Enough is Enough

[Sumako]

If Inmotion would have committed to 70mph wheel they would have had my money.  But they didn’t. We are stuck with settling for another wheel that might tap 60mph…again. 

I believe if a wheel is going to ask for $4000+ and weight as much as an Ebike then we should be getting top performances that warrant that kind of weight and pricing. EUC’s have always beat out Ebikes on price to performance ratio. EUC’s should remain this way. If that means we dont get the 70 or 100mph wheel then so be it. Eventually physics is gonna become a reality when trying to fly down a highway on a suitcase at 100mph+ Obviously it has not happened at 70mph. But there will be a speed where standing on a turbo powered luggage is not realistic.

There are other things EUC’s could be focusing on as far as advancements. One such idea would be to make an EUC the is self balancing on  ALL sides; front back side to side. Not only will this make it easier for new people to learn but also be really helpful for going at high speeds and avoid speed wobbles. That 3 cents or paragraphs on the subject.  

[Guest]

On 10/13/2022 at 5:32 PM, Funky said:

What speed/weight/range would your ideal wheel be? And how much $$$ would it cost?

My ideal wheel: 40mph(65kph) ~55lbs(~25kg) 50miles(80km)

Price 2000 euros.

All these numbers are for many frenchies they looking for. The most user profile in this country. I think the brands can survive with wheels like that. Why more miles and kilometers ? We've seen bigger wheel, sheaper product, and high speed, but, two or three riders, Then maxi-super-monsters are not the success in 2022.

[daniel1234]

I would love to see a wheel capable of traveling 30 k km without investment, so I can call this hobby "transportation" ! So far EUC seems like an engineering projects of students....

[Drunkard]

Hey! I'm new to the EUC world, got my first wheel this spring and would love to share my opinion on this topic. 

It is super clear to see that EUC manufacturers are more interested in the top end market and high margins.. All the new wheels coming out are aimed for the high performance, long range and end up being big and heavy and not practical for cities and actual commuting. I'm not saying those are bad wheels or they are wrong for being big heavy and fast. No. Clearly the there is a lot of EUC riders that wants them for good reason and those riders will be super happy taking the new big wheels out on awesome rides

 

Problem is that the market for the lower performance wheels is neglected. I ask you what are the option for new rider? Before you answer this the second question is what is appropriate price for a beginner wheel/light commuter wheel? 

When picking out a wheel this spring I was looking online and comparing and picking out a wheel that can still be fun after learning how to ride and does not cost 2k. Not everyone can afford paying 2-3k to get in to the hobby. I decided that KS16s sounds like a good bet for a first wheel. Online pricing indicates it should be around 1.2k. Tried finding it for sale - NOPE. None of the retailers around had it. Same with 16x. can't find it anywhere. Ended up speaking to a retailer that recommended me a V10F and gave a bit of a discount on it too. Reason you can't buy any of the wheels is that they are old. No one stocks them up because no one wants to buy them. This is an actual issue that is preventing more people to get these amazing tools. all new models cost too much. Old models are not attractive because they are not properly updated. Every time the new big expensive wheel comes out the price of entry is going up and up and up. 4.5k wheels? seriously? I have no idea how people are so happy to pay these prices and pretend that everything is ok with this  

 

What market is missing right now is modern light weight wheel. Something that is decently water resistant. No one should be expecting to submerge the wheel in water but riding in light rain should not be of any concern. It should not burn a bord just because my 90kg ass tried to get up a hill. Small simple suspension that would help with bad roads, nothing designed for jumping down the rocks... I don't care if heavy wheel riders look at me all smug and call me a sidewalk crawler   This a wheel that the market is missing. Something that have the speed and power that is good enough for the city bike paths. Not something that 'you can keep up with cars with' . Oh you want something that is not 4-5 years design? Well we have v12 that is 2.7k euro... seriously where is the reliable sidewalk crawler i can recommend for 1.2k?   What is the wheel I buy if I want a chill ride with family members in a park? What is the good wheel for 14year old kids? 

 

Sadly currently EUC makers are making the wheels for veteran riders who are whiling to splash out 4-5k on a next step and not the wheels that would be good for a new riders. And not only new riders. Don't forget that not everyone lives in USA and have a garage. Putting my V10F and a V11 to the trunk of my hatchback is not easy. Bringing them up to the flat on the 3rd floor is not easy. If you are a student and you need a commuter to shops and university 3-5 miles away, do you need a a 50mile range wheel? Where are NEW proper options for this.

