What’s the point of higher voltage? (Split from “Sherman-S 3600wh: 100V, 20", suspension, 97lb”)

[JeremySPFF]

I don't understand the purpose of the higher volt wheels yet. Why are the track times so similar between the EX30 and Sherman-S when there is a ~34v difference? It's also a smaller motor at 3000W(ss) vs. 4000W(EX30).

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by JeremySPFF

[Clem604]

46 minutes ago, JeremySPFF said:

I don't understand the purpose of the higher volt wheels yet. Why are the track times so similar between the EX30 and Sherman-S when there is a ~34v difference? It's also a smaller motor at 3000W(ss) vs. 4000W(EX30).

It was suspected that the Shinko 244 tire Jack has on the SS had more grip than the stock CST 186 on the EX30. I suppose Jack should've conducted the test with the factory tire on each wheel or switch them all out to the same tire (not practical). Either way I don't think you could go wrong, the EX30 is shaping up to be a good wheel.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Clem604

[CrabChampion]

48 minutes ago, JeremySPFF said:

I don't understand the purpose of the higher volt wheels yet. Why are the track times so similar between the EX30 and Sherman-S when there is a ~34v difference? It's also a smaller motor at 3000W(ss) vs. 4000W(EX30).

 

This video is biased. The sherman-s is the only wheel there with an aftermarket tire. On the track where high speed cornering is critical, its not a surprise that he closed the gap cornering on the wheel with the most comfortable tire. The EX30 obviously performed better on straights, but I bet if the master or EX30 had an aftermarket tire, that gap would widen again. There is a reason why its the performance begode wheels taking the top spot at races like AVS. There is also a reason why almost nobody races on a stock tire at the professional level. Jack is not a top rider either. I dont think this comparison is quite fair

Edited March 15, 2023 by Cobaltsaber

[Bustapalapno]

3 hours ago, JeremySPFF said:

I don't understand the purpose of the higher volt wheels yet. Why are the track times so similar between the EX30 and Sherman-S when there is a ~34v difference? It's also a smaller motor at 3000W(ss) vs. 4000W(EX30).

 

Have you ever ridden them side by side? If you come off a light and accelerate to 25 or 30mph the difference between a Begode Hero (100v) and a Begode Master (134v) is obvious. Even a S22 feels noticeably more powerful than a 100v wheel. 
 

100V wheels are still great! I bought a Sherman-S for many reasons not related to speed and acceleration. But if a manufacturer is shooting for the performance crown, it is tough to achieve with 100v. 
 

Street riding an Sherman-S, EX30, and a Commander Pro side by side, it is absolutely obvious the Sherman-S lags behind. Doesn’t make it a bad wheel, just a slightly slower one. 

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, Bustapalapno said:

it is absolutely obvious the Sherman-S lags behind. Doesn’t make it a bad wheel, just a slightly slower one

Let’s say zero to 30 mph, about how many car lengths will the Sherman-S be lagging behind?

[KiwiMark]

The Sherman S only lags behind when you are riding with others on faster wheels that are pushing those wheels, not everyone rides in that kind of situation. If you are on a group ride with a mixture of EUCs or even a mixture of different types of PEVs then it would be really unlikely that the Sherman S would be the slow vehicle that everyone else has to wait for. Where I live any group ride going will have many slower vehicles than the Sherman S and in fact the Sherman S will be one of the fastest vehicles on the ride.

Also - solo riding I have NEVER been overtaken by any other PEV. I overtake others all the time though, mainly bicycles - those things are pretty slow compared to my Sherman S. Some of those bicycles are e-bikes, but they are still really slow compared to me on my Sherman S. For me it is a very rare thing to find someone else riding something that is faster than what I'm riding, this is a big part of why I care so little about having more performance than what my Sherman S gives me - it is already one of the fastest micro-mobility vehicles around, with only a small handful of other micro-mobility vehicles that out perform it and it is very rare to come across one of those where I live.

