What causes wobbles? (Split from: “Inmotion V13 Speculation”)

[novazeus]

fyi. more experienced but still gets wobbles.

if this ever happened to me, i would have quit riding. and now i'm riding a v13 that is prone to oscillations. but i still don't get wobbles. 

not debating @mrelwoodbut maybe with marty's video u can tell us all what caused this crash.

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by novazeus

[Stevebee]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

fyi. more experienced but still gets wobbles.

if this ever happened to me, i would have quit riding. and now i'm riding a v13 that is prone to oscillations. but i still don't get wobbles. 

not debating @mrelwoodbut maybe with marty's video u can tell us all what caused this crash.

 

A wobble caused it - says it in the title

[Stevebee]

Wrt experience. 1,000 different experiences or the same experience 1,000 times. Know which I’d prefer

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

maybe with marty's video u can tell us all what caused this crash.

I remember that one. There are always several reasons for when a wobble turns bad enough to cause a crash.

1) It did look like he might’ve tensed up when the wheel started to tramline. Tense legs causes wobbles and makes them worse.

2) Slow braking on a shallow downhill is where I got my first wobbles as well. I’m not completely sure why that is, but it has been suggested that it may be related to the geometry of the rider being behind the wheel’s axle, but not controlling the wheel strongly enough like one does while braking normally.

3) Marty didn’t seemingly do anything to kill the wobble. I don’t think he has ever learned the methods to do so. Carving, leaning to one side of the shell, or otherwise creating an unsymmetrical state is a good way to kill a slow wobble like that.

4) Marty usually has over ten EUCs. He simply doesn’t have the time on any specific wheel to get well familiarized with the wheel’s wobbles and other behavior. I don’t know how much he had ridden with that specific wheel at that time though.

5) Marty often rides extremely long days of challenging off-road trails. I don’t know what part of a day that happened at, but it is possible that his legs were readily tense and shaky from exhaustion. Tired legs is a well known cause for wobbles.

 

 Teaching oneself how to get out of wobbles is simply a good idea. As has been clearly shown, even experienced or aging riders can get them one day out of the blue.

[novazeus]

41 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Slow braking on a shallow downhill is where I got my first wobbles as well. I’m not completely sure why that is, but it has been suggested that it may be related to the geometry of the rider being behind the wheel’s axle, but not controlling the wheel strongly enough like one does while braking normally.

the question is, what physics causes wobbles? not how to correct wobbles or why a rider gets wobbles, etc. i don't get wobbles, if i did i would not ride wheels. 

for example, here's an explanation about the physics of a tank slap on motorcycles:

"A tank slapper motorcycle accident can happen when the front tire goes out of alignment with the rear tire. Once the front tire is out of alignment, it will try to get back into alignment with the rear tire and start the wobble. Tank slappers can happen to both experienced and beginner riders."

i've offered my explanation on what causes wobbles on wheels. 

i don't have any riding experience on hilly terrain on pavement. pasture yes. 

if u haven't ridden a "challenger" v13 yet, i'll be interested to hear ur comments on it's tendency to oscillate. i can feel it's oscillation but because of the chinbar on my helmet, i can't really see it. i ignore it anyway because i know the wheel will correct itself if i don't interfere with it.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

the question is, what physics causes wobbles?

Scroll up a bit. I explained it in detail already.

[conecones]

On 4/3/2023 at 8:28 PM, novazeus said:

u wouldn't make it 50 yards in my pastures. 

and my riding is stress free, because i never get wobbles, ever! once in 6 years is an anomaly. 

u can practice wobbling all u want, i'll practice safe braking and accelerating.

haha, should i also practice crashing because i never crash?

u do u, i'll do me.

I tried to keep my comments "big picture" to show you the problems with approaching wobbles (a common issue) from the viewpoint of "I should never get wobbles". I can see now that logic doesn't appeal to you nor are you interested in getting into the details with @mrelwood. It's disappointing to see you've now diverted this conversation into a You Vs Me.