 

And please don't even mention Mten4. Mten4 cost over 1k and is not even a wheel for commuting. It's a toy designed to attract with it's cute looks and small size. Sadly small size translates to bad ride feeling and poor safety (Just in case anyone asks, I did try it out myself recently). 

 

 

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Drunkard said:

Hey! I'm new to the EUC world, got my first wheel this spring and would love to share my opinion on this topic. 

It is super clear to see that EUC manufacturers are more interested in the top end market and high margins.. All the new wheels coming out are aimed for the high performance, long range and end up being big and heavy and not practical for cities and actual commuting. I'm not saying those are bad wheels or they are wrong for being big heavy and fast. No. Clearly the there is a lot of EUC riders that wants them for good reason and those riders will be super happy taking the new big wheels out on awesome rides

 

Problem is that the market for the lower performance wheels is neglected. I ask you what are the option for new rider? Before you answer this the second question is what is appropriate price for a beginner wheel/light commuter wheel? 

When picking out a wheel this spring I was looking online and comparing and picking out a wheel that can still be fun after learning how to ride and does not cost 2k. Not everyone can afford paying 2-3k to get in to the hobby. I decided that KS16s sounds like a good bet for a first wheel. Online pricing indicates it should be around 1.2k. Tried finding it for sale - NOPE. None of the retailers around had it. Same with 16x. can't find it anywhere. Ended up speaking to a retailer that recommended me a V10F and gave a bit of a discount on it too. Reason you can't buy any of the wheels is that they are old. No one stocks them up because no one wants to buy them. This is an actual issue that is preventing more people to get these amazing tools. all new models cost too much. Old models are not attractive because they are not properly updated. Every time the new big expensive wheel comes out the price of entry is going up and up and up. 4.5k wheels? seriously? I have no idea how people are so happy to pay these prices and pretend that everything is ok with this  

 

What market is missing right now is modern light weight wheel. Something that is decently water resistant. No one should be expecting to submerge the wheel in water but riding in light rain should not be of any concern. It should not burn a bord just because my 90kg ass tried to get up a hill. Small simple suspension that would help with bad roads, nothing designed for jumping down the rocks... I don't care if heavy wheel riders look at me all smug and call me a sidewalk crawler   This a wheel that the market is missing. Something that have the speed and power that is good enough for the city bike paths. Not something that 'you can keep up with cars with' . Oh you want something that is not 4-5 years design? Well we have v12 that is 2.7k euro... seriously where is the reliable sidewalk crawler i can recommend for 1.2k?   What is the wheel I buy if I want a chill ride with family members in a park? What is the good wheel for 14year old kids? 

 

Sadly currently EUC makers are making the wheels for veteran riders who are whiling to splash out 4-5k on a next step and not the wheels that would be good for a new riders. And not only new riders. Don't forget that not everyone lives in USA and have a garage. Putting my V10F and a V11 to the trunk of my hatchback is not easy. Bringing them up to the flat on the 3rd floor is not easy. If you are a student and you need a commuter to shops and university 3-5 miles away, do you need a a 50mile range wheel? Where are NEW proper options for this.

 

And please don't even mention Mten4. Mten4 cost over 1k and is not even a wheel for commuting. It's a toy designed to attract with it's cute looks and small size. Sadly small size translates to bad ride feeling and poor safety (Just in case anyone asks, I did try it out myself recently). 

 

 

Well said!

We need NEW light wheels, that can do at least 30mph! And aren't more heavy than 55 lbs. KS16s is perfect. But it's also pretty old. And having real 16x3" tire would be better.

I think they can make something "better" in 40-45 lbs. Top speed 30/35mph and ~1000Wh battery or so. It isn't hard.

 

Manufactures simply don't want to make small/light wheels - because both wheels need the same parts. If you can simply make something bigger with more performance: speed/range. Selling something "bigger" for more $money$ is more profitable to the manufacturers, than selling something "smaller" that is ~2x cheaper..

Big wheel = big money for manufacturers $$$

Small wheel = less money for manufacturers $

And that's why there is no new lightweight wheels. But selling 2/3x more lightweight would = same as selling one bigger wheel. (At least i think that..) Also by making more lightweight wheels, they would get a lot more customers. Because "new" ridders most times want something cheaper to start the hobby.

