is for. Maybe it's connected to some type of secondary circuit and if it falls out while riding the wheel will cut out, but the wheel works fine if you turn it on with the fuse not already in there.

[dycus]

I promise you - if the wheel worked after the fuse was gone, and yours has always worked without that fuse, then it's not connected to anything.

Nobody would design a circuit that uses a fuse as some sort of "cutout now" switch but otherwise has no function and everything works without it. I guarantee you. What better way to hold a spare fuse, so it won't rattle, than in a disconnected fuse holder? It's cheap and already available.

Your brother has only been riding a couple weeks. He's on the heavier side for such a small EUC. He was going uphill near max speed with about half battery. He overpowered the wheel, it's as simple as that. He needs to learn to slow down under those kinds of conditions.

[JacobFerguson]

1 hour ago, dycus said:

I promise you - if the wheel worked after the fuse was gone, and yours has always worked without that fuse, then it's not connected to anything.

Well if that's the case then I guess it's my fault for not teaching him to take it easy. I think he was under the impression that the tilt back will just do its thing and that he didn't have to worry about it. I've been under a similar impression that the technology has advanced on these things (since the early days when cutouts were a bit more common) to the degree now where it's such a rare phenomenon to have a cutout, and that even user error can't often trigger it.

But I just exacted a promise from dycus, you all saw it  I guess that will be good enough for now (unless there's any KS14D people here), I digress...

Definitely curious to know though if the people commenting here have experienced a cutout...

[Paradox]

24 minutes ago, JacobFerguson said:

Definitely curious to know though if the people commenting here have experienced a cutout...

I overleaned my Ninebot One E+ two weeks after learning how to ride.  I knew nothing about cutouts or overleans. Fortunately for me I was only going 10mph up a slight incline at 50% battery.  Wheels with small batteries are the worst but overleans can happen with all wheels if you try hard enough.  I found out real fast after the incident.   I thought the wheel was defective.  It took me several months to feel confident on that wheel again.  I did buy a bigger stronger wheel immediately after this happened.  Riding within safety margins is the best way to avoid an overlean.  I thought the advertised range and speed held the entire time riding it.  5% battery was still able to do full speed.  You learn very fast that this  isn't the case.   I had no idea riding weight, conditions or battery charge had any impact on speed or range.  Research it for a minute.  You will find your answers.

[mrelwood]

56 minutes ago, Paradox said:

overleans can happen with all wheels if you try hard enough. 

This. The threshold has of course been raised by a huge amount since the 14D was introduced, but it’s still there. It’ll always be there on self-balancing vehicles. If you accelerate hard enough, there’s no more power to activate the tilt-back, nor to keep the rider upright.

 My brother borrowed my first wheel (Lhotz) after I had gotten my second (16S). He was learning pretty well, but hadn’t thought about the power limits of the wheel, and so he overleaned the wheel on a parking lot without wearing any protection. His knee was busted for a long time, and he never tried riding again. We had to talk a lot about the power limits afterwards until he understood what the limits mean and why the overlean happened. Despite having graduated from the university of technology, and having a great understanding of physics in general.

 Point being, the power limits of a wheel aren’t obvious at all for new  riders. So once they get overly confident in the beginning, a crash  can easily happen be it from overlean or other mistakes. There are a lot of people on this forum who have experienced the exact same thing.

 Hope your brother heals up well.

 

[skunkmonkey]

21 hours ago, JacobFerguson said:

You know the other thing is that he weighs a lot more than me at about 215. I've been about 180 most of the years I've ridden this wheel

Yeah that definitely would play a major factor. I'm a new EUC rider myself, so I won't pretend to have extensive knowledge about that, but I do have years of experience with electric scooters, and I can tell you first hand that weight makes an enormous difference. There are 4 main things that affect your battery life, and top speed:
1. Weight

2. Inclines

3. Battery %

4. Temperature

When you start to combine these factors the effect is magnified. My wife's 40mph scooter's max speed on a steep city hill drops down to something like 20mph. Even a gradual hill will decrease the max speed a couple of miles per hour, especially if you combine some of those other factors.

[JacobFerguson]

Alright cool, thanks a lot everybody. My brother and I are getting ready to take our wheels to the beach on vacation and ride around the boardwalk! I think I'll hop on his and see what I can figure out. For now, I'm just assuming it was user error like you guys said (my error for not telling my bro). I'll try to keep you updated if anything new...

Thanks again...

[eezo]

4 hours ago, JacobFerguson said:

Alright cool, thanks a lot everybody. My brother and I are getting ready to take our wheels to the beach on vacation and ride around the boardwalk! I think I'll hop on his and see what I can figure out. For now, I'm just assuming it was user error like you guys said (my error for not telling my bro). I'll try to keep you updated if anything new...

Thanks again...

I mean.. I would tell your brother it's user error, as much as it sucks to have something happen because of user error. It's better that he learns that he's in control. While accidents and mechanical failure can happen, if he knows it was his riding that caused it then he'll know what to change. 

[tenofnine]

If I ever bought a wheel used I would assume all of it's original stats are halved at that battery percent and at full I would still be cautious and never touch the top speed or range. Even someone trustworthy selling it, you have no idea what it's history actually is...

