Inmotion V14 Adventure: a new trail wheel from Inmotion

[Jason McNeil]

Excellent review! A few weeks back, asked the team to demonstrate that the V14 was capable of charging at 14-16A with the GBs. They hit the BMS thermal protection half-way in. Although the GB & 50S hit the same temps given the same input/outputs, the important distinction is that the 50S is rated for a higher range of temperature operation—in all the Samsung technical data, they have charging @ 6A/cell in all scenarios. 

For the 50S, the BMS temp thresholds will certainly need to be adjusted for those higher current levels.

Another project on the radar is to create a V14 battery pack charging station, to charge the packs independently from the Wheel.  

  

[Wrd]

5 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

V14 battery pack charging station

That’s a fun idea. Gets us closer to the swappable & battery rental ideas; even if it is 10 minutes to change a battery.

Thanks for keeping focused on the batteries Jason!

 

 

[dimos15]

11 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Excellent review! A few weeks back, asked the team to demonstrate that the V14 was capable of charging at 14-16A with the GBs. They hit the BMS thermal protection half-way in. Although the GB & 50S hit the same temps given the same input/outputs, the important distinction is that the 50S is rated for a higher range of temperature operation—in all the Samsung technical data, they have charging @ 6A/cell in all scenarios. 

For the 50S, the BMS temp thresholds will certainly need to be adjusted for those higher current levels.

Another project on the radar is to create a V14 battery pack charging station, to charge the packs independently from the Wheel.  

  

These batteries have low cycle life https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/cycle-life-tests-of-high-power-density-cylindrical-cells.114473/

Why not use proper high charge/discharge cells like molicels?

[CrabChampion]

7 minutes ago, dimos15 said:

Why not use proper high charge/discharge cells like molicels?

because 50S batteries are much cheaper. That is why many chinese PEV manufacturers have been all converting over to 50S cells instead of molicel which perform better and have a longer cycle life

Edited October 19, 2023 by Cobaltsaber

[dimos15]

Just now, Cobaltsaber said:

because 50S batteries are much cheaper. That is why many chinese PEV manufacturers have been all converting over to 50S cells over molicel which perform better and have a longer cycle life

Most Chinese electric skateboards come with molicels. I don't think they are that expensive nowadays.

50s might work too if you stop charging at 4.1V to extend their life but still..  molicels are better

[daniel1234]

On 10/12/2023 at 2:53 AM, stizl said:

Source:

https://www . taschenlampen-forum . de/threads/21700-comparison-constant-current-power-and-flashlights . 79436/

 

This is result of first batch from 2020 - Beaware meanwhile samsung changed cell Specification 

[Eucner]

2 hours ago, dimos15 said:

These batteries have low cycle life https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/cycle-life-tests-of-high-power-density-cylindrical-cells.114473/

Why not use proper high charge/discharge cells like molicels?

Samsung 50S is actually good if you compare life cycles with actual current and not with relative current (C value) or unrealistic high test currents.

[Critzlez]

4 hours ago, dimos15 said:

These batteries have low cycle life https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/cycle-life-tests-of-high-power-density-cylindrical-cells.114473/

Why not use proper high charge/discharge cells like molicels?

It's low cycle life because it's calculated based on a huge discharge and charge current. View this post in this thread by Jason:

At 10A discharge and 6A charge, it's rated at 600 cycles at 80% capacity. 10A and 6A are huge for what EUCs realistically encounter. eg you'll likely see 2.45A at most for charging instead of 6A. In this case, you'll see at least 1000 cycles. Jason has also said that as well

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Critzlez

[dimos15]

4 hours ago, daniel1234 said:

This is result of first batch from 2020 - Beaware meanwhile samsung changed cell Specification 

Do you have the new cell specification? Most likely the changes are minor.

4 hours ago, Eucner said:

Samsung 50S is actually good if you compare life cycles with actual current and not with relative current (C value) or unrealistic high test currents.

The endless sphare test is the only cycle life test i have found...

