What causes wobbles? (Split from: “Inmotion V13 Speculation”)

[novazeus]

so 40.6 miles today. two 20.3 practice sessions. two walks with Bob. 

i still wanna know about the fragility of these new wheels. like what happened?

and i still don't understand the part about closing the gap on the suspension tube things. like is their a symptom that lets u know that u need to tighten them?

today i got the worst case of braking wobbles i've ever experienced. nbd but i don't understand the physics why the wheel wobbles on hard braking. we need an exclusive v13 owners riding impressions thread, because this wheel is very different from any other wheel i've owned. it takes some serious leg and hip strength at slow speeds. very top heavy. very heavy period. if it wasn't so challenging(oops) i wouldn't like it as much.

 

[novazeus]

i've never had issues with wobbles. i'm a bottom of my feet type rider. that's the only thing in contact with the wheel. the body of the wheel can oscillate between my legs and sometimes touch leaning into corners or slow maneuvers. but yesterday, braking fairly hard going into my 90 degree curve at around 27 mph, i noticed more wobble than normal. i do this curve 100's of times during my daily practice session, and normally there's not much wobble. i'm just curious what exactly is the cause of this v13 braking wobble is? is it the tire, the suspension? i don't think it's me, the wheel is free to do what it wants, i'm just standing on the pedals and shifting my weight to my heels from the balls of my feet.

like with motorcycles, braking is huge and mastering braking is challenging.(why i got abs on my road king).

[mrelwood]

25 minutes ago, novazeus said:

i'm just curious what exactly is the cause of this v13 braking wobble is?

The reason is most probably exactly the same as it is for other wheels: stiff legs. I can imagine that braking a behemoth like that without pads is probably really difficult to do with relaxed legs.

 And only having a few hundred miles on the new wheel makes it a bit of a stranger still. Once you get more miles done, you’ll probably learn better how the wheel wants to be braked for it not to wobble. You might end up revisiting the idea of braking pads for example.

[novazeus]

36 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The reason is most probably exactly the same as it is for other wheels: stiff legs. I can imagine that braking a behemoth like that without pads is probably really difficult to do with relaxed legs.

 And only having a few hundred miles on the new wheel makes it a bit of a stranger still. Once you get more miles done, you’ll probably learn better how the wheel wants to be braked for it not to wobble. You might end up revisiting the idea of braking pads for example.

40 miles equals 105 times i brake for my curve from 25 mph plus. so i get lots of practice braking. only rarely do i get braking wobbles that are violent, once in fact. 

feet, legs, everything the same. i'm gonna play with how much i stick my butt backwards. 

actually the v13 brakes quite nicely just using my feet. better than the s22, but i did move my pedals forward on it. for my style of fiding, accurate foot placement is paramount. 5mm one way or another is huge. i play around with foot placement until it's dialed in, and i remember on each wheel exactly where they need to be. 

i see very experienced riders, like the jon purcell video i posted about his michelin on his sherm s, and he has pads and yet he has wobbles worse than me.

wrong way and go george go commented on braking wobbles and maybe they have a correct theory. if u go from hard acceleration to hard braking, that causes wobbles. for me to hit 27 mph in 500' i  have to accelerate pretty good and if i hold that acceleration until too close to the curve and have to brake rapidly, i think that is the cause. 

like if i accelerate rapidly, but get off the accelerator and then brake, like coast for a bit and then brake, no wobbles. 

so if wrong way, jon purcell, go george go gets wobbles, and i never had wobbles until the v13 braking thing, i don't think its pads or rider experience. chooch had acceleration death wobbles, and he's got a few miles under his belt. maybe it's the motor not liking the immediate transition from hard acceleration to hard braking. 

i'm still trying to figure out what the shock gap adjustment is. like what are the symptoms causing u to need to adjust them?

Edited April 3, 2023 by novazeus

[conecones]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

i've never had issues with wobbles. i'm a bottom of my feet type rider. that's the only thing in contact with the wheel. the body of the wheel can oscillate between my legs and sometimes touch leaning into corners or slow maneuvers. but yesterday, braking fairly hard going into my 90 degree curve at around 27 mph, i noticed more wobble than normal. i do this curve 100's of times during my daily practice session, and normally there's not much wobble. i'm just curious what exactly is the cause of this v13 braking wobble is? is it the tire, the suspension? i don't think it's me, the wheel is free to do what it wants, i'm just standing on the pedals and shifting my weight to my heels from the balls of my feet.

like with motorcycles, braking is huge and mastering braking is challenging.(why i got abs on my road king).