If you're trying to lump me into the same category as a new rider (relying on pads and studded pedals to ride) that you often like to make fun of, maybe a quick bio helps you see where I'm coming from:
- I commute 30kms to work daily since end of 2019. I ride on the road at car speeds and lane split in heavy city congestion. I've never fallen on the street or hit any person or car.
- I am the main off-road trail guide/ride organizer for my local group (Toronto). I lead both the advanced group (black diamond MTB trails) as well as the beginner group and I teach beginners how to get into off-road riding.
- I won first place in our local off-road/BMX track race last year hosted by RideOne. I won it on a RS HT, competing against skilled riders on suspension wheels - S22's & Master's.
- I've met a couple people new to off-road riding with the same attitude as you. Stubborn, eager, and thinks they know better than the other riders. They are typically new riders who've just started but read a lot of info online and refuse advice from other riders, don't use a tether, etc. I've had the pleasure of witnessing these guys get absolutely destroyed once the group gets going, and at the end of the day, sit there quietly eating their humble pie. The few that come back though, became great riders.

So I may not have a high forum rank, but I'm pretty confident I can lap you on your dirt road/pasture or wherever you practice at. In fact I'm certain a couple riders in our group can lap you going backwards.

Going back to the point - I'm not trying to change your mind, but rather show the issues of your perspective so other people struggling with wobbles don't get mislead by your often-wrong advice to other members. 

Which brings me to my next point - for someone who's ridden so many wheels for so long and a "Grand Master" on these forums, it is surprising that you don't actually know very much about riding and in my opinion should not be giving bad advice to other riders. Telling @Forwardnbakthat he fell off his V13 because of the stock tire is just straight up WRONG. The V13 is a heavy wheel and rides high as a top heavy wheel. Riders need to get more time on it before going too fast, and dealing with wind and road conditions is an on-going issue regardless of wheel. Changing the tire is NOT going to prevent falls if you haven't given yourself enough time to adjust to the wheel.

Your V13 setup is also stuck in 2019. No pads and no studded pedals works for you, but trying to make it look like it's better for other riders is straight up horrible advice. A wheel this heavy needs leverage to help stop. You'll die in traffic if you try to ride this setup going on the commute I do daily.

[novazeus]

2 hours ago, conecones said:

I tried to keep my comments "big picture" to show you the problems with approaching wobbles (a common issue) from the viewpoint of "I should never get wobbles". I can see now that logic doesn't appeal to you nor are you interested in getting into the details with @mrelwood. It's disappointing to see you've now diverted this conversation into a You Vs Me.

If you're trying to lump me into the same category as a new rider (relying on pads and studded pedals to ride) that you often like to make fun of, maybe a quick bio helps you see where I'm coming from:
- I commute 30kms to work daily since end of 2019. I ride on the road at car speeds and lane split in heavy city congestion. I've never fallen on the street or hit any person or car.
- I am the main off-road trail guide/ride organizer for my local group (Toronto). I lead both the advanced group (black diamond MTB trails) as well as the beginner group and I teach beginners how to get into off-road riding.
- I won first place in our local off-road/BMX track race last year hosted by RideOne. I won it on a RS HT, competing against skilled riders on suspension wheels - S22's & Master's.
- I've met a couple people new to off-road riding with the same attitude as you. Stubborn, eager, and thinks they know better than the other riders. They are typically new riders who've just started but read a lot of info online and refuse advice from other riders, don't use a tether, etc. I've had the pleasure of witnessing these guys get absolutely destroyed once the group gets going, and at the end of the day, sit there quietly eating their humble pie. The few that come back though, became great riders.

So I may not have a high forum rank, but I'm pretty confident I can lap you on your dirt road/pasture or wherever you practice at. In fact I'm certain a couple riders in our group can lap you going backwards.

