What’s the point of higher voltage? (Split from “Sherman-S 3600wh: 100V, 20", suspension, 97lb”)

[Planemo]

19 hours ago, soulson said:

The primary thing I've learned from hanging out on this forum is that a lot of people do not have a solid understanding of how the EUCs they ride actually work 

For sure!

Thankfully, most people do 'get it' eventually although it may take a good few posts/examples!

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

21 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

the ex30 has the same speeds as my ex20hs but has way more torque than the ex20ht

Again not sure what your point is.

Isn't he giving an example of a wheel which answers the question posed by the title of this thread.

[Planemo]

3 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Isn't he giving an example of a wheel which answers the question posed by the title of this thread.

Fair enough, just confusing when the vast majority of the thread has been about claiming that a rider can feel the difference in power between 2 wheels when they aren't beeping or over torqueing either of them, not that an EX30 is better in power to an EX20HS/HT (which it obviously will be).

[JeremySPFF]

10 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Isn't he giving an example of a wheel which answers the question posed by the title of this thread.

I don't see how his feelings answer the question. If I were to say I disagree and the EX20HT has much more torque than the EX30, how would you prove me wrong? You can't prove a feeling wrong. I am looking for data to compare instead of feelings to determine what the 100v vs 134v difference is.

 

I get to see my first EX30 tonight or tomorrow. Does anyone have any recommendations on a fair acceleration test?

[GoGeorgeGo]

43 minutes ago, JeremySPFF said:

I don't see how his feelings answer the question. If I were to say I disagree and the EX20HT has much more torque than the EX30, how would you prove me wrong? You can't prove a feeling wrong. I am looking for data to compare instead of feelings to determine what the 100v vs 134v difference is.

 

I get to see my first EX30 tonight or tomorrow. Does anyone have any recommendations on a fair acceleration test?

its not a feeling, its empirical data points of me overtorquing the wheel to cutout. you can watch how pathetic it is in my god mod review video where i over torque the wheel about 9 times on the incline test.

i have also over stepped the torque limits several times riding it normally

even if you think the torque on the ex20ht is the same somehow, its not debateable that the ex30 is dramatically faster for the same torque

i was simply giving a real world example of why someone who isnt doing kuji leans can benefit from higher voltage. i thought the ex20 illustrates the point perfectly since the ex30 is a updated version of the same wheel but with the benefits 134v brings

Edited March 22, 2023 by GoGeorgeGo

[Bizra6ot]

38 minutes ago, JeremySPFF said:

 If I were to say I disagree and the EX20HT has much more torque than the EX30, how would you prove me wrong? 

C40>C38 

[JeremySPFF]

7 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

its not a feeling, its empirical data points of me overtorquing the wheel to cutout.

The definition of empirical data is 'relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory'.  I feel like everyone is missing the point. If I were to compare two cars, like a corvette and mustang, I could easily search and see the horsepower ratings, the 0-60 time, and the 1/4 mile time. I would never go to uncle george and ask him which one feels faster.

https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/corvette-2022

0-60 - 2.8 seconds

1/4 mile - 11.2

Horsepower - 490

https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/mustang-2022

0-60 - 4.4 seconds

1/4 mile - 12.8

Horsepower - 450

 

Why do we accept the marketing jargon of EUC companies and feelings of reviewers to determine which wheel we select? 134v means nothing unless tested. There is an easy and clear way to determine performance. I am going to attempt to compare the EX30 with the Sherman-S with stock tires, a neutral rider, and a set distance.

[Planemo]

3 minutes ago, JeremySPFF said:

Why do we accept the marketing jargon of EUC companies and feelings of reviewers to determine which wheel we select? 134v means nothing unless tested. There is an easy and clear way to determine performance. I am going to attempt to compare the EX30 with the Sherman-S with stock tires, a neutral rider, and a set distance.

Ahh I think I know what you're getting at. You're suggesting that even though George isn't over torquing the EX30 (and him therefore thinking it's more powerful/faster) you're saying that in reality it might not actually be faster and you need empirical hard data to prove it.