But even if you buy an EX30, that would not mean you are riding the fastest PEV, there are several scooters that can beat you for speed & acceleration. It is way easier to just not care if there might be a faster vehicle and just enjoy riding something like the Sherman S which is plenty fast enough for any sane rider.

[Bustapalapno]

9 hours ago, KiwiMark said:

The Sherman S only lags behind when you are riding with others on faster wheels that are pushing those wheels, not everyone rides in that kind of situation.

I meant lagging behind in terms of status in the industry, not in terms of racing or group rides. I should have been more clear. You are totally right that the Sherman-S is not going to get left behind at most group rides. Even in my city's "speed demon" group there is a v11 that catches up at the rally points. No one is going to feel left behind on a Sherman-S except for at organized races where the Master is probably still king.
 

 

10 hours ago, techyiam said:

Let’s say zero to 30 mph, about how many car lengths will the Sherman-S be lagging behind?

Rider skill, even for a simple drag race, is a huge factor in trying to do these comparisons. From the rides I've done so far, I couldn't say definitively how far behind the Sherman-S would be. Honestly I think a lot of it is firmware related. The Sherman-S feels controlled and balanced when it lays down power. It puts it down very "linearly." Begode wheels just dump out torque as fast as they can. Even older Begode 100v wheels feel like they have more pep off the line than the Sherman-S, but then obviously can't sustain the insanity into the higher speeds.

[MrMonoWheel]

How tf are you guys leaning so hard that you can tell a Sherman S doesn't have the same power as a 134v wheel? Like EUCs work by balancing out whatever for you put into them, which means you would have to be right on the edge of overpowering the Sherman S to feel the difference with the higher power wheels, no?

So far I've never even heard my wheel beep from the riding I do. However the other day I finally got to try a V13, and I must say it's a powerful wheel, but acceleration wise I was still limited by my own skill level. 

Side note, now that I have had time on a V13 I can undoubtedly say I am extremely happy with my choice of Sherman S. There's no comparison, it's more compact, easier to maneuver, significantly smoother running, and just feels solid. The v13 build quality was nice but the wheel overall felt like a step back compared to the magnesium alloy Sherman S with proper fork style suspension.

[Planemo]

23 minutes ago, MrMonoWheel said:

How tf are you guys leaning so hard that you can tell a Sherman S doesn't have the same power as a 134v wheel?

Very true. Theres an awful lot of people stating that X wheel is less powerful than Y wheel even though they have never overlent (or even beeped) X wheel.

[Bustapalapno]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

Very true. Theres an awful lot of people stating that X wheel is less powerful than Y wheel even though they have never overlent (or even beeped) X wheel.

I can only speak for my own experience. I've beeped the Sherman-S but not tried to on the 134V wheels. I don't need to beep the wheel to feel the improved performance. The difference is apparent across the torque curve, it is readily apparent as soon as you take it on the open road. 

[Rawnei]

2 hours ago, MrMonoWheel said:

How tf are you guys leaning so hard that you can tell a Sherman S doesn't have the same power as a 134v wheel? Like EUCs work by balancing out whatever for you put into them, which means you would have to be right on the edge of overpowering the Sherman S to feel the difference with the higher power wheels, no?

So far I've never even heard my wheel beep from the riding I do. However the other day I finally got to try a V13, and I must say it's a powerful wheel, but acceleration wise I was still limited by my own skill level. 

Side note, now that I have had time on a V13 I can undoubtedly say I am extremely happy with my choice of Sherman S. There's no comparison, it's more compact, easier to maneuver, significantly smoother running, and just feels solid. The v13 build quality was nice but the wheel overall felt like a step back compared to the magnesium alloy Sherman S with proper fork style suspension.

At low speeds it's possible, I've seen @supercurio easily overpower a lot of wheels at low speed, seems like a nice but subjective way of testing torque at low speeds.

We also have another local rider here Simon who can easily overpower any wheel it feels like.