Going back to the point - I'm not trying to change your mind, but rather show the issues of your perspective so other people struggling with wobbles don't get mislead by your often-wrong advice to other members. 

Which brings me to my next point - for someone who's ridden so many wheels for so long and a "Grand Master" on these forums, it is surprising that you don't actually know very much about riding and in my opinion should not be giving bad advice to other riders. Telling @Forwardnbakthat he fell off his V13 because of the stock tire is just straight up WRONG. The V13 is a heavy wheel and rides high as a top heavy wheel. Riders need to get more time on it before going too fast, and dealing with wind and road conditions is an on-going issue regardless of wheel. Changing the tire is NOT going to prevent falls if you haven't given yourself enough time to adjust to the wheel.

Your V13 setup is also stuck in 2019. No pads and no studded pedals works for you, but trying to make it look like it's better for other riders is straight up horrible advice. A wheel this heavy needs leverage to help stop. You'll die in traffic if you try to ride this setup going on the commute I do daily.

whatever. 

these videos might help u understand. 

 

[mrelwood]

12 hours ago, novazeus said:

whatever. 

these videos might help u understand.

You really can’t see how that GoGeorgeGo’s video directly conflicts with practically everything you have posted on this thread?

 What you said about you teaching older people to golf as a young guy, is something you might want to visit in your head right about now.

Edited April 6, 2023 by mrelwood

[Tasku]

Hello, wobbles are good topic so here is my try to help someone wanting to improve their skills with euc. I would say it is mix of things so lets brake it down

Q: "What causes wobbles?"

A: I would say it is mix of things. Wobbles are often coming from not controlling the wheel. (in Martys case, video above, he watched scenery and slip a passenger during downward slope. Marty is awesome rider, but when you panic, a fall might happen, hence comes trainable tricks handy.) Wobbles come from not having good balance, in terms of applying weight to the wheel. Wobbles come when you least expect em. Wobbles are at their worst if you do not practice a stance to counter em out. Wobbles can come if you have new wheel and it has new weight distribution to it. Wobbles can come when you don't ride for a long time.

-

In my perspective it would be important to learn technique or a pattern of behaviour to counter a wobble. As I mentioned before, there could be lot of reasons for its appearance.

Control stance training:

1.) Stances are often mentioned when teaching people to ride, it is perfect tool to counter wobble and take control of wheel again. It will be life saver if you practice a way to make recovery if you end up in this wobble situation. I know people learn their own way and are proud to ride their style, stances are still the easiest multiversal way to try to teach a method to goto in case you encounter a wobble. Your recovery stance might be lil different from others, reasons being pad-setups and different riders. For example if a rider has one feet longer than other, it might affect your stances.

2.) Example case for basic recovery stance, countering wobbles and giving generally control back:

Putting weight to front (toes) and back (heels) with your opposite feet. This stance has worked for so many, it is very easy to do. If you encounter wobble, do this stance. It also works when going in slopes and curves up or down, and wobbles should be gone. It works cause you apply pressure to the wheel to roll straight.

* Example case of wobble breaking:

A rider has wobbles during braking with his wheel. He put all pressure to back of his heels and put his body back too, and he gets wobbles. A fix to his technique is above, should he put alot pressure to his dominant legs heel and reserve some to his other feets toes, wobble is now gone. Also his posture gets fixed as he starts to focus how he distributes weight to the pedals, he does not need to throw his full body backward as much. He reserves the body thrown back moments to emergency braking situations for now on. Case solved

3.) Another important hack to recover wobbles is the "put weight to rising pedal" - it is like a memory rule to have perfect control. This helps you keep control in curves and recover a wheel out of control. Combining these should get any wheel rather instantly back to control. This is important cause you only have few seconds to do the right thing if your wheel starts to steer somewhere you did not intent.

-----

I hope sincerely these tricks are something people try out, they will save you from lose of control event such as wobbles.