[jimjam.nyc]

I also think part of the issue is asking this question on this forum. The audience here is a bit more enthusiastic than your normal mass market user.  Also alot of mass market commuters are going towards scooters and stuff that is easy to ride.. The learning curve alone for EUC almost weeds out much of the smaller/lighter wheel market. So it is no surprise the manufacturers are focusing alot on the higher end, heavier wheels.

I dont agree with the "market has spoken"  The market has barely matured so its hard to say the market has spoken.. The makers of these wheels are just taking advantage of the people willing to constantly drop another 3-4k on the next weel a month after they just bought the last POS they released. Cant blame them for selling what people want, weather they know it or not. They are also getting free advertisement from influencers willing to say just about anything in order to get their hands on the newest model as well. 

I think the closest things we can get to the perfect all rounder and still transportable are the 16inch wheels. 16x, Nik+, and v12. All the manufacturers minus leaper kim have a contender in this range.. So even if you are a fanboy/girl you can get your favorite death trap to ride on! ;-)

Its a shame Kingsong took the opportunity to update the 16x and 18xl and only made cosmetic changes.. 

Edit: Just realized I didn't put my ideal wheel specs in. Right now I am really liking the v12s size, weight (slightly heavier than i like) , and specs. I do get some FOMO with not having suspension, but every time I look at the new suspension wheels I just feel they go way over what I am willing to deal with.

Edited October 17, 2022 by jimjam.nyc

[samzed]

I think there is definitely a market for euc dealers who function like the bike shops. They could charge a fair dealer fee for testing out the wheels and fixing the problems before they sell the wheel.

[mrelwood]

On 10/13/2022 at 6:38 PM, MrEUCMan said:

My ideal wheel: 100mph, 5 lbs, Solar powered / infinite miles.

I don't know where you live, but around here the word "realistic" means something very different...

 

On 10/15/2022 at 4:59 PM, GoGeorgeGo said:

my one wheeled motorcycle and your last mile commuter device are not the same machine.

And that's exactly why manufacturers should develop wheels in other size/weight groups as well, not just "max everything, at any weight".

On 10/15/2022 at 4:59 PM, GoGeorgeGo said:

the market has clearly spoken

Like a few others, I strongly disagree with this. The manufacturers are currently in a competition frenzy, and they try to beat each other in speed, wattage, and battery. Other features and properties have been mostly ignored lately. Btw, do any of the companies seem to you like they were interested in Western market research in the slightest? To me they don't.

The V8 being the most sold model speaks loudly.

On 10/15/2022 at 4:59 PM, GoGeorgeGo said:

sidewalk crawling toys are not as popular as trail blazing road warriors.

I'm pretty sure @Funky wasn't taking about S2 class EUCs, but more about the 16S to 18XL classes. They are definitely less of a toy than the latest warrior Begodes that barely even survive the shipping to the customer. And even if they do, they need to be inspected and repaired before the first ride.

On 10/15/2022 at 4:59 PM, GoGeorgeGo said:

give it another 3 or 4 years and suddenly manufacturers wont be able to get away with sub par build quality.

We said the exact same thing 3-4 years ago, but the quality has definitely gotten worse.

On 10/15/2022 at 6:37 PM, GoGeorgeGo said:

thats what your not understanding. the market has spoken. street wheels sell, little wheels don't.

No, you're missing the fact that new wheels sell, old ones don't. T4 seem to be doing pretty well, doesn't it?

On 10/15/2022 at 6:37 PM, GoGeorgeGo said:

if sidewalk crawlers sold, they would be making them.

16S, V8S, MCM5v2, V10F etc are all being made all the time. And they are being sold here and there, all the time. Surely not as much in the enthusiast shops that we tend to know and follow, but the only ones that beginners know about. The large convenience store that sells EUCs in Finland doesn't carry Shermans...

 

On 10/16/2022 at 3:14 AM, ElectronxCycles said:

We wonder why wheels like the v11 cut out going over a little speed bump, rims breaking and axles made of cast iron shattering just by jumping off little cubs...

You probably meant to type "V12". Although others than the first issue you mentioned don't concern either of them.