I could probably too but I don't have it in me.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Rawnei

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, Bustapalapno said:

I can only speak for my own experience. I've beeped the Sherman-S

Thats cool, if you've beeped the wheel you've beeped it. I will exclude very slow stuff though as thats not what I'm talking about, nor are most people who are saying X is 'less powerful' than Y.

1 hour ago, Bustapalapno said:

I don't need to beep the wheel to feel the improved performance. The difference is apparent across the torque curve

But if you're not beeping the wheel you're not accessing full power. So yes you do need to be reaching beeps (regularly at various speeds) to say, with any authority, that X wheel is less powerful than Y. If you're not beeping theres more torque available in the wheel and you're simply not accessing it.

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

At low speeds it's possible, I've seen @supercurio easily overpower a lot of wheels at low speed, seems like a nice but subjective way of testing torque at low speeds.

We also have another local rider here Simon who can easily overpower any wheel it feels like.

I could probably too but I don't have it in me.

I agree, there are some skilled riders who can bring a wheel pretty much to the point of overlean at all speeds and virtually hold it there. If they can, they are indeed qualified to say they have reached the max the wheel can give and therefore can, with authority, compare it to another wheel. But many riders can't and don't ride on the knife edge.

[Bustapalapno]

56 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I agree, there are some skilled riders who can bring a wheel pretty much to the point of overlean at all speeds and virtually hold it there. If they can, they are indeed qualified to say they have reached the max the wheel can give and therefore can, with authority, compare it to another wheel. But many riders can't and don't ride on the knife edge.

If you took a Toyota Prius, and floored it from 0 to 30, and then did the same with a Ford Mustang, could you tell the difference? I think you could, even if you didn't take both to a racing track or a drag strip. Additional power affects the riding experience at all speeds. Just because you never take your Ford Mustang to a drag strip and hit 150 mph, doesn't mean that you can't enjoy the extra power when you are taking an on ramp to the highway. 

The only way to objectively compare wheels "with authority" is to put them on a dyno and measure the power output of the motor on a chart. But I think it is also valid to say that riders can subjectively feel the difference in power from one wheel to another. That subjective feeling exists at all speeds and all conditions. I can't tell you which wheel has more power at 80% PWM sustained over 2 minutes, I haven't ridden them that way. I can tell you which is faster accelerating 0 to 40 from a standing start. 

If you ride slow and don't accelerate hard, that's fine, you don't care about additional power. Awesome! Even if you ride relatively fast and do accelerate hard, you may not personally place value on having more power than you already have. In fact, that is where I sit. But I can still tell the difference.

[InfiniteWheelie]

@Planemo is right. If you're not overpowering the wheel or hearing beeps, you can't say one wheel is more powerful than another. However one may be easier to accelerate which is probably what @Bustapalapno is getting at. That can be due to the pad setup, size, weight, pedal height, center of gravity etc. This could make it "feel more powerful".

At the end of the day all wheels give you exactly what you ask from them, nothing more or less (otherwise they wouldn't stay balanced). If you hit the point where it warns you you're running out of power, that's the only time you know it's lacking power.

Edited March 15, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie

[CrabChampion]

6 hours ago, MrMonoWheel said:

How tf are you guys leaning so hard that you can tell a Sherman S doesn't have the same power as a 134v wheel? Like EUCs work by balancing out whatever for you put into them, which means you would have to be right on the edge of overpowering the Sherman S to feel the difference with the higher power wheels, no?

You dont need to torque the hell outta a wheel to 80% pwm beeps to feel that it is more powerful. Having more power in those 134v wheels will give you a higher powerband which you can definitely feel. You get more acceleration and "zip" for the same amount of lean. The wheel accelerates faster to get back under you in a shorter amount of time. Alot of the low end torque you feel can also come down to how the firmware is programmed and what the wheel does with that power, but I am just generally speaking. You can program a less powerful wheel to feel zippier than something with more power, but that feeling will be broken once you reach higher speeds where the actual power utilized is being drawn.