Also at the same current the 50s runs hotter than the p42 . So the molicel most likely has better cycle life

1 hour ago, Critzlez said:

It's low cycle life because it's calculated based on a huge discharge and charge current. View this post in this thread by Jason:

At 10A discharge and 6A charge, it's rated at 600 cycles at 80% capacity. 10A and 6A are huge for what EUCs realistically encounter. eg you'll likely see 2.45A at most for charging instead of 6A. In this case, you'll see at least 1000 cycles.

Something is wrong here. I am talking about the 80W discharge test.

First the temperature cut off is 83 not 130. And in the original spec sheet the battery made 250 cycles at 25A  https://www.dnkpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/SAMSUNG-INR21700-50S-Cell-Specification.pdf

Edited October 19, 2023 by dimos15

[Critzlez]

15 minutes ago, dimos15 said:

And in the original spec sheet for the same test the battery made 250 cycles not 500 https://www.dnkpower.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/SAMSUNG-INR21700-50S-Cell-Specification.pdf

Yes, that's because the discharge to get that rating is 25A, which is extremely high for euc real world conditions. The 600 cycle rating is 10A discharge. They'll be more cycles if it's discharged and charged at less current, which it definitely will. Plus the rating is based on 2.5V. Many wheels only go down to like 3.0V, so even more cycles is achievable. 1000 cycles will be easily achieved with these cells, especially with active balancing so you can charge up to 80% reliably

Edited October 19, 2023 by Critzlez

[dimos15]

On 10/19/2023 at 1:32 PM, Critzlez said:

Yes, that's because the discharge to get that rating is 25A, which is extremely high for euc real world conditions. The 600 cycle rating is 10A discharge. They'll be more cycles if it's discharged and charged at less current, which it definitely will. Plus the rating is based on 2.5V. Many wheels only go down to like 3.0V, so even more cycles is achievable. 1000 cycles will be easily achieved with these cells, especially with active balancing so you can charge up to 80% reliably

I was talking about the 25A 250cycle test (in the spec sheet) vs the 22A 500 cycle test . Anyway in my opinion you need high discharge cells for eucs because they don't get hot , they have less voltage sag, better cycle life and you can charge them faster/brake harder.

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by dimos15

[Eucner]

1 hour ago, dimos15 said:

The endless sphare test is the only cycle life test i have found...

Also at the same current the 50s runs hotter than the p42 . So the molicel most likely has better cycle life

You need to keep in mind what is actually needed. Adventurer's motor is rated for 4000 W and the effective voltage is 118 V. In 4 parallel cell configuration this 8.4 A/cell. Very few of us will ride at this limit. Most of the riding will be much more relaxed. The 50S will give enough life cycles and 19% more capacity than P42. It is also having enough headroom for peak discharge (acceleration) and charge (regenerative braking).

[dimos15]

8 minutes ago, Eucner said:

You need to keep in mind what is actually needed. Adventurer's motor is rated for 4000 W and the effective voltage is 118 V. In 4 parallel cell configuration this 8.4 A/cell. Very few of us will ride at this limit. Most of the riding will be much more relaxed. The 50S will give enough life cycles and 19% more capacity than P42. It is also having enough headroom for peak discharge (acceleration) and charge (regenerative braking).

But you can reach the limit by hitting a potthole. Or you can get a cut out from voltage sag

[Eucner]

7 minutes ago, dimos15 said:

But you can reach the limit by hitting a potthole.

You won't be riding all the time in a pothole. The peak current need is only for few milliseconds. The capacitors will provide some extra current. Longer peak will be limited not only by battery, but also by control electronics.

7 minutes ago, dimos15 said:

Or you can get a cut out from voltage sag

I don't think voltage sag is bad for 50S.

[dimos15]

10 hours ago, Eucner said:

You won't be riding all the time in a pothole. The peak current need is only for few milliseconds. The capacitors will provide some extra current. Longer peak will be limited not only by battery, but also by control electronics.

I don't think voltage sag is bad for 50S.

It doesn't work that way. The capacitors need battery power to send the phase current pulses.

These batteries will have voltage sag because they run hot.

Also the samsung 50s is made in China so i guess they will buy them pretty cheap. Why the price of the v14 will go up?

At least give us an option for samsung 40t or molicel p42 like gotway does

Edited October 19, 2023 by dimos15

[OldFartRides]

What’s a gotway ?