I kinda get that, and in an ideal would that would be perfect. But I must admit I would have to agree with Georges feelings on this one. If he can regularly, and at will, over torque an EX20 but doesn't on an EX30 then that for me is valid enough data, and he has enough skill to be in a position to properly compare the power of two wheels (which was the subject of my original comments).

I maintain that most riders don't have this level of skill though (able to beep/over torque at will) and so aren't in a position to say one wheel is more powerful than another.

[JeremySPFF]

8 minutes ago, Planemo said:

empirical hard data

I'm saying, in fact, that empirical data is useless. Empirical data is not supported by peer reviewed evidence and is solely the observations of one rider without a system(like 0-30 time). I'm not trying to say the EX20 is faster than the EX30, I can assume the EX30 is faster, but I can't prove it.

 

Based on my empirical data, I have never seen an EUC outside of Florida, therefor no other EUC riders exist not in Florida. That's a silly statement right? That's the statement being made currently.

Edited March 22, 2023 by JeremySPFF
added example

[techyiam]

9 minutes ago, JeremySPFF said:

Why do we accept the marketing jargon of EUC companies and feelings of reviewers to determine which wheel we select? 134v means nothing unless tested. There is an easy and clear way to determine performance. I am going to attempt to compare the EX30 with the Sherman-S with stock tires, a neutral rider, and a set distance.

I think you are forgetting something.

Unlike cars and motorcycles, electric wheels don't have a throttle nor a brake pedal.

For example, if some rider can accelerate and brake an Abrams at rate more than meets my need. Does that mean I should be happy with the Abrams for this performance metric.

Certainly not for me. I am not buying a an Abrams for this rider. I am buying an Abrams for me (weight and size), my use case, my skill level, my style of riding, and my preference for pad setup.

For example, just because Kuji can accelerate quicker on a V13 than a Master, does that mean I can do the same.

Hence, the only way, I would know for sure is to actually ride one.

 

[Mono]

On 3/15/2023 at 2:51 AM, JeremySPFF said:

I don't understand the purpose of the higher volt wheels yet.

Technically there is no principle performance difference in the voltage ranges we are talking about. The US has 110V, Europe has 220V line voltage. There is virtually nothing a European device could do that an (respectively built) US American device could not. Voltage without knowing the motor specification is an entirely useless number other than for choosing the right charger.

Using a higher voltage with the same motor leads to more power and a higher free load speed and (possibly) a shorter life span.

Most decisively is IMHO that many customers demand higher voltage wheels, so the purpose is simply to have a larger number on the Volt-sticker to sell the wheel.

A break down of the meaning of voltage from an actual expert for small electric motors.

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Mono

[JeremySPFF]

9 minutes ago, techyiam said:

my use case

What if your use case is 'I want the fastest wheel?'. How do you go about determining what wheel that will be?

 

10 minutes ago, techyiam said:

For example, if some rider can accelerate and brake an Abrams at rate more than meets my need. Does that mean I should be happy with the Abrams for this performance metric.

No, thats why I am asking for data and not feelings.

 

11 minutes ago, techyiam said:

For example, just because Kuji can accelerate quicker on a V13 than a Master, does that mean I can do the same.

If Kuji rode both of the wheels, and timed himself on both, you would probably take that as a good test of performance, regardless if you can do it. I cannot push a corvette as fast as a professional driver, that doesn't mean the 1/4 mile time is useless to me.

 

12 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Unlike cars and motorcycles, electric wheels don't have a throttle nor a brake pedal.

The throttle and brake are handled differently, but those points are not relevant. Again, if I cant reach the pedals on a corvette because I am too short, I still know its faster than the mustang.

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, JeremySPFF said:

21 minutes ago, techyiam said:

For example, if some rider can accelerate and brake an Abrams at rate more than meets my need. Does that mean I should be happy with the Abrams for this performance metric.

No, thats why I am asking for data and not feelings

Assumed that it is timed data.

9 minutes ago, JeremySPFF said:

23 minutes ago, techyiam said:

For example, just because Kuji can accelerate quicker on a V13 than a Master, does that mean I can do the same.

If Kuji rode both of the wheels, and timed himself on both, you would probably take that as a good test of performance, regardless if you can do it. I cannot push a corvette as fast as a professional driver, that doesn't mean the 1/4 mile time is useless to me.