[Bustapalapno]

41 minutes ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

At the end of the day all wheels give you exactly what you ask from them, nothing more or less (otherwise they wouldn't stay balanced). If you hit the point where it warns you you're running out of power, that's the only time you know it's lacking power.

By that logic, an Mten4 is just as powerful as a Master Pro until it beeps, which I hope we can agree is obviously not true. Logically what you are saying makes sense if the motor is connected to continuous power source, with a perfectly steady force being applied to it. But we don't ride plugged into the wall or with perfect precision. Firmware, battery config, battery chemistry, voltage, amperage limits all play into how fast a wheel can actually accelerate with a human operator. I'm not trying to make an argument about motor specifications. I am trying to articulate how it feels to ride these different wheels side by side. 

[Planemo]

17 hours ago, Bustapalapno said:

If you took a Toyota Prius, and floored it from 0 to 30, and then did the same with a Ford Mustang, could you tell the difference?

Absolutely. But a self-balancing vehicle behaves nothing like a car.

17 hours ago, Bustapalapno said:

The only way to objectively compare wheels "with authority" is to put them on a dyno and measure the power output of the motor on a chart.

Totally agree, I love dynos, having spent many years working with them. And your 134v wheel would smash the 84v wheel in terms of max power. But again, if you're not reaching beeps you're not seeing what the max power actually is on either wheel.

17 hours ago, Bustapalapno said:

But I think it is also valid to say that riders can subjectively feel the difference in power from one wheel to another.

No they can't. They might feel that one wheel has power that is easier to access (which is usually smaller diameter wheels) but unless they are riding beeps they aren't maxing anything. Pedal height relative to the axle also plays a part in how easy it is to access power but again thats nothing to do with the peak power thats actually available.

17 hours ago, Bustapalapno said:

If you ride slow and don't accelerate hard, that's fine, you don't care about additional power. Awesome! Even if you ride relatively fast and do accelerate hard, you may not personally place value on having more power than you already have. In fact, that is where I sit. But I can still tell the difference.

I think that the more power available on EUC's the better, for safety reasons. I have zero problem with high voltage wheels. My point is that if you are running an OG Sherman and only ever hit 60% PWM/no beeps then you really don't need a 134v wheel (at least not for power headroom) and you certainly can't claim that a 134v version of the same wheel feels more powerful. The 134v wheel will certainly be capable of more power but if you're not accessing it then you wouldn't know.

16 hours ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

@Planemo is right. If you're not overpowering the wheel or hearing beeps, you can't say one wheel is more powerful than another. However one may be easier to accelerate which is probably what @Bustapalapno is getting at. That can be due to the pad setup, size, weight, pedal height, center of gravity etc. This could make it "feel more powerful".

I initially thought he might be getting at a particular wheel being easier to accelerate as well, but I don't think so.

16 hours ago, Cobaltsaber said:

You get more acceleration and "zip" for the same amount of lean. The wheel accelerates faster to get back under you in a shorter amount of time.

I'm pretty confident that you are describing the feel of a wheel, not it's power. It's exactly why an Mten feels very different to a Monster. In fact, an Mten will feel a lot quicker to accelerate off the spot given the same amount of lean which kind of blows the argument that you and Bustapalapno are making.

16 hours ago, Bustapalapno said:

By that logic, an Mten4 is just as powerful as a Master Pro until it beeps

It is. If both wheels are maintaining balance then they are (roughly) using the same amount of power to move a given mass (you). I'll give you an example - lets say we have a rider who knows absolutely nothing about wheels but just happens to be a competant EUC rider. He rides an Mten and a Monster (well within their max speed abilities). He doesn't beep or overlean either wheel. Are you saying that he can claim the Monster is more powerful? In fact I would argue he feels the Mten is 'zippier', as I alluded to above.

16 hours ago, Bustapalapno said:

Logically what you are saying makes sense if the motor is connected to continuous power source

Logically, what I am saying is that a wheel only ever cares about remaining level. The amount/method of lean applied by the rider can differ for sure but the crucial point is that some wheels need more than others and even more crucially, this should not be confused with one wheel feeling 'more powerful' than another'. A 22" wheel needs a lot of effort to wring the best out of it, an Mten, hardly anything.