[CrabChampion]

I was rewatching a review of the v13 and realized, the v14 doesnt have the safety features of the v13 huh? Nothing was mentioned about dual hall sensors or the anti-flammable material inside the battery packs

[Paul g]

  @Cobaltsaber,  the fire resistant foam inside the battery packs do not make the battery fire proof, that’s a misunderstanding. That foam it is mean to improve thermic conductivity and provide some water protection in cars, for example. But cars can afford to be heavier. In wheels it is very detrimental to weight, and weight is extremely important to be kept low. I would not buy a V13 type of wheel. I really don’t understand why @Inmotion Global keeps doing the V13 with foam in the battery packs when they received such a bad feedback from the market, or why at least doesn’t offer a variant without foam. This is a case of over engineering gone wrong. The V13 would’ve had a lot higher performance and a lot more sells.

[Paul g]

   Why fire retardant is added to that foam? Because that foam is extremely flammable  and would burn instantly throughout its mass in the case of a cell that burst. The fire would spread through the entire battery pack in a blink of an eye and at how big a car battery is it wouldn’t be a good idea. By adding copious amounts of fire retardant it becomes fire resistant, that is: it stops the fire from transmitting through its mass too fast. In the case of an accident when the battery has been damaged it would give the people trapped inside the car enough time to exit and run to a safe distance. 

[Paul g]

6 hours ago, dimos15 said:

It doesn't work that way. The capacitors need battery power to send the phase current pulses.

These batteries will have voltage sag because they run hot.

Also the samsung 50s is made in China so i guess they will buy them pretty cheap. Why the price of the v14 will go up?

At least give us an option for samsung 40t or molicel p42 like gotway does

   Gotway would be crap if eWheels wouldn’t modd them with their own safer batteries. That is why outside the US Gotway do not sell that much.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Paul g

[dimos15]

2 hours ago, Paul g said:

   Gotway would be crap if eWheels wouldn’t modd them with their own safer batteries. That is why outside the US Gotway do not sell that much.

I agree e-wheels is moving the industry in the right direction but it is kind of ironic that you can buy a gotway wheel with molicels and not an inmotion 

3 hours ago, Paul g said:

the fire resistant foam inside the battery packs do not make the battery fire proof,

Potting the batteries is the best thing you can do regarding safety. Check this podcast

Can @Inmotion Global confirm that the v14 has a potted battery pack?

Edited October 20, 2023 by dimos15

[UPONIT]

1 hour ago, dimos15 said:

I agree e-wheels is moving the industry in the right direction but it is kind of ironic that you can buy a gotway wheel with molicels and not an inmotion 

Potting the batteries is the best thing you can do regarding safety. Check this podcast

Can @Inmotion Global confirm that the v14 has a potted battery pack?

can you time-stamp the video at the point where potting batteries is discussed? an hour is a long time to sit through... thanks !!

[Eucner]

38 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

can you time-stamp the video at the point where potting batteries is discussed?

At 13:00, but you should start listening little earlier.

 

[Jason McNeil]

I asked Xiao Rong, the guy who makes the Wheel accessories, like the seats/pads, if he could come up with a 'charging station' concept for the V14 packs. For simplicity, the station would have two charge input ports & some basic logic for ensuring the packs are charged together in pairs, with individual voltage readout displays.

For suppliers to recoup the development investment & effort, the main consideration is volume. If there's a prospect of 100-200 of these over the course of 6-12 months, it should be viable. As a price guesstimate, I would say it would be in the $250-$300 (shipped) region. 

Also... this morning received confirmation that the 50S BMS temp thresholds will be 78°C discharge & 58°C charge, for a ~2°C +/- sensor probe variance factor.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Jason McNeil

[Paul g]

4 hours ago, Eucner said:

At 13:00, but you should start listening little earlier.

 

   This problem of gas dilation it is solvable by having a dilation bladder inside the battery pack (plus a water absorbent like silica gel bag inside the pack itself). They had that in the WW2 in the Mustangs so that air doesn’t mix with gasoline vapours in the tanks 😂

Edited October 20, 2023 by Paul g