I trained people starting this hobby with these. I was surprised how good they became and also confident recovering wheel in case of odd moment. That said, these tricks work, and save you if you get in trouble.
Because I do not have opportunity to see your stances, I leave you to polish it out yourself, and advice focusing on the weight distribution tricks I meantion above.

Hope this helps someone out. Have fun riding!
**the 2 second rule comes from the practice of recovery. That is roughly the time you have to make a recovery stance. I think if you do not, you will highly likely have a fall instead. Hence I think it is very important to train your brain to go into these trained recovery stances, or alternatively face the music as in have a fall.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Tasku
*wobble breaking hack example **2sec rule

[Stevebee]

18 hours ago, conecones said:
- I commute 30kms to work daily since end of 2019. I ride on the road at car speeds and lane split in heavy city congestion. I've never fallen on the street or hit any person or car.
- I am the main off-road trail guide/ride organizer for my local group (Toronto). I lead both the advanced group (black diamond MTB trails) as well as the beginner group and I teach beginners how to get into off-road riding.
- I won first place in our local off-road/BMX track race last year hosted by RideOne. I won it on a RS HT, competing against skilled riders on suspension wheels - S22's & Master's.
- I've met a couple people new to off-road riding with the same attitude as you. Stubborn, eager, and thinks they know better than the other riders. They are typically new riders who've just started but read a lot of info online and refuse advice from other riders, don't use a tether, etc. I've had the pleasure of witnessing these guys get absolutely destroyed once the group gets going, and at the end of the day, sit there quietly eating their humble pie. The few that come back though, became great riders.

Very impressive but still doesn’t compete with doing the same 500 feet to the garden fence and back at relatively slow speeds - HUNDREDS of time a day - the guys a legend

[Freeforester]

On 4/4/2023 at 12:47 PM, novazeus said:

fyi. more experienced but still gets wobbles.

if this ever happened to me, i would have quit riding. and now i'm riding a v13 that is prone to oscillations. but i still don't get wobbles. 

not debating @mrelwoodbut maybe with marty's video u can tell us all what caused this crash.

 

Blame it on the ol’ Gotway, they’re a bit prone to leave you prone!    Of my wheels, the MSP was the one I had most ‘fun’ wobbling with, until I figured out how to prevent it (slightly asymmetrical stance over the wheel, and the general press more on one side whilst decelerating or accelerating a little to take yourself out of the wobble). Ps - I gotta say, looking at the video, I’m left with the impression that Marty seems to have had a bit of a ‘fixed’ or ‘less than’ to ‘non-dynamic’ stance in the lead up to the wobble, of the kind that suggests to me that ‘should a wobble begins now, it may not end well’.  I think Marty may have been tired also. 
 

Downhill braking is the moment (for me anyway) where most caution is required, for sure.  I’m sorry I’m not able to be more specific/articulate as an observer, but it’s just my observation of his stance prior to the tumble. Most of us have had similar scares, some have corrected it, others have taken evasive action, some have had the event take over.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Freeforester

[novazeus]

the topic of this thread, which @mrelwood created, not me, is “what causes wobbles”,

not how to mitigate them.

i have a new theory.

seeing how i’ve never had wobbles, and reviewing a recent video of dawn champion trying to carry a large stuffed animal in the wind and almost going down, i can’t relate because me trying to carry a 30 gallon trash bag to my dumpster in the wind is impossible.

since all wheels seem to come with selfie sticks, mine didn’t, i’ve never owned a selfie stick and don’t particularly like my photos anyway,

i think selfie sticks are the culprit for causing wobbles.

ditch the stick and ur wobbles will go away.

again my two cents, take it or leave it.!

[Stevebee]

9 minutes ago, novazeus said:

i think selfie sticks are the culprit for causing wobbles

You did a great reveal on Tuesday where you proclaimed that you had solved the issue of wobbles. The whole community waited with bated breath for the great reveal (we obviously had to wait for it to be shown by photos / diagram as this makes it easier to understand).