The mistake is fooling yourself thinking you can prevent wobbles rather than focusing on how to get out of wobbles safely. Everyone gets wobbles, experienced or not, with pads or not, if you ride enough they will just happen sometimes but its almost always rider induced - occasionally road condition & wind can be factors, but again, only the rider's skill/experience can get them out of a wobble. No adjustment on the tire, suspension, software, Jesus mod/whatever is going to save you.

 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

40 miles equals 105 times i brake for my curve from 25 mph plus. so i get lots of practice braking. only rarely do i get braking wobbles that are violent, once in fact.

So you have only had one practice for getting out of wobbles. You need more practice on that.

Braking slightly offset is what many riders seem to use. Like tilting the wheel slightly to the side, or leaning one leg against the shell during braking, etc. Those are what I mainly use for situations where I think that I could get wobbles.

 It’s not at all about the total mileage of the rider. It’s the mileage you’ve got on that specific wheel. I have ridden for more than 20’000 miles in total, and I would definitely get wobbles at first if I braked hard on any new wheel. Because the wheel would not be familiar, I wouldn’t be able to relax my feet while riding and braking. Stiff leg muscles = wobbles.

Braking pads are not something that would magically remove wobbles immediately once installed. But they can help in keeping one’s legs relaxed while braking, which in turn does help a ton.

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

if u go from hard acceleration to hard braking, that causes wobbles.

It does, because it’s very hard to do with relaxed legs. I still haven’t figured out myself how to do it.

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

maybe it's the motor not liking the immediate transition from hard acceleration to hard braking.

No matter what the motor did, even if it went on a full rodeo, it wouldn’t create or sustain any side to side movement. The motor, the controller, or any other part of the wheel than a bent rim or a badly set tire can’t create or sustain wobbles. And even those can be mitigated by the rider.

 

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

i'm still trying to figure out what the shock gap adjustment is. like what are the symptoms causing u to need to adjust them?

Power on the wheel, and push and pull rapidly back and forth on the handle. If you can hear or feel any slop/play/rattle/klunking, you need to tighten the screws. If you tighten too much though, the suspension travel gets tight and the suspension feels overly stiff and hard.

 If you don’t feel any play and if the suspension works well, you don’t need to do anything.

 I’d imagine that you should be able to get the perfect setting for them by deflating the shocks, loosening the screws a bit, and then tightening them up little by little while pushing and pulling the suspension up and down. Once you can feel that the suspension doesn’t travel as easily anymore, back up just a tad. Repeat for the other side.

[novazeus]

47 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

So you have only had one practice for getting out of wobbles. You need more practice on that.

well, i’d define wheel oscillations, which seems perfectly normal, yeah, i get that all the time, nbd, the wheel just trues itself and other than gently bouncing off my legs with it’s yoga mat, nbd.

there was no recovery from the most braking wobble i’ve ever felt since riding wheels, again, i don’t interfere i just ride it out. same with a tank slap on a motorcycle. the race ktm i have has a steering damper.

i’ve been fascinated by “death wobbles” since 2017 when i started following wheels and since i didn’t know what they were, and since i never had any. one of the mods back then said i wasn’t going fast enough, but my ks 18s waa capable of 30mph and i know i rode it at the same speed occasionally as the v13.

and i’ve witness on video numerous very experienced riders, like jonathan whalley have braking wobbles.

i’ve never had acceleration wobbles but i can see how that can happen. 

not looking for how to ride or modify my wheel advice, i’m just curious what phenomenon is causing wobbles. i’m pretty sure switching from acceleration to braking rapidly is the cause, but what is actually causing it. stiff legs, flexed legs, i don’t think is it. although on a side note, stiff legs are hard on ur knees, squat position, hard on ur quads, i mix it up.

i mean, i’ve had one tank slap on my ktm superduke r and i didn’t ever want to ride it afterwards. and i still don’t know what caused it, for sure, just theories. didn’t go down but it beat me up.

i hope one of these daredevil riders will test my theory, mine and go george go and ww, because i’m too old to crash checking out theories. i know i can avoid wobbles by smoothly transitioning from acceleration to braking, like i said, i do my curve 105 times daily. i agree, it’s not about miles driven, it’s about how u practice.