Kuji timed his acceleration tests.

I learnt my lesson on motorcycles. Professional riders can get incredible quarter mile's times for 600's. Some open class bikes are no where near as quick in the quarter. But while riding in the urban environment, especially in a group ride, the 600's are left behind for dead, totally gutless. Sure, on the freeway going well above the speed limit they would do well. But I would care less. Usable and accessible  power is way more fun for me.

20 minutes ago, JeremySPFF said:

34 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Unlike cars and motorcycles, electric wheels don't have a throttle nor a brake pedal.

The throttle and brake are handled differently, but those points are not relevant. Again, if I cant reach the pedals on a corvette because I am too short, I still know its faster than the mustang.

Totally relevant to me. I am not collecting cars. I want to enjoy driving them. If the cockpit ergo is unsuitable for me, why would I buy that car. Bottom line, accessible and usable power. If you buy electric wheels to collect, that's your prerogative. 

 

39 minutes ago, techyiam said:

  55 minutes ago, JeremySPFF said:

Why do we accept the marketing jargon of EUC companies and feelings of reviewers to determine which wheel we select? 134v means nothing unless tested. There is an easy and clear way to determine performance. I am going to attempt to compare the EX30 with the Sherman-S with stock tires, a neutral rider, and a set distance

To get back to your original post that I replied to, having timed data by a professional is not any more useful.

[bpong]

as with ALL social media postings,  especially posted videos,  consumers must be vigilant about so-called comparisons of any thing.

in this case, this euc comparison video (which there are dozens of on youtube) show flaws in its testing data as pointed out by the postings to this subject.  bottom line is that unless these 'comparison' videos are approached in a more clinical manner and the test subjects (in this case euc's) are exactly as they are equipped from the factory,  the use of these videos are for entertainment only and not for any factual knowledge.   there are other postings in this forum that follow this line of reasoning and those postings are useful and helpful.  most of the time,  i find these 'videos'  are posted for the same reason of how some people enjoy listening to the sound of their own voice,  rather than trying to present and pass on valuable information.

yawn....

[Bustapalapno]

2 hours ago, JeremySPFF said:

There is an easy and clear way to determine performance. I am going to attempt to compare the EX30 with the Sherman-S with stock tires, a neutral rider, and a set distance.

Again we get to the problem with measuring EUC performance. You can put a wheel on a dyno, angle it 3 degrees forward, and measure the output. You can free-spin a wheel. But that doesn't replicate wheel world conditions where a human is standing on the thing, wiggling back and forth on an uneven road surface. On the opposite end, as a human , your run-to-run variability is almost certainly greater than the difference between any two reals. Unless you did like, 20 runs with each wheel, your results won't be statistically significant. Even if you do 20 runs, you will get better each run, and the wheel will have less voltage each run.  This is one of my major complaints with the new Eevees format.

So for "emperical" measure of EUC performance, you either need an incredibly complex dyno-jig thing, or many many hours on wheels doing boring 0 to 40 tests over and over, changing between each run to a set voltage. Or some other thing I can't think of. And thus we revert back to measuring people's "feelings" as they review these wheels.

I've done the comparison you are talking about, with only a few runs on the very shitty street outside of Alien Rides. It might be more firmware than voltage, but difference between the EX30/Commander and the Sherman-S is immediately obvious. 

 

EDIT
While continuing my procrastination, I decided to do some basic statistics on the results of the Electric Dreams video at the head of this post. Just a little T-test to see if the times between wheels are significantly different from one another. For most of the comparisons, it passes the T-test with an alpha of 0.5. The exception being the EX30 and Sherman-S, which were too close to call. So I retract my previous statement around statistical significance of rider lap times.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Bustapalapno

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, bpong said:

unless these 'comparison' videos are approached in a more clinical manner and the test subjects (in this case euc's) are exactly as they are equipped from the factory,  the use of these videos are for entertainment only and not for any factual knowledge. 

Not entirely true.

Case in point, Madpack reviews on the V12 and the Abrams turned out to be useful, at least for me.

Prior to my electric wheel purchases, like most people, I scoured the Internet for reviews.

After purchasing and ownership, I discovered that many reviews didn't really help.