 

23 hours ago, Sumako said:

I believe if a wheel is going to ask for $4000+ and weight as much as an Ebike then we should be getting top performances that warrant that kind of weight and pricing.

The V13 introduced a huge step forward in motor power and lift speed. But for some people nothing is ever enough.

23 hours ago, Sumako said:

Eventually physics is gonna become a reality when trying to fly down a highway on a suitcase at 100mph+ Obviously it has not happened at 70mph. But there will be a speed where standing on a turbo powered luggage is not realistic.

Seems like it has. The only one I know that has even barely surpassed 100km/h crashed on that very ride. And the V13 test riders don't have the guts to go over 65km/h, because they still  possess sense of speed and personal safety. The air resistance gets crazy much earlier than 100km/h. I'm well aware that some people go faster than 65km/h daily, but it's very far from common behaviour, and not even at all comfortable from what I've heard. 60+ km/h riders are and will always be just a small fraction of all EUC riders (in the EUC's current form).

23 hours ago, Sumako said:

One such idea would be to make an EUC the is self balancing on  ALL sides; front back side to side.

If you think about the technical requirements for such a device, you'll understand how far from the current EUCs such a device would be. After all, the EUC is steered by tilting, so you can't harness it for automatic balancing.

 

15 hours ago, Funky said:

And having real 16x3" tire would be better.

I'm 193cm tall, and I wouldn't go anywhere near 30mph with a 16x3" tire. It simply has to be 18" for those speeds for me.

15 hours ago, Funky said:

Selling something "bigger" for more $money$ is more profitable to the manufacturers, than selling something "smaller" that is ~2x cheaper..

I'm pretty sure that exactly this is one major reason for the current trends. Another is that only experienced riders tend to be willing to spend $3k+ on a new wheel, and many of those buy a new large wheel or two every year.

 

11 hours ago, samzed said:

I think there is definitely a market for euc dealers who function like the bike shops. They could charge a fair dealer fee for testing out the wheels and fixing the problems before they sell the wheel.

I'm not so sure about that. It would get really expensive real fast if Western hourly rates were applied on top of the wheel price. Just imagine what the Master would cost if a US shop replaced the linkage, shock, side pads, strengthened the chassis, modified the headlight not to blind others, waterproofing, etc...

Another problem is that the are a lot of issues that only the manufacturer can fix, such as software, structural integrity at the axle and others, display not working below +16·C, etc.

[Funky]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I'm 193cm tall, and I wouldn't go anywhere near 30mph with a 16x3" tire. It simply has to be 18" for those speeds for me.

The 16x3" i mean if KS16S had it, instead of the 2.125" tire. It would be much better wheel.

All new 16", 18" wheels should come now with 3" tire as standart. Or at least 2.5" on 16" wheels - no smaller.

Time to time i "cry" that 18xl didn't come originally with 18x3" tire. If i want M/C tires - i need to cut sides.. K66 tire is the only one, which i know can be cutted very easy/cleanly. Even K66 80/90-14 should fit, with little bit of DIY power. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Funky

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I'm 193cm tall, and I wouldn't go anywhere near 30mph with a 16x3" tire. It simply has to be 18" for those speeds for me.

I would, and I do on my V12, even on bumpy side streets.  I sometimes would be traveling 50+ km/h unintentionally. It just seemed so slow.

On the main roads, it's more like 60+ km/h.  Stability and braking are great, but I worried too much about headroom.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

I would, and I do on my V12, even on bumpy side streets.  I sometimes would be traveling 50+ km/h unintentionally. It just seemed so slow.

On the main roads, it's more like 60+ km/h.  Stability and braking are great, but I worried too much about headroom.

GTFO speed demon... You're not welcome here!!!  (Just kidding.) <3

 For our liking and needs that's simply is to fast.. Most i have done is 44km/h on my 18xl. (Doh i slowed down because of alarms..) I mostly keep riding around 30-35km/h. My 18xl is perfect for those speeds. Plenty of safety margin left.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Funky

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, Funky said:

For our liking and needs that's simply is to fast.. Most i have done is 44km/h on my 18xl. (Doh i slowed down because of alarms..) I mostly keep riding around 30-35km/h. My 18xl is perfect for those speeds. Plenty of safety margin left.