Then… all it showed was a complete lack of understanding of how the pedals operate and it wasn’t a solution after all (surprise surprise). Today the real culprit was identified - it was the selfie stick all along. Now I’ve had braking wobbles without a selfie stick - maybe I have an extra long index finger which has the same effect, I don’t know.

I did check the date of your post but it wasn’t dated April 1st so Im assuming you are actually serious

[novazeus]

53 minutes ago, Stevebee said:

You did a great reveal on Tuesday where you proclaimed that you had solved the issue of wobbles. The whole community waited with bated breath for the great reveal (we obviously had to wait for it to be shown by photos / diagram as this makes it easier to understand).

Then… all it showed was a complete lack of understanding of how the pedals operate and it wasn’t a solution after all (surprise surprise). Today the real culprit was identified - it was the selfie stick all along. Now I’ve had braking wobbles without a selfie stick - maybe I have an extra long index finger which has the same effect, I don’t know.

I did check the date of your post but it wasn’t dated April 1st so Im assuming you are actually serious

new riders have wobbles because they haven't developed leg strength and proper riding skills. just keep riding, preferably slower, and u won't break anymore ribs.

[Stevebee]

Not the selfie stick…. It’s hard to keep up!
The fall was zero to do with wobbles.. unless you now tell me that you can get wobbles at 2 mph. It was either avoid the small dog or flatten it, decided on the former, which with hindsight I might make a different decision next time😁

I know it’s radical but I try to induce wobbles so I can practice at controlling them. I think if you get them unexpectedly at speed it’s best you have some experience at controlling them to avoid them taking control.

[novazeus]

4 minutes ago, Stevebee said:

Not the selfie stick…. It’s hard to keep up!
The fall was zero to do with wobbles.. unless you now tell me that you can get wobbles at 2 mph. It was either avoid the small dog or flatten it, decided on the former, which with hindsight I might make a different decision next time😁

I know it’s radical but I try to induce wobbles so I can practice at controlling them. I think if you get them unexpectedly at speed it’s best you have some experience at controlling them to avoid them taking control.

better not to get them like myself after 6 years of riding.

referring to riders like marty and dawn that must have legs of steel.

not newbies!

Edited April 7, 2023 by novazeus

[novazeus]

excellent educational video by jon purcell.

https://youtu.be/0iOiUoTX2pA

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

better not to get them like myself after 6 years of riding.

Just to make sure we’re all on the same page, your 6 years of riding includes the 4 or was it 5 years in between of no riding at all? And you did get wobbles just a few weeks ago after all?

 

[rcgldr]

Wobbles during heavy braking could be due to shin orientation. When riding normally, the legs are bent at the knees, with the shins pointed forwards and resting on the upper pads, ahead of the center of weight on the pedals, which increases the angular inertia and dampens oscillations about the yaw (twisting) axis. With heavy braking, especially with a sit back style of braking, it's typical for the shins to be oriented near vertical, reducing angular inertia and the related dampening factor. Regardless of the cause, I've seen a lot of youtubers getting mild wobbles under heavy braking and I experience the same on my V8F, but the wobbles are so mild that it's not an issue and can be ignored. 

A mild squeeze of the upper pads should dampen the tilt related (camber effect) oscillation of wobbles. Youtuber Duf (EUC Army) is so bow-legged that he can't touch the upper pads, and his solution to avoid wobbles is to reduce tire pressure.

In the videos I've watched, the KingSong S18 tends to intermittently wiggle | wander, but it goes away on it's on and the riders just ignore it.

I've only experienced a true wobble one time on my V8F when I first started riding. The wobble was induced during mild braking on a bumpy curve on a paved bike trail and continued until I got past the bumpy section. I was nervous, but the wobble wasn't affecting my ability to control direction and I just rode it out. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by rcgldr

[rcgldr]

On 4/4/2023 at 6:59 AM, novazeus said:

the question is, what physics causes wobbles?