47 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Power on the wheel, and push and pull rapidly back and forth on the handle. If you can hear or feel any slop/play/rattle/klunking, you need to tighten the screws. If you tighten too much though, the suspension travel gets tight and the suspension feels overly stiff and hard.

 If you don’t feel any play and if the suspension works well, you don’t need to do anything.

 I’d imagine that you should be able to get the perfect setting for them by deflating the shocks, loosening the screws a bit, and then tightening them up little by little while pushing and pulling the suspension up and down. Once you can feel that the suspension doesn’t travel as easily anymore, back up just a tad. Repeat for the other side.

thanks for that. the v13 is the noisest wheel i’ve ever owned the way u describe to check it. but that’s a good idea about deflating the shocks and, if i understand u correctly, u tighten both sides, snug them up until u get stitchion?

i also do 105 starts and it grunts and groans everytime. remember all the vids displaying that?

the way i control a wheel, there’s 4 contact points continuously, the front of the pedals, that’s two, and the rear of the pedals making 4. so when i brake, i’m merely shifting my weight from the front of the pedals to the rear of the pedals, that’s it. no legs, no nothing.

maybe if my weight shift in my feet isn’t perfectly balanced, like 60 pounds on my left heel and 55 pounds on my right heel, that might be it. i mean, right after having the severe braking wobbles in less than a minute, i’m braking again for my curve, same speed, zero wobbles.

i’ve yet to find out what the physics are behind braking wobbles. i know some riders ride with left foot and right foot positioned differently.

[novazeus]

2 hours ago, conecones said:

The mistake is fooling yourself thinking you can prevent wobbles rather than focusing on how to get out of wobbles safely. Everyone gets wobbles, experienced or not, with pads or not, if you ride enough they will just happen sometimes but its almost always rider induced - occasionally road condition & wind can be factors, but again, only the rider's skill/experience can get them out of a wobble. No adjustment on the tire, suspension, software, Jesus mod/whatever is going to save you.

 

hard to practice something if u never get wobbles. 

oscillations yes, but fairly violent wobble once in 6 years and 11 wheels. nbd, i just ride it out.

just still nobody can explain what causes the phenomenon of “braking wobbles”, acceleration wobbles might be the same, but for now, and like i say, it isn’t just me, it’s riders with thousands of miles and great skill on their wheels that don’t seem to understand what causes it. 

since my legs don’t clinch the wheel the way the new people to wheels are learning now, i don’t think it’s rider induced, or why would these guys that can do all kinds of riding would have them and not know why.

wrong way got braking wobbles on the v13, jon purcell got braking wobbles on his sherm s. 

[mrelwood]

 

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

the race ktm i have has a steering damper.

That’s kind of what the tips in my previous posts do on an EUC.

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

i’ve been fascinated by “death wobbles” since 2017

Then I would think that you have also read some of the many existing discussions on why wobbles exist. Wobbles have been discussed in detail several times, on what the movement actually is, what keeps it up, and theories on what starts it.

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

but what is actually causing it. stiff legs, flexed legs, i don’t think is it.

Thinking might not get you very far. Me and my brother have tested this several times, and a few guys here also confirmed the results. It’s an easy test: Start crouching slowly while riding at for example 20mph on flat asphalt. Crouch as you would on solid ground, when your heels lift up a bit and you keep your body up with tense angle and other tense leg muscles. Instant wobble. Stand up straight so the wobble stops so you won’t crash.

 Then, start crouching while concentrating on keeping your ankles relaxed. Your heels will stay firmly on the pedals, and you will only use your upper leg muscles to keep your body up. Result: Zero wobbles.

 I’m not sure if the test works (or wobbles even happen much) on gravel roads or when riding on rubble, pastures etc. We tested it on flat asphalt.

 

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

if i understand u correctly, u tighten both sides, snug them up until u get stitchion?

… And then back out until you get them in a way that doesn’t cause any sticktion and also doesn’t rattle.

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

i also do 105 starts and it grunts and groans everytime.

It seems to be normal on 22” wheels. 