 

EUCs are great but even the modern ones have a realistic prime shelf life of 5 years after the batteries are manufactured. And about 10 years total if the wheel is never dropped, of course with declining range and top speed/torque as the years go on and it's cleaned and maintained.

[atdlzpae]

A whole set of cheapest "wrist guards + knee pads + elbow pads" should cost like $30. Cheapest helmet should cost about the same.
Be thankful to the luck gods that there was no long-term damage and buy them today.

Edited September 21, 2023 by atdlzpae

[Funky]

As rest have said USER - ERROR... Nothing more and nothing less.

Learn wheels limits and know that those limits goes down as battery gets more empty.. AND EVEN MORE - if you are riding against strong wind or uphill.

 

Like hello???  This isn't like a electric bike or scooter.. When you go over the said limits - you faceplant. Record you typical daily rides and check stats and how much you have safety margin left. And then you will know how "safe" you are while riding.

I did that for my first months while riding.. I never went under 20% of safety margin, when i was going 40-45km/h speeds.. (My typical daily commute is around 30km/h speeds. Meaning i have plenty of safety margin left.) No matter what level my battery is. (I normally charge at 50%.)

BUT that only works for me, because how i ride and how fast.. 

Going anywhere near top speed of wheel is asking for trouble! Even if you have 100% charge... And even worse as battery gets lower!

Edited September 21, 2023 by Funky

[Scubadragonsan]

On 9/15/2023 at 4:45 PM, JacobFerguson said:

Anyway, does anyone know the KS14D's cutout history? Is it pretty rare? I thought I read Kingsong might be the best company out there in this area.

I have used several KingSongs--KS16X, KS16S, KS18S, KS18XL--over the years. Never had any cut out issues! I used the 16" for short distance riding and doing tricks. The 18" are used for longer distance riding. Love them, very reliable!

[Timwheel]

I must agree with everyone here, a KS 14D should be used with very very light acceleration and barely any tilt, even more if you weight anything above 70kgs. I'm 90kgs, I have multiple wheels with very high torque (the master is my daily), and I can still overtoque them (I can hear the magnets skipping in my master hunder very hard braking).
I'm always extremely careful when riding my KS14D. It is the 340wh version and it has no fuse either. It is my wheel for very short trip (2-3km) and to go buy another big wheel (I have the special backpack that lets me slide it into and ride on the new wheel once at destination with my KS14D on the back). The KS14 has surprinsgly quite a bit of torque at anything under 10 km/h, it is not very easy to overtorque it going slow even with pretty extreme slope if you go walking pace. However, at anything over 15/20 km/h, a very faint ankle flip makes the pedals dip. If you're going 25+ km/h, even at full battery, and do a slight ankle flip, you will hear "Please deccelerate". I sometimes do it on purpose but I've been doing it for hundreds of time knowing it will be soft and bringing the pedals back.

Your brother had a pretty low battery level for this wheel, going to speed in uphill conditions is asking for trouble.

The KS14D is a fantastic light, ultra nimble, very well built wheel. It is a keeper in my opinion, but it should be used well within its performance enveloppe to stay safe.

Edited March 17 by Timwheel

[Litheenty]

On 9/16/2023 at 2:45 AM, JacobFerguson said:

Hey everybody, I finally convinced my brother to buy a used Kingsong 14D from this forum (same wheel I have) and in his first couple weeks riding it the thing already cut out on him. He said he was on the road going near top speed up a hill when it randomly stopped self balancing. He's got some road rash and his hands are messed up, but thankfully he didn't hit his head.

Are cutouts common on the KS14D? I've had mine for years (4000 miles) and never had a cut out. The one my brother bought has only 200 miles on it, and the seller said he bought it this year so I guess it's practically brand new. The only difference I noticed on it from mine was the pedals were a different color, and it also came with an external fuse in it (opposite the charging port where the USB input is) unlike mine. I either never had one, or it fell out at some point. My brother said the fuse is no longer in there, so maybe it fell out while riding.

My first reaction is to suspect the fuse. I know there's controversy surrounding whether to fuse, or not to fuse, depending on your risk appetite for cutouts vs fires. I think I belong to the camp that would rather risk a fire than a cutout. Things can be replaced, but not people. Anyway, does anyone know the KS14D's cutout history? Is it pretty rare? I thought I read Kingsong might be the best company out there in this area.

Also, most importantly, does anyone know if the external fuse port I was talking about in the KS14D is just a fuse holder? The seller seemed to think it was just a holder. He told me he would ride without the fuse but just put it in there when he shipped it to us. He said it kept falling out and he wasn't sure how to make it stay in there. I'm hoping it's just the fuse...

By the way, if you need any help with your assignments, you can check out this website. They offer great resources for students!

Thanks...

 I've been riding my KS14D for a while too and never experienced a cutout. It's concerning to hear about your brother's incident, especially with such low mileage. The fuse situation is interesting though, I've never noticed one on mine. Definitely worth looking into whether it's just a holder or not. Safety first!

[Panen]

Your brother is 97+ kg, near max speed, on an incline on a small underpowered KS14D with 57% battery.
Poor wheel had no choice but to stop this madness.

In seriousness im sorry for you and your brother.
Hopefully this is a really good learning experience on the power management of EUC's.