Over-correction. In the case of EUCs, they will self-correct left-right at sufficient speed, due to tilt and camber steering response (twist). If something disturbs the EUC to cause it to tilt or twist, it may end up with an over-correcting oscillation if there isn't sufficient dampening; dampening tilt and|or twist should be enough to stop the wobbles. Something like a bump or groove can disturb an EUC to cause it to tilt or twist to initiate a wobble. A bumpy section can aggravate a wobble due to vertical oscillation causing lateral load oscillations. Worst case is if the EUC is bouncing and wobbling at the same time.

In the case of motorcycles, wobbles are also the result of over-correction, but most modern motorcycles are designed to self-dampen out any disturbance induced wobbles in a second or so. Extreme examples of this can be seen in video of the Ilse of Man motorcycle timed events, 170+ mph on two lane streets where intersections disturb the bikes, causing wheelies and wobbles, but even at these speeds, the bikes stop wobbling in 1 to 2 seconds, and the riders just ignore it. On older motorcycles prone to speed wobbles, like Royal Enfield Atlas, or Kawasaki Mach IV, dual steering dampers (shocks) were installed, one for each side of the handlebars.

Edited April 7, 2023 by rcgldr

[rcgldr]

On 4/6/2023 at 5:26 AM, Tasku said:

Marty is awesome rider, but when you panic, a fall might happen

Marty didn't fall, he deliberately bailed.

[Tasku]

29 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

Marty didn't fall, he deliberately bailed.

He indeed does bail. I assume he had a long ride behind, he tried to take little different posture to save some muscles that might have been sore from that long ride. Only Marty can knows what went down, it is quite the sidetrack, yeah.. He does fall, cause he bailed. The more you bail the more risks of injury too. I watched the video now that you mentioned it. I was remembering that 2yo video events so..

I used a word "panic" cause I thought it would come through well to explain something in quick manner in the contex I was trying to explain, not that I know how Marty felt in detail that moment.

Maybe my personal experience would work better. Let me just describe a moment where I bailed, that ends in a fall to the ground.

-

In my bail to fall situation I was distracted too. I remember a strong feeling something going badly wrong. I gave up the fight cause I did not see the horizon nor the cause that had me lose my balance. Turns out I did hit something that steered my wheel. I think I would have recovered if I had kept my eyes in the road/horizon. 

In comparison to situation where I encounter wobbles, it is different. In such case I take the trained pose to control such, and regain control. I think I remember "Mr.Law" talking about this long time ago, totally inspired me to train recovery postures. If I feel like I would "panic" I would totally bail. Incidently Marty also say in the video his wrist was sore/painful. It is very likely that most of us do hurt wrists during falls. It is horrible habit (that we have naturally learned, just don't do good if we do it in high speed) and can lead to more serious injurys too than some pain in wrist.

So if you can't do the slide, use your bail to roll. But I was hoping my earlier post would help people work toward training and avoid falling. Less falls, less injurys.

Good talk, cheers!

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Tasku

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, rcgldr said:

Youtuber Duf (EUC Army) is so bow-legged that he can't touch the upper pads, and his solution to avoid wobbles is to reduce tire pressure.

haha, u said it, not me, but i did notice it.

[mrelwood]

 

1 hour ago, rcgldr said:

A mild squeeze of the upper pads should dampen the tilt related (camber effect) oscillation of wobbles.

Based on how I felt back when I rode my feet close enough together to squeeze the wheel, and based on what others have said also, a symmetrical squeeze doesn’t help. At least not very much. Unsymmetrical does though, as it dampens the vibration effectively without having to tense both of your legs (which does make the wobble worse).

 But I would expect that if you have soft knees bent enough for the shin contact to be noticeably forward from the axle, squeezing the wheel might indeed work. But straight legs tensed up, no.

1 hour ago, rcgldr said:

his solution to avoid wobbles is to reduce tire pressure.

It does indeed work. One reason why one shouldn’t aim for the maximum pressure stated on the tire.