Happy to discuss further, definately best if a mod can split this off though. And definately need @mrelwoodwho can probably articulate this better than I can

 

[JeremySPFF]

What I was asking is if anyone has any data like the video I posted. I get that the begode wheels 'feel' faster, but are they? I understand the video isn't perfect, but where are the other videos I can look at? Does anyone have an actual 0-30 time performed by similar wheels and riders?

 

Also, a prius is really fast off the line, and would probably take the mustang 0-30 until it switched over from batteries to motor. It has more initial torque and less weight than the mustang. This is the reason I cant rely on 'feelings' and need actual data.

[eucVibes]

2 minutes ago, JeremySPFF said:

What I was asking is if anyone has any data like the video I posted. I get that the begode wheels 'feel' faster, but are they? I understand the video isn't perfect, but where are the other videos I can look at? Does anyone have an actual 0-30 time performed by similar wheels and riders?

 

Also, a prius is really fast off the line, and would probably take the mustang 0-30 until it switched over from batteries to motor. It has more initial torque and less weight than the mustang. This is the reason I cant rely on 'feelings' and need actual data.

I don't have data but the other night I was riding with ash on his sherman S I'm on my master pro and he went full send in cut out tunnel nyc was around 50 and I was trailing behind him beeping lol He's more brave than I am, the sherman s is fast af

[JeremySPFF]

8 minutes ago, eucVibes said:

the sherman s is fast af

True, but the EX30 and all the others are fast too. How can we find out who is actually king of the mountain and not rider or tire differences. 0-30? 0-45? Or maybe 0-max speed. So many reviewers are like 'x wheel feels faster to me'. We need two with the same tire, same rider, same conditions and multiple runs.

[mrelwood]

 

On 3/15/2023 at 6:01 PM, Bustapalapno said:

Even older Begode 100v wheels feel like they have more pep off the line than the Sherman-S

So you agree that two 100V wheels can have a difference in how powerful they feel, even if they had the same max power?

On 3/15/2023 at 9:51 PM, Bustapalapno said:

I don't need to beep the wheel to feel the improved performance. The difference is apparent across the torque curve, it is readily apparent as soon as you take it on the open road. 

That can’t be true. Here’s how maximum power works:

 You have two identical stereo systems, but the other has a much more powerful amplifier so it can play music much louder. Can you tell which is which if you set the volume to a comfortable listening level?

No you can’t. Because until reaching the limits of the device, you can’t tell how much power there is in reserve. You never say that “this stereo system sounds like there’s a lot more power available across the volume curve”, because that simply can’t be true.

 If you only press the gas pedal of a car halfway, you can’t tell how fast it would accelerate at full power. Some cars react to even the slightest gas pedal movement, some are very soft at first. For example, a base level Toyota Verso I once tried was exhausting to drive, because the gas pedal was overly sensitive at the beginning of the pedal range. But an Audi TT S was very comfortable and accelerated very calmly. Yet the TT had almost three times the max power of the Toyota. You just needed to push the pedal further to reach the peak power.

The gas pedal behavior, just like the acceleration (balancing) behavior of a wheel are just design decisions.

On 3/16/2023 at 12:19 AM, Bustapalapno said:

If you took a Toyota Prius, and floored it from 0 to 30, and then did the same with a Ford Mustang, could you tell the difference?

Of course you can compare the peak power because you reached the peak power on both cars. But until you reach the peak, you don’t know where it is.

On 3/16/2023 at 12:19 AM, Bustapalapno said:

Additional power affects the riding experience at all speeds.

…

That subjective feeling exists at all speeds and all conditions.