Well, I started euc thinking 32 km/h would be as fast as I needed. And I was content. I didn't want to go any faster because it didn't feel safe to go much faster. On the T3, even now, it is only comfortable to go at 30+ km/h on bumpy side streets. Maybe 45+ km/h on a smooth road.

But everything changed when my V12 became much more stable, and braking improved greatly. Perhaps, my riding improved a little too.

The thing is, I feel very comfortable going 50+ km/h on some roads.

Should you get a chance to ride a wheel that is more stable, and is to your liking, you may find yourself going 50+ km/h inadvertently too.

[xiiijojjo]

Market hasn't spoken, however for this forum you will keep seeing the same trend of veteran/high skill riders wanting new wheels on the cutting edge of specifications, but I believe some of the wheels that sell the most globally are the slower, regular commuter wheels. 

For me personally the ideal wheel would be (as in if this ever released I'd never buy another)

• Gotway firmware but with auto tilt-back right as 80% alarm goes off instead of electro-piezo which is already difficult to hear at higher speeds
• Msuper/RS form factor
• 120km/h (without hitting the 80% beeps)
• range is a little more irrelevant than charging speed. I go fast all the time so about 30-50km at high speeds would be enough (at 60-90km/h average speed)
• charge speed 0-100% charge in 2,5-3 hours
• 18inch
• preferably under 35kg if possible
• no suspension
• ACTUALLY water proof
• I don't care so much about smart BMS I'd rather have LiFePo4 or semi solid-state cells to altogether make fires an impossibility
• A shell that could survive a 100km/h+ crash. 
• internal charger

When it comes to price I'm a little more flexible than with current wheels considering this would be the last wheel I'd ever have to spend money on. Maybe 5k+€ ?

bonus points if I could also use the EUC as a modern powerstation with all the functionality that you would expect from those: AC and DC outputs + AC and DC in, chargeable with solar etc. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by xiiijojjo

[Funky]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Well, I started euc thinking 32 km/h would be as fast as I needed. And I was content. I didn't want to go any faster because it didn't feel safe to go much faster. On the T3, even now, it is only comfortable to go at 30+ km/h on bumpy side streets. Maybe 45+ km/h on a smooth road.

But everything changed when my V12 became much more stable, and braking improved greatly. Perhaps, my riding improved a little too.

The thing is, I feel very comfortable going 50+ km/h on some roads.

Should you get a chance to ride a wheel that is more stable, and is to your liking, you may find yourself going 50+ km/h inadvertently too.

I'll give you a so called "pro gamer" move. Don't ever upgrade to faster, more powerful wheel. And you won't need faster, more powerful wheel then.  

People upgrade and then seek out even more powerful/faster eucs.. Because you have tasted the "speed" the "power" and can't go back to so called "slow" wheels. I'm happy riding 30-40km/h. And i won't be upgrading to a faster wheel.

I'm not even afraid of riding faster.. You simply need "better" safety gear, as you ride faster - which i don't want to buy/use. Heck most times i only use wrist guards, but then i go ~15 mph speeds. So yeah.. I don't need/want speed. (Personal set speed limit ~15 mph, when only using wrist guards..)

And mostly because all faster wheels are more heavy. Which i don't want. Now if they someday make wheel that is the same weight as 18xl or lighter, but same time faster.. I may upgrade. Otherwise i don't see myself buying another euc ever. I have set myself my ideal weight - 65lbs nothing more. Lighter - better.

Don't really care how fast and how big range that wheel has. Simply be better than my 18xl. Otherwise it's a trash wheel, that i don't even take a second thought about. Be same/lighter weight and faster - or it's a pass from me.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Funky

[Funky]

8 minutes ago, xiiijojjo said:

Market hasn't spoken, however for this forum you will keep seeing the same trend of veteran/high skill riders wanting new wheels on the cutting edge of specifications, but I believe some of the wheels that sell the most globally are the slower, regular commuter wheels. 