 

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

i’ve yet to find out what the physics are behind braking wobbles.

If you’ve ever played with a separate bicycle or motorcycle tire, you probably know that when launching a tire with your hands, it often wobbles even when you try to launch it straight. The tubular shape of the tire causes rapid left-right movements to steer the tire because of a camber effect of such a tire. When the tire tilts left, it steers left, but the upper part of the tire tries to keep going in the direction the mass of the tire was already going, causing the tire to tilt right, which again steers right, and continues like this back and forth as what we call a wobble.

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

just still nobody can explain what causes the phenomenon of “braking wobbles”

The theories that we came up with at earlier discussions seemed pretty solid.

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

riders with thousands of miles and great skill on their wheels that don’t seem to understand what causes it.

Many very experienced riders don’t even understand how they stay upright while accelerating. Understanding the physics of EUC riding is completely separate to riding skill. Just like being a tennis world champion doesn’t automatically make you great at sewing sportswear.

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

i don’t think it’s rider induced

You said it yourself, after your wobble you rode the same spot again without getting a wobble. Do you think that something in your wheel changed between the runs? No. Or on the surface you were riding on? I don’t think so. The only thing that had even the possibility of changing somehow was how you commanded and controlled the wheel.

[novazeus]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Then I would think that you have also read some of the many existing discussions on why wobbles exist. Wobbles have been discussed in detail several times, on what the movement actually is, what keeps it up, and theories on what starts it.

no, i haven't read the theories on what starts wobbles, and i don't care because i just finished today's practice session and i know exactly where speed and braking wobbles come from. i'll have to draw u a picture later.

 

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Many very experienced riders don’t even understand how they stay upright while accelerating. Understanding the physics of EUC riding is completely separate to riding skill. Just like being a tennis world champion doesn’t automatically make you great at sewing sportswear.

absolutely agree. i became a teaching golf pro at 16 in 1970 making $10 an hour. jack nicklaus and arnold palmer couldn't teach anything. tiger has done a good job with his son however. 

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

You said it yourself, after your wobble you rode the same spot again without getting a wobble.

yeah, do the math. 40 miles times 5280 divided by 2000'(approx length of my road)is 105 one way trips. that's equals 105 cold starts, and 105 precision stops at my rail from 25 mph, 105 slow down brakings for my 90 degree curve(pretty frigging slow because there's lots of leaves and oak blossoms, so i don't lean into the curve), 

and this is one day of practice, and i got the wheel a couple of weeks ago, and i had what i would call a wobble, instead of just minor oscillation once. splain that lucy.

but yeah, ur partly correct and i totally disagree with @conecones, it's much better to never get wobbles like me, than to have to fight them. 

i figured it out finally. why i never got wobbles, and why others do. but u gotta wait a bit so i can draw u a picture. it behooves all of us to figure out what causes these anomalies. just like figuring out why an experienced rider like @Forwardnbakcrashed into that wall. the stock knobby tire caused that crash, not rider error. the stock knobby might be fine for trails, but on pavement, it might have a mind of it's own, like it did with him.

in the meantime, bob yan, "king me"(pun intended), i got u 700km plus. my feet hurt. that's a long time standing. km makes it more exciting looking

american

and btw, zero wobbles, and after figuring out what actually causes wobbles, oscillations, zero oscillations. course i've been practicing this way for years and never having any wobbles. it's not straight legs, loose legs, etc etc, it's very simple, but a drawing, a picture is woth a thousand words thing, will make it crystal clear and hopefully keep humans uninjured in the future. like i've said, up until yesterday, on one going into the curve braking, never had a wobble even though for two weeks now i've had the same situation. and it's not switching from hard acceleration to hard braking either. pads are not ur friend btw, unless ur a jumper.

precision stopping with the challenger(perfect name because it is definitely the most difficult wheel to master)v13(again, good number, cause u will think ur unlucky when ur falling over at a stop), is a big hoot. when i roll up to my rails where i could stop with zero momentum, that's a bingo.

i'll be back with my sketch later. Bob has been patiently waiting for his second outing. little eerie today because there's a dead cow bird near my gate so i was met by a buzzard hanging out on my hitching post and he flew over to another post about ten feet away and just sat there. i was thinking he knew about wheels and was hoping for a crash. then i had a black snake cross in front of me twice. the v13 would have cut him in half. don't run over ur toe with this michelin at 40psi. ask me how i know.