It just so happened, Madpack's reviews on the V12 and Abrams turned out to coincide with my own feelings about these two wheels.

At least for me, he was right on quite a few things.

Too bad he is no longer reviewing electric wheels. 

The worst are motorcycle and car reviews. 

For example, the Mazda CX-5. Super hyped by Car and Driver. Go test drive one, and it turned out to be no where near what it was purported to be.

Another example is the Yamaha MT-07. What a disappointment.

[bpong]

i stand corrected.  you are correct about the reviews for cars and motorcycles.... my favorite touring bike that i had for the longest time is a bmw R100RS ... it was not a performance bike and was not a top sport touring bike.  but it is a perfect sport touring bike in terms of user maintenance and daily riding and upkeep.  they would never point stuff out like that in todays modern performance reviews....only horsepower, track handling, top speed, etc,.....blah blah blah...  yes, there are the odd reviews that are helpful and factual...

[soulson]

Advertised figures that matter on their own:

1. Continuous power output in watts (of the whole system: batteries, controller, and motor)
2. Peak power output in watts IF the amount of time it can be sustained is specified in seconds, again for the whole system
3. Battery capacity in watt*hours
4. Efficiency of the whole system as a dimensionless ratio of watt*hours consumed to watt*hours delivered to pavement

Advertised figures that don't matter on their own:

1. System voltage
2. Peak power output if the amount of time sustained is NOT specified
3. Number of transistors in the controller
4. Current rating of xyz component
5. Motor power rating
6. Free spin speed

These figures can be useful, but only if you know other details about the wheel/rider/riding conditions.

[mrelwood]

 

4 hours ago, JeremySPFF said:

If I were to compare two cars, like a corvette and mustang, I could easily search and see the horsepower ratings, the 0-60 time

You keep bringing up the car comparison. The reason why you aren’t getting the answer you want, is that there really isn’t one. Several people are trying to point it out to you, but it send like you don’t believe us.

Measuring the acceleration of a car is easy. You peg in the throttle and wait for a few seconds, done.

 How would you suggest that the acceleration times of EUCs would be measured?

4 hours ago, JeremySPFF said:

There is an easy and clear way to determine performance.

“Performance” consists of several separate parameters. Some of them are not viable to be measured on self-balancing vehicles.

3 hours ago, JeremySPFF said:

What if your use case is 'I want the fastest wheel?'. How do you go about determining what wheel that will be?

On most wheels there is no set top speed, and the maximum speed you can ride at depends on the riders personal risk level. How do you measure something like that?

3 hours ago, JeremySPFF said:

The throttle and brake are handled differently, but those points are not relevant. Again, if I cant reach the pedals on a corvette because I am too short, I still know its faster than the mustang.

The points were as relevant as they can be. There is no acceleration pedal on an EUC. The wheel never tries it’s best to accelerate from 0 to 60 like a car does. The only thing an EUC ever does is to try and stay upright. The only way you can measure that is whether the wheel is successful in staying upright or not. But whether it can do it depends on so many factors that there really isn’t point in trying to measure that.

 Measuring EUC acceleration is quite similar to measuring acceleration on different bicycles. One rider can be fastest on a Scott, the other on a Raleigh. Same goes for sneakers, if you happen to want the fastest ones in the market.

Just one example: If you switch a 70kg rider to an 80kg rider, a car’s total weight increases about 0.6%. On an EUC it increases about 10%. Enough to make the wheels behave quite differently, and can switch the order of acceleration test results. And there are several similar factors, all of which can change the order of the results.

[sbb]

56 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Just one example: If you switch a 70kg rider to an 80kg rider, a car’s total weight increases about 0.6%. On an EUC it increases about 10%. Enough to make the wheels behave quite differently, and can switch the order of acceleration test results. And there are several similar factors, all of which can change the order of the results.

Heck, just air drag differences from people of the same weight, but different heights and safety gear shape. 

 

56 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The only way you can measure that is whether the wheel is successful in staying upright or not

I'd suggest a re-phrasing - "The only way you can measure that is to try to fall over forwards as hard as you possibly can, and the instant you succeed, back off by a single ounce."