The differences we’re talking about are in the maximum peak power. Sure you can reach the max power at all speeds, but not at all levels of acceleration. If you do a medium acceleration on two wheels and you’ll only consume max 2000W of power on both wheels, you can’t tell which one has more peak power. Sure, the other may feel more powerful, but that doesn’t mean that it actually has more peak power available.

 

On 3/16/2023 at 1:33 AM, Cobaltsaber said:

You dont need to torque the hell outta a wheel to 80% pwm beeps to feel that it is more powerful. Having more power in those 134v wheels will give you a higher powerband which you can definitely feel. You get more acceleration and "zip" for the same amount of lean.

That simply can’t be correct. The way the wheels feel at medium acceleration depends solely on the firmware behavior, which the maximum peak power doesn’t affect at all. I get that Begodes may feel more powerful to some because they first dip the pedals a bit and then overcorrect the dip, but that’s the house feel of Begode. It’s not related to the operating voltage or the peak power.

On 3/16/2023 at 1:33 AM, Cobaltsaber said:

You can program a less powerful wheel to feel zippier than something with more power, but that feeling will be broken once you reach higher speeds where the actual power utilized is being drawn.

And that was exactly my point! But you are contradicting yourself here. If a less powerful wheel can be programmed to feel zippier, how can you tell if it’s more powerful or not unless you push it to it’s power limits?

 

On 3/16/2023 at 1:34 AM, Bustapalapno said:

By that logic, an Mten4 is just as powerful as a Master Pro until it beeps, which I hope we can agree is obviously not true.

It actually is true. If you accelerate lightly and only use 500W of power on each wheel, they are exactly as powerful as the other. The Master Pro would accelerate much slower though because of the larger tire and heavier weight.

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by mrelwood

[Bustapalapno]

@mrelwoodI think you've caught me in my own confusion here as I've tried to make different points to different people. I agree with everything you are saying as individual points. I think I did at the beginning, but it's also possible you convinced me and I just didn't realize.

The point I was trying to make was less about technical discussions about wheel power in an objective sense, but more of a subjective comparison of different wheels in the real world. I don't know if it is tire size, motor design, voltage, battery setup, firmware, mainboard design. But the 134v Begode wheels, in my experience, feel more powerful than their 100v Begode and 100v Veteran counterparts. To me, that experience is more important than if I will win a drag race, or which wheel has a higher number spec sheet. And that is the perspective I was trying to share originally. 

[Planemo]

12 hours ago, Bustapalapno said:

@mrelwoodI think you've caught me in my own confusion here as I've tried to make different points to different people.

Glad we got you there in the end though

12 hours ago, Bustapalapno said:

But the 134v Begode wheels, in my experience, feel more powerful than their 100v Begode and 100v Veteran counterparts.

And that can be true. Whats important is to not cloud any decision making by stating that it's because of an increase in voltage

 

[Bizra6ot]

On 3/15/2023 at 6:20 PM, MrMonoWheel said:

How tf are you guys leaning so hard that you can tell a Sherman S doesn't have the same power as a 134v wheel? Like EUCs work by balancing out whatever for you put into them, which means you would have to be right on the edge of overpowering the Sherman S to feel the difference with the higher power wheels, no?

So far I've never even heard my wheel beep from the riding I do. However the other day I finally got to try a V13, and I must say it's a powerful wheel, but acceleration wise I was still limited by my own skill level. 

Side note, now that I have had time on a V13 I can undoubtedly say I am extremely happy with my choice of Sherman S. There's no comparison, it's more compact, easier to maneuver, significantly smoother running, and just feels solid. The v13 build quality was nice but the wheel overall felt like a step back compared to the magnesium alloy Sherman S with proper fork style suspension.

I find it harder not to cut a wheel than the other way around when trying to reach the acceleration limit, you have to control it unlike just going full lean without brain

If throwing yourself like superman as Kuji do is blocking you, you can set your pads to have a contact between the bottom of the pad and your heel which adds a leverage point it allows you to get as much power while gaining a better center of gravity and a bend in your knees that allows you to recover by being reactive when you over torque it, maybe this method will give you more confidence