[Forwardnbak]

I really have to grip this wheel with my knees, I kinda like the force you have to give it to show it who’s in control, braking and speed cornering is when it wants to fight and wobble. 

I’m finding the combo of slightly twisting body, lowering gravity, the right lean and thighs holding the wheel with the outer leg tight when cornering all makes for a fun little workout.

Then onto V11 and you over correct everything and it’s hilarious fun.

All fun atm In my world wheeling. At 730km now and the v13 is feeling much more comfortable. 

[conecones]

6 hours ago, novazeus said:

hard to practice something if u never get wobbles. 

So practice it then...induce some wobbles so you know how to get out of them, since this topic is so interesting to you. Just like defensive driving courses and winter safety courses teach you how to safely maneuver the slide if and when it actually does happen to you on the road. It will be rare, so you practice it and are ready when it does happen, rather than hoping it doesn't or foolishly thinking it'll never happen to you because you've got it all figured out. There's so so many variables (many out of your conscious control) that can cause wobbles.

6 hours ago, novazeus said:

since my legs don’t clinch the wheel the way the new people to wheels are learning now, i don’t think it’s rider induced, or why would these guys that can do all kinds of riding would have them and not know why.

An EUC doesn't move without rider input. Hitting a pothole at a weird angle can start a wobble. Having tired legs can induce a wobble. Moving from sitting to standing can induce wobble. You can't defy Newton's third law. 

1 hour ago, novazeus said:

but yeah, ur partly correct and i totally disagree with @conecones, it's much better to never get wobbles like me, than to have to fight them. 

i figured it out finally. why i never got wobbles, and why others do. but u gotta wait a bit so i can draw u a picture. it behooves all of us to figure out what causes these anomalies. just like figuring out why an experienced rider like @Forwardnbakcrashed into that wall. the stock knobby tire caused that crash, not rider error. the stock knobby might be fine for trails, but on pavement, it might have a mind of it's own, like it did with him.

You know what comes with knowing how to fight wobbles? Stress free riding. Instead of racking your brain on why it happens and worrying about it, you just ride and be happy. When you know how to fight it, such as sitting down/squatting, carving/shifting weight onto one leg, etc, you can remove the wobble within a second, and it becomes second nature. It's a much safer mindset to accept wobbles and learn to deal with them, than to think you can find a way to prevent them 100%. Why don't you message the good riders you mentioned and ask them if they agree with you that there's some undiscovered technique that can prevent all wobbles?

[novazeus]

ok. now forget about power pads, jump pads or whatever u call the things that are available now.

a two hundred pound rider exerts force on the pedals. downward force on the pedals is what causes the wheel to balance in one place, move forward straight, or brake straight, or go right or left.

first here's a picture of my only wheel with the pedals in the correct position after i moved then forward. it puts my leg in the center of the wheel, where it should be.

now here's a picture of a 200 pound rider's down force balancing and not moving.

if the rider wants to move forward straight, without wobbles he exerts his weight equally like this.

if the rider wants to stop straight without wobbles, he changes his foot pressure to this.

here is an example of how an acceleration wobble starts. the rider veers right, then overcorrects left, and a chain reaction begins.

ditto for braking. a little out of balance and overcorrecting. 

this is the reason after 6 years of riding i never had wobbles because i control the wheel with my feet and not my legs. evidently i'm pretty good at equally putting force on the balls and heels of my feet after years of practice. 

and no thank u, i don't need to induce wobbles to practice getting out of wobbles. should my wheel get wonky after hitiing something, i just let the wheel correct itself without my interference. remember, i ride in my pastures with hidden cones in the grass, cow turds, i know all about irregular surfaces. no wobbles there either.

so after i figured this out today, i even eliminated the occasional oscillation. 

if u like wobbles, have at it, but if u don't just try to understand the physics of what makes a wheel go and stop. pretty simple, forward weight bias, or rearward weight bias, and if it's balanced, no wobbles. 

i don't get wobbles and 27.5 mph is plenty fast to have braking wobbles because in 2017, hardly any wheel went that fast and humans were wobbling all over the place. 