For me personally the ideal wheel would be (as in if this ever released I'd never buy another)

• Gotway firmware but with auto tilt-back right as 80% alarm goes off instead of electro-piezo which is already difficult to hear at higher speeds
• Msuper/RS form factor
• 120km/h (without hitting the 80% beeps)
• range is a little more irrelevant than charging speed. I go fast all the time so about 30-50km at high speeds would be enough (at 60-90km/h average speed)
• charge speed 0-100% charge in 2,5-3 hours
• 18inch
• preferably under 35kg if possible
• no suspension
• ACTUALLY water proof
• I don't care so much about smart BMS I'd rather have LiFePo4 or semi solid-state cells to altogether make fires an impossibility
• A shell that could survive a 100km/h+ crash. 
• internal charger

When it comes to price I'm a little more flexible than with current wheels considering this would be the last wheel I'd ever have to spend money on. Maybe 5k+€ ?

bonus points if I could also use the EUC as a modern powerstation with all the functionality that you would expect from those: AC and DC outputs + AC and DC in, chargeable with solar etc. 

Our day and year technology - i don't see this wheel being lighter than 55kg... Mostly because it would need to be 134v++ wheel and have big batteries. And for those speeds you 100% would want 22+ inch wheel. Which again increases the weight. And because of the big batteries, the shell won't be so small.

Otherwise it would be great wheel. But sadly only in wonderland.  Maybe when solid state batteries become a thing.

My dream wheel is already in RS form factor.. Your wheel is 2x times bigger at least. In real life it would look something like V13. But bit, bit bigger.

[xiiijojjo]

11 minutes ago, Funky said:

Our day and year technology - i don't see this wheel being lighter than 55kg... Mostly because it would need to be 134v++ wheel and have big batteries. And for those speeds you 100% would want 22+ inch wheel. Which again increases the weight. And because of the big batteries, the shell won't be so small.

Otherwise it would be great wheel. But sadly only in wonderland.  Maybe when solid state batteries become a thing.

My dream wheel is already in RS form factor.. Your wheel is 2x times bigger at least. In real life it would look something like V13. But bit, bit bigger.

Yeah I agree this is just a wishful thinking wheel, not based in reality with current technological limitations.. I also agree that 22 inch or bigger would probably be best for 100km/h+ but I wouldn't want to actually go 100km/h+ on this wheel I would just want to be able to go on highways without slowing down traffic and endangering everyone as a result, not that I want to ride on highways but as someone who accidentally ended up on highways a handful of times without the option to turn back I'd love the speed for riding there safely until I can get off on the next exit. 

And for weight I once again agree that it would be a heavy and big wheel taking modern technological limitations into consideration, but after a few breakthroughs in battery tech it might be possible to squeeze all these stats into a 35kg wheel.

I remember a few years ago people were talking about 60km/h+ wheels never happening, or being 50kg+, so in a few years this hypothetical wheel might be more realistic or even doable. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by xiiijojjo

[Funky]

6 minutes ago, xiiijojjo said:

Yeah I agree this is just a wishful thinking wheel, not based in reality with current technological limitations.. I also agree that 22 inch or bigger would probably be best for 100km/h+ but I wouldn't want to actually go 100km/h+ on this wheel I would just want to be able to go on highways without slowing down traffic and endangering everyone as a result, not that I want to ride on highways but as someone who accidentally ended up on highways a handful of times without the option to turn back I'd love the speed for riding there safely until I can get off on the next exit. 

And for weight I once again agree that it would be a heavy and big wheel taking modern technological limitations into consideration, but after a few breakthroughs in battery tech it might be possible to squeeze all these stats into a 35kg wheel.

I remember a few years ago people were talking about 60km/h+ wheels never happening, or being 50kg+, so in a few years this hypothetical wheel might be more realistic or even doable. 

How the heck someone may "accidentally" end up on highway.  Now that's something.  

Yeah, when solid state batteries become a thing, i can see having lighter/faster wheels. Also very fast recharge times. 0-100% in what ~30mins or so.  Now that will be the day, when EUC's become very popular. People won't need big batteries, because wheel can be recharged fully in ~30mins. No more fires. Simply dream come true.

 

Doh - we need to wait at least ~6 years... Till we get new subpar wheels.

[xiiijojjo]

10 minutes ago, Funky said:

How the heck someone may "accidentally" end up on highway.  Now that's something.  

Yeah, when solid state batteries become a thing, i can see having lighter/faster wheels. Also very fast recharge times. 0-100% in what ~30mins or so.  Now that will be the day, when EUC's become very popular. People won't need big batteries, because wheel can be recharged fully in ~30mins. No more fires. Simply dream come true.

 

Doh - we need to wait at least ~6 years... Till we get new subpar wheels.