For Jeremy, the above is the equivalent of standing on the throttle to go as fast as it can, as quickly as it can, because that is the ONLY circumstance when the wheel is putting out max power.  Anything more, you fall on your face. Anything less, you're not calling for max, which means you aren't experiencing it. 

As mrelwood keeps saying, the only thing the wheel can do is try to keep the pedals flat, against your deliberate attempt to fall on your face. And unless you run the two wheels at max lean with 0 headroom, all you'd be comparing is a "pedal dip" threshold in the firmware.

 

Jeremy, you'll find a ton of good info in this thread, below -  especially the 1st and last pages.

Cheers

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by sbb

[mrelwood]

14 hours ago, sbb said:

Heck, just air drag differences from people of the same weight, but different heights and safety gear shape. 

Good point!

14 hours ago, sbb said:

I'd suggest a re-phrasing - "The only way you can measure that is to try to fall over forwards as hard as you possibly can, and the instant you succeed, back off by a single ounce."

That would be a much more precise way of saying it, yes! 

14 hours ago, sbb said:

For Jeremy, the above is the equivalent of standing on the throttle to go as fast as it can, as quickly as it can, because that is the ONLY circumstance when the wheel is putting out max power.  Anything more, you fall on your face. Anything less, you're not calling for max, which means you aren't experiencing it.

Another example that might help is a car that has an ejecting seat triggered to the gas pedal. You get ejected if you press the pedal past a threshold that changes based on the current speed, amount of gas in the tank, ambient temperature, your weight, etc. NOW go measure the 0-60 acceleration on that car!

[The Brahan Seer]

If you have a 2kW motor that is 84V or a 2KW motor that is 134v is the torque and top speed the same (everything else being equal)?

What is the typical efficiency (in %) of  84, 100 and 134V motors?

 

[GoGeorgeGo]

9 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

If you have a 2kW motor that is 84V or a 2KW motor that is 134v is the torque and top speed the same (everything else being equal)?

What is the typical efficiency (in %) of  84, 100 and 134V motors?

 

if you have the exact same motor and you put 84v at 40a through one, and you put 134v at 40a through another, the 134v will spin way faster.

[Timwheel]

1 hour ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

if you have the exact same motor and you put 84v at 40a through one, and you put 134v at 40a through another, the 134v will spin way faster.

Amp has nothing to do with freespin speed. The only thing that matters is Voltage. A given motor has a certain constant Kv given by its construction (wiring, magnet size, number of poles etc...) , max speed is kv x V. That's it.

The master is just a suspended 134v RS HT. The freespin is (134/100) times higher.

High voltage enables manufacturer to use high torque motors, because their constructions typically means high back EMF as they have a lot of whorl and create high back EMF as magnets pass them.

If Begode was to create a 200v master, it would freespin at 167 km/h.

However, high voltage means more cells in series, and therefore higher resistance. For the same number of cells, a higher voltage means less cells in parallel, which means more burden on a given series of cells. There is probably a happy medium. With 50E cells, the master is flirting with the limits for very aggressive riders. If I remember correctly, they are 32s4p, and a 50E is happy to discharge at 10A continuously. That means about 5kw of power continuous. For short bursts, each row can see 15A without problem, meaning nearly 8kw available for short bursts. That is enough for most of us, but some extreme riders may see more current draw.

Therefore, the happy medium for 134v wheels might be either high discharge batteries with 4P or 5 to 6P. An EX30 could see some bursts to 12 kw without burdening the batteries that much.

Now you know why enormous 100v battery packs like the sherman's barely register any heat.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Timwheel

[JeremySPFF]

23 hours ago, techyiam said:

Totally relevant to me. I am not collecting cars. I want to enjoy driving them. If the cockpit ergo is unsuitable for me, why would I buy that car. Bottom line, accessible and usable power. If you buy electric wheels to collect, that's your prerogative. 

Exactly. If you are looking for xy and z, that's great for you. I am looking for more information to help me make an educated purchase.

 

23 hours ago, techyiam said:

To get back to your original post that I replied to, having timed data by a professional is not any more useful.

Again, it's relevant to me and most likely a lot of other riders, that's the point of the post and the data I am looking for. If you don't need it, that's great, but why are you trying to convince me that I don't need it?