 

 

 

 

[novazeus]

32 minutes ago, conecones said:

So practice it then...induce some wobbles so you know how to get out of them, since this topic is so interesting to you. Just like defensive driving courses and winter safety courses teach you how to safely maneuver the slide if and when it actually does happen to you on the road. It will be rare, so you practice it and are ready when it does happen, rather than hoping it doesn't or foolishly thinking it'll never happen to you because you've got it all figured out. There's so so many variables (many out of your conscious control) that can cause wobbles.

An EUC doesn't move without rider input. Hitting a pothole at a weird angle can start a wobble. Having tired legs can induce a wobble. Moving from sitting to standing can induce wobble. You can't defy Newton's third law. 

You know what comes with knowing how to fight wobbles? Stress free riding. Instead of racking your brain on why it happens and worrying about it, you just ride and be happy. When you know how to fight it, such as sitting down/squatting, carving/shifting weight onto one leg, etc, you can remove the wobble within a second, and it becomes second nature. It's a much safer mindset to accept wobbles and learn to deal with them, than to think you can find a way to prevent them 100%. Why don't you message the good riders you mentioned and ask them if they agree with you that there's some undiscovered technique that can prevent all wobbles?

u wouldn't make it 50 yards in my pastures. 

and my riding is stress free, because i never get wobbles, ever! once in 6 years is an anomaly. 

u can practice wobbling all u want, i'll practice safe braking and accelerating.

haha, should i also practice crashing because i never crash?

u do u, i'll do me.

Edited April 4, 2023 by novazeus
typo

[mrelwood]

 

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

here is an example of how an acceleration wobble starts. the rider veers right, then overcorrects left, and a chain reaction begins.

 

Few questions:

1) How is the above diagram different from just steering to the right?

2) If the diagram is what causes wobbles, how do you steer with a wheel without wobbles?

3) Can you purposefully and repeatedly start wobbles by applying more pressure on the other pedal like that?

[novazeus]

33 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 

Few questions:

1) How is the above diagram different from just steering to the right?

2) If the diagram is what causes wobbles, how do you steer with a wheel without wobbles?

3) Can you purposefully and repeatedly start wobbles by applying more pressure on the other pedal like that?

presuming the rider wants to go straight and not veer to the right. so the rider to correct, presses on the left front. and then back to the right front. etc. also presuming from a standstill. feet position on the pedals must be neutral, or balanced, front to back, ie not moving forward or backwards. 

different ways to steer. the 200 pound rider can put 60 front and 60 rear on the right pedal ie lean, and have only 40 front and 40 rear on the left pedal. another example, after i'm halfway thru my right hand turn, i'm 50 50 on the left pedal and 60 front and 40 rear on the right. just try riding just with the bottoms of ur feet. no leg clinching the wheel, which does cause wobbles as well, because the wheel can't correct itself. my feet are at the outside edge of my pedals. wht i had to ditch those stupid nubs on the v13, they were hurting my feet like an acorn in my shoes. 

euc manufacturers don't even know where to put the pedals front to back. they put the pedals centered on the wheel, but our legs aren't centered on our feet, why i had to move the s22 pedals forward. then i could place my foot on the pedal and not have my toes hanging off the front like i have to do on the s18 and v13. what's the point of having larger pedals when the back inch or so isn't even used?

yeah, u can get acceleration wobbles by stomping on the front of the pedals unequally. 

same as driving a car. turn the wheel slightly right, stomp on the gas pedal, and u will immediately need to jerk the steering wheel left, and probably overcorrect.

next time u ride, think about where ur weight is on the pedals. try riding ur  v11 just using the balls and heels of ur feet with ur legs not touching the wheel. in corners it may touch a small amount.

in teaching golf, we did the same with bathroom scales so students could understand the weight shift in the golf swing.

also in golf, i teach that the big muscles control the little muscles, that's why sticking ur ass backwards is a good way to know ur rearward pressure is equal, same with a forward lean. but ultimately, it's the bottom of ur feet driving the wheel, not ur legs. 

imho, spiked pedals and power pads are gonna hurt alot of humans. already have. u gotta be able to disengage cleanly.

Edited April 4, 2023 by novazeus

[mrelwood]

35 minutes ago, novazeus said:

different ways to steer. the 200 pound rider can put 60 front and 60 rear on the right pedal ie lean, and have only 40 front and 40 rear on the left pedal.