Well all the times I ended up on highways I was exploring a new city in a new country at the time, took a turn onto a road that had no indication of it leading to a highway with no way of turning back because of single lane one-way traffic.

Yeah I also can't wait for battery-tech to catch up to the demand of things like EUCs and Powerstations, it will be revolutionary.

Well I think I can keep my RS alive until then, I'll probably just have to have the battery packs inspected to remove dead/damaged cells 1-2 times before something like what I proposed is released. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by xiiijojjo

[Guest]

1 hour ago, xiiijojjo said:

 

• 120km/h

Are you serious on a euc forum, with cool guys ?

[GoGeorgeGo]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I don't know where you live, but around here the word "realistic" means something very different...

 

And that's exactly why manufacturers should develop wheels in other size/weight groups as well, not just "max everything, at any weight".

Like a few others, I strongly disagree with this. The manufacturers are currently in a competition frenzy, and they try to beat each other in speed, wattage, and battery. Other features and properties have been mostly ignored lately. Btw, do any of the companies seem to you like they were interested in Western market research in the slightest? To me they don't.

The V8 being the most sold model speaks loudly.

I'm pretty sure @Funky wasn't taking about S2 class EUCs, but more about the 16S to 18XL classes. They are definitely less of a toy than the latest warrior Begodes that barely even survive the shipping to the customer. And even if they do, they need to be inspected and repaired before the first ride.

We said the exact same thing 3-4 years ago, but the quality has definitely gotten worse.

No, you're missing the fact that new wheels sell, old ones don't. T4 seem to be doing pretty well, doesn't it?

16S, V8S, MCM5v2, V10F etc are all being made all the time. And they are being sold here and there, all the time. Surely not as much in the enthusiast shops that we tend to know and follow, but the only ones that beginners know about. The large convenience store that sells EUCs in Finland doesn't carry Shermans...

 

You probably meant to type "V12". Although others than the first issue you mentioned don't concern either of them.

 

The V13 introduced a huge step forward in motor power and lift speed. But for some people nothing is ever enough.

Seems like it has. The only one I know that has even barely surpassed 100km/h crashed on that very ride. And the V13 test riders don't have the guts to go over 65km/h, because they still  possess sense of speed and personal safety. The air resistance gets crazy much earlier than 100km/h. I'm well aware that some people go faster than 65km/h daily, but it's very far from common behaviour, and not even at all comfortable from what I've heard. 60+ km/h riders are and will always be just a small fraction of all EUC riders (in the EUC's current form).

If you think about the technical requirements for such a device, you'll understand how far from the current EUCs such a device would be. After all, the EUC is steered by tilting, so you can't harness it for automatic balancing.

 

I'm 193cm tall, and I wouldn't go anywhere near 30mph with a 16x3" tire. It simply has to be 18" for those speeds for me.

I'm pretty sure that exactly this is one major reason for the current trends. Another is that only experienced riders tend to be willing to spend $3k+ on a new wheel, and many of those buy a new large wheel or two every year.

 

I'm not so sure about that. It would get really expensive real fast if Western hourly rates were applied on top of the wheel price. Just imagine what the Master would cost if a US shop replaced the linkage, shock, side pads, strengthened the chassis, modified the headlight not to blind others, waterproofing, etc...

Another problem is that the are a lot of issues that only the manufacturer can fix, such as software, structural integrity at the axle and others, display not working below +16·C, etc.

so when i say the market has spoken, what i really mean is the financial data is clearly telling them to make hig wheels. we can all agree that this is a niche user base still. take something like a v8. it only sells for 900$ retail. figure dealers are around a 50% markup, so they are gettinf about 450$ for it. probably costs 250$ to make so they are getting 200$ per sale. 

a v12 retails for 2300$ , so call it a 1150 sale to inmotion. a v12 takes similar space and labor to produce just the matsrials cost more. figure even if it costs 750$ for them to produce, thats still 400$ profit per unit. 

considering everything is always on backorder, that means they are selling above prodcution capacity. and they need to produce sell and store materials for twice as many machines to make the same profit. 

obviously im just guesstimating numbers, but if you dont have unlimited space and labor to throw at production and fullfillment, your obviously going to concentrate on increasing your margins within the limits of your facility. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by GoGeorgeGo

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

Don't really care how fast and how big range that wheel has. Simply be better than my 18xl. Otherwise it's a trash wheel, that i don't even take a second thought about. Be same/lighter weight and faster - or it's a pass from me.