Do you realize that both pedals are connected to each other, causing them to behave the same as a large fixed plate? The input to the wheel is identical with Left 60-40 and Right 40-60, than Left 50-50 and Right 50-50.

I always brake unsymmetrically. My other pedal receives more weight at the rear than the other. Yet I practically never get braking wobbles. Based on your lone theory, that should cause braking wobbles. How do you explain that?

35 minutes ago, novazeus said:

yeah, u can get acceleration wobbles by stomping on the front of the pedals unequally. 

Have you actually tried it? Can you successfully and repeatedly create wobbles by having more weight on one of the pedals while accelerating? I have tried it, and that’s actually how I usually accelerate. Yet I have never gotten acceleration wobbles. How do you explain that?

[Cerbera]

Just now, mrelwood said:

I always brake unsymmetrically. My other pedal receives more weight at the rear than the other. Yet I practically never get braking wobbles. Based on your lone theory, that should cause braking wobbles.

Yeah I have to concur with that. I have left and right pads pads offset (front to back), and I have left leg constantly in contact with acceleration pad and right leg constantly in contact with brake pad. There is always uneven acceleration and braking using this technique, and it does not, of itself induce wobbles IME, and I am on a very top-heavy machine with a very wobble-prone tyre (C-186 knobby) ! The rare cases I get of the wobbles happen when I let tension creep into my legs...

[novazeus]

the pedals are not connected to each other. i can take one pedal off a wheel and leave the other one on. they are separated by the width of the wheel. 

and 

12 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The input to the wheel is identical with Left 60-40 and Right 40-60, than Left 50-50 and Right 50-50.

haha, not hardly. try a wobble board with ur theory. i used to keep my left foot somewhat neutral and use my right foot as the accelerator foot on small wheels like ur v11. the v13 at 117 pounds, a michelin street pilot 2 tubeless tire inflated to 40psi is a different story, try it, u will see. i don't run my tires flattened as u do either.

 

12 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Have you actually tried it? Can you successfully and repeatedly create wobbles by having more weight on one of the pedals while accelerating? I have tried it, and that’s actually how I usually accelerate. Yet I have never gotten acceleration wobbles. How do you explain that?

depends on the wheel size and how flat u run ur tire. running a flat tire is a crutch for lack of riding skills. although doing 42.7 miles without a break is hard on ur feet.

and no, if u want to experience a speed wobble at speed, ur on ur own, but ur can get  irregularities starting out with unequal weight on the left and right pedal.

the reason why i'm fascinated about the cause of wobbles, is because i never ever had any ever, until yesterday, one time after 105 brakings in one practice session. no wobbles ever! none! zip! nada! 

if u like wobbles, keep doing what ur doing. try a v13. 

[novazeus]

11 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

Yeah I have to concur with that. I have left and right pads pads offset (front to back), and I have left leg constantly in contact with acceleration pad and right leg constantly in contact with brake pad. There is always uneven acceleration and braking using this technique, and it does not, of itself induce wobbles IME, and I am on a very top-heavy machine with a very wobble-prone tyre (C-186 knobby) ! The rare cases I get of the wobbles happen when I let tension creep into my legs...

i've never had wobbles since starting to ride in 2017. i never touch the wheel with my legs. i ride the wheel like u would ride a skateboard or one wheel. i ride the wheel and let the wheel do it's thing. if ur riding stony trails, ur experience or style may be different, i've never ridden a trail. i'm strictly talking about pavement wobbles and if i looked, i could probably find lots of riders on youtube that have lots more miles under their belt, yet still have wobbles. check out jon purcell's video i posted yesterday. 

[soulson]

Interesting conversation. I've been dealing with brake wobble quite a lot since I got the V13, riding around my neighborhood accelerating and braking constantly as practice. Seems I may have been approaching it the wrong way though: I've been trying to focus on braking perfectly symmetrically. Maybe I need to try intentionally antisymmetric braking. Thanks for the advice; it's supposed to rain heavily here for the next few days, but I'll report back after the next time I ride.

I even had a nasty wobble today while braking up to a traffic light on the way to work. A bit scary, but I did manage to keep it under control coming up to the traffic light with plenty of space. It was enough to remind me that I should not have been riding as fast as I was, though.

Brake wobble aside, I've got a few hundred miles on the V13 now and most of the other "acclimation" issues I had to deal with week one are under control. I am not having any further trouble free mounting on inclines, accelerating with stability, or getting randomly yanked off in some lateral direction when I encounter slightly banked pavement.

And at least so far—knock on wood—I haven't been having any issues with battery, shocks, sensors, noises, etc. I was out in a rain shower today for a half hour ride, too, and didn't have any water trouble.

[mrelwood]

@novazeus, I’m losing interest in this discussion, fast. You don’t answer the questions I ask you, you are not interested in the opinions of more experienced or more knowledgeable people than yourself, and you seem to have problems understanding a few rather basic aspects of what we’re discussing.

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

the pedals are not connected to each other. i can take one pedal off a wheel and leave the other one on. they are separated by the width of the wheel.

Dude, connected parts can usually be detached from each other. The pedals are connected to each other through a fixed framework. They don’t tilt forward and backwards on their own. Tilting one pedal forward also tilts the other pedal forwards.

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

haha, not hardly. try a wobble board with ur theory.

I’m really not interested in wobble boards. I’m interested in EUCs. Please explain to us how is it different to have the foot pressures 40-60 on the left leg and 60-40 on the right one, compared to all 50?

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

the v13 at 117 pounds, a michelin street pilot 2 tubeless tire inflated to 40psi is a different story

Are you really saying that the above comparison of offset foot pressures makes no difference on the V11, but does make a difference on the heavier V13? If so, please tell us what is the exact wheel weight after which it starts to matter?

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

i don't run my tires flattened as u do either.

I actually run my tires at a pretty standard EUC pressures. If you’d read around a bit you’d know what pressures people are generally using.

2 hours ago, novazeus said:

and no, if u want to experience a speed wobble at speed, ur on ur own

So, you are certain that your theory of how to induce a wobble is correct, although you have never heard anyone else try it, nor are you interested in trying it yourself?

This really doesn’t meet my standards for a meaningful debate or conversation. I was hoping you could do better.

[Funky]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Tilting one pedal forward also tilts the other pedal forwards.

Actually you could "screw" them tilted. One more forwards one backwards.  

[novazeus]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

@novazeus, I’m losing interest in this discussion, fast. You don’t answer the questions I ask you, you are not interested in the opinions of more experienced or more knowledgeable people than yourself, and you seem to have problems understanding a few rather basic aspects of what we’re discussing.

Dude, connected parts can usually be detached from each other. The pedals are connected to each other through a fixed framework. They don’t tilt forward and backwards on their own. Tilting one pedal forward also tilts the other pedal forwards.

I’m really not interested in wobble boards. I’m interested in EUCs. Please explain to us how is it different to have the foot pressures 40-60 on the left leg and 60-40 on the right one, compared to all 50?

Are you really saying that the above comparison of offset foot pressures makes no difference on the V11, but does make a difference on the heavier V13? If so, please tell us what is the exact wheel weight after which it starts to matter?

I actually run my tires at a pretty standard EUC pressures. If you’d read around a bit you’d know what pressures people are generally using.

So, you are certain that your theory of how to induce a wobble is correct, although you have never heard anyone else try it, nor are you interested in trying it yourself?

This really doesn’t meet my standards for a meaningful debate or conversation. I was hoping you could do better.

i have no desire to debate this either. i don't have wobbles, u do. idk how humans rode wheels at all before power pads.

btw, different sport, but at 16 i was teaching golf professionally to humans older and more experienced than me, and they were paying me $10 an hour in 1970. just because u have been doing it wrong for years, doesn't make it correct. 

i still have lots to learn, but not having wobbles isn't one of them.i don't have wobbles. i don't crash either.

Edited April 4, 2023 by novazeus

[mrelwood]

20 minutes ago, novazeus said:

i have no desire to debate this either.

You said you were interested in finding out why they happen. I mistook that for being interested in actually learning.

20 minutes ago, novazeus said:

i don't have wobbles, u do.

I actually don’t, more than maybe three times in total. Once per 10’000 km. I use preventing methods to avoid them.

20 minutes ago, novazeus said:

idk how humans rode wheels at all before power pads.

I do. But I take it that you’re not interested in learning about this either…