It did cross my mind that this could be the case for you since you live in a small town, and perhaps this is your sweet spot.

On the other hand, for myself, although using an euc as a PEV is grand, and has a fun and useful purpose, I also see an opportunity for it to replace my motorcycle as well. Additionally, unexpectedly, I discovered that the extra weight, bulk, top heaviness, and higher effort to operate of my V12 over the my T3, don't bother me the slightest. In fact, to my surprise, my V12 has become my preferred norm. I only ride my T3, if I can't ride my V12, even if I have to load it in the back of an SUV. Climbing stairs is no longer a chore since I can roll it up and down steps. Easy peasy. With my T3, I have to carry it up and down steps. Not my preference. 

With this realization, I am currently wondering where could my eventual sweet spot end up being. Only trial an error, and time will tell, I suppose. 🙂

[Funky]

49 minutes ago, techyiam said:

It did cross my mind that this could be the case for you since you live in a small town, and perhaps this is your sweet spot.

On the other hand, for myself, although using an euc as a PEV is grand, and has a fun and useful purpose, I also see an opportunity for it to replace my motorcycle as well. Additionally, unexpectedly, I discovered that the extra weight, bulk, top heaviness, and higher effort to operate of my V12 over the my T3, don't bother me the slightest. In fact, to my surprise, my V12 has become my preferred norm. I only ride my T3, if I can't ride my V12, even if I have to load it in the back of an SUV. Climbing stairs is no longer a chore since I can roll it up and down steps. Easy peasy. With my T3, I have to carry it up and down steps. Not my preference. 

With this realization, I am currently wondering where could my eventual sweet spot end up being. Only trial an error, and time will tell, I suppose. 🙂

How can one "roll" up/down V12 on stairs. You can't even climb with sherman/s22 wheels, which have bigger tire.  If climbing was easy - i would not complain about weight.  Doh carrying in train still would be "harder". (We got the old trains here - where you need to walk upwards.)

Yeah my city is ~4x4 miles big. You can walk from one end to other in about 20 minutes.. And if you got work in different city it's ~14mile ride, mainly with - train, personal transport, or bus. Because we only got railway/highway connected to different cities. I don't want to ride ~56mph on my euc.  And like i said - we don't really ride with cars here.

Naturally in small city = small euc.

Same thing when i rode ks16s vs my 18xl. Even with my pedals lifted, it still is way, way more stable at speed. And even doing small movement like turning 180/360 in place felt more natural. But i think it's mainly because 18xl is mine wheel and i have gotten used to it..

Edited October 18, 2022 by Funky

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

How can one "roll" up/down V12 on stairs. You can't even climb with sherman/s22 wheels, which have bigger tire. 

As long as the tire is sufficiently exposed so that the tire can come in contact with the nosing of the next step, you just have to provide enough normal force at the contact patch to generate enough traction, and the wheel will climb by itself. Going down steps is similar. You just need to provide enough normal force at the contact patch with the nosing, and the wheel will automatically brake and slowly descend each step. It is a low effort affair.

For climbing, you need to push the back of the wheel at a spot that is about a third way down from the top, for the V12. The only force you provide is only to create enough tire traction with the nosing of the next step. Do not try to help by providing a lifting force. It will only cause the tire to slip.

For descending, it is even easier since less traction is required. Just hold on to the top handle and pull back. Do not pull up to assist. The tire will slip.

I can't use this technique on the T3 because the plastic chassis covers the tire where it needs to make contact with the nosing of the next step. So, I have to carry it.

Edited October 18, 2022 by techyiam

[Cerbera]

44 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Do not try to help by providing a lifting force. It will only cause the tire to slip.

Thank you for this excellent tip. I have to ramp my Master into the car, but once it reaches the lip of the ramp it drops 4 inches into the boot (trunk), which means I need to summit that on the way out. I thought I would try and help it by lifting, which resulted in exactly the spin you mentioned, moreso I suspect because it was a wet tyre.

So having read this, when I tried it today I instead applied a little pressure up its backside and up she popped ! Bravo !

[Freeforester]

Maybe a judiciously placed wooden or printed wedge/mini ramp might help? All good if it’s only a matter of technique learning, all the same.