I had Enough of China

[litewave]

54 minutes ago, Paul A said:

The source is Reuters.

 

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Have you seen The Island ?

Is this possibly happening elsewhere in the world, in some shape or form? If poor people are seduced into selling their organs because their only choices for survival are enslavement by drug, agriculture or manufacturing cartels, isn't that the same?

Who, and how many, of the nearly 1.5 billion people in China are committing or would approve of these acts?

Also, could this happen in your country with the wrong leader, given the malignant, divisive and hateful demonizing of various political parties or ethnic groups?

Edited May 10, 2022 by litewave

[Paul A]

https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m859

Published 03 March 2020

 

Chinese doctors admitted in undercover calls that harvested organs were available, informal tribunal finds

 

Doctors from leading Chinese hospitals admitted in undercover phone calls that organs harvested from Falun Gong detainees were available, an informal, independent “people’s tribunal” has disclosed.

 

The seven member panel concluded last year that mass forced organ harvesting from prisoners of conscience in China over years constitutes crimes against humanity under international law.

 

The tribunal has now released a more detailed body of evidence that it says supports its conclusion that China is guilty of a continuing, state run programme of forced organ harvesting from innocent prisoners of conscience.

________________________

 

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[Paul A]

A person can only possibly sell one kidney, as it is possible to survive with one kidney.

 

Selling an organ as a means of survival is not likely......as a person missing an organ would not survive.

 

The organ harvesting is from people still alive.  They are not selling an organ.  They are not donating organ(s) upon death.

[shellac]

Like I said before, the Chinese organ harvesting thing is a fundamentally racist trope.

This so called China Tribunal ran a kangaroo court and platformed anti-China cranks and decided based on pure hearsay that Chinese are harvesting organs.  If this has been ongoing in China, where is the whistleblower with hidden camera footage? Everyone in China has cameras. You can bet there would be a bunch of those if this nonsense was remotely true.

Unless you’ve been living under a rock, you should know that Western media will uncritically publish lots of bad information, particularly when it fits the US foreign policy agenda. If you believe that Reuters did their due diligence and didn’t just uncritically print anti China propaganda, well I have some WMDs in Iraq you might want to know about. 

Recall the fake stories about Iraqis killing Kuwaiti babies in incubators that the press decided to run with?

Academic journals (at least the major ones) are a good source, much better than Reuters, but that’s a news blurb from BMJ, not a peer reviewed article. Those allegations wouldn’t pass muster in peer review because there’s not enough evidence. 

[Paul A]

There is a very small time frame, a window of opportunity, in which to extract viable organs from a donor, and transplant to a recipient.

There needs to be a suitable match/comparability.

 

Typically, the waiting time for a recipient can be many years.  Demand exceeds supply greatly.  

A recipient, when notified, needs to be prepared to be able to get to a hospital at any time immediately.  Death of a suitable donor is unpredictable.

 

The organs of the donor need to be extracted and transported quickly to the donor, sometimes large distances.

The process is ad hoc.

 

How is it possible for China to offer organ transplants, booked many weeks/months in advance?

To offer package tours including flights, accommodation, to international recipients well in advance?

 

Prices published for hearts, lungs, kidneys etc are in the tens of thousands $USD.

[goatman]

im surprised that people actually dont believe China is doing this, i thought it was common knowledge

Remember the suicide nets at Apple?

i think if a person is done with living they should be allowed to auction off their organs and leave their family a whack of cash,

it beats jumping off a building or a bridge and going splat

i just dont think thats what is happening in China

 

[Mango]

China kills millions of female fetuses, so it’s not a stretch of the imagination they kill hundreds or thousands of political prisoners, minorities and criminals for their organs. When there is no separation of judicial and executive branches of government, like there is in first world countries, these atrocities do tend to be more prevalent. 

[Paul A]

Amnesty International UK

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/groups/oxford-city-central/harvesting-organs-transplant-religious-prisoners-including-uyghur

Posted 24 Aug 2021

Harvesting the organs for transplant, from religious prisoners, including Uyghur Muslims

 

Thousands persecuted and killed for their religious and spiritual beliefs.

The world’s least known crime against humanity.

The use of prisoners in camps and secret jails as a source of organs for transplants.

 

It is ‘beyond reasonable doubt that the forced harvesting of organs from religious prisoners in China - Falun Gong, Christians and Muslims – has been state organised and on a huge scale’ (China Tribunal 2019).

China does 60,000 and 90,000 transplants a year. Waiting times for those who can pay are one to four weeks. China harvested organs from executed prisoners for many years, denied it, promised to stop and to start a donor programme.

 

Anyway, execution figures, donor lists and transplant data are state secrets. China continues to refuse independent verification of the data.

The number of known donors is tiny and does not come close to the number of transplants.

Religious prisoners report regular biometric testing, collection of blood data and organ health tests, and unexplained disappearances from jails and camps.

The murders are in the thousands per year. The world is almost silent about it.

 

What you can do now:

Spend twenty minutes informing yourself

Watch this seven-minute film

China’s $$$-Billion Murder for Organs Industry - Explainer [UPDATED]

12,933 views

Apr 12, 2021

 

 

 

Read the short form conclusion of the China Tribunal

https://chinatribunal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/China-Tribunal-SHORT-FORM-CONCLUSION_Final.pdf

Edited May 11, 2022 by Paul A
Video title and date

[litewave]

I didn't dispute the accuracy or authenticity of the Reuter's story. I just think it is wrong to say "China" is doing this bad thing or that. There are elements in China that are engaged in this behaviour, but it is wrong to speak as if the entire country is committing these acts or even approves of it.

I also think we should resist bashing any country or people on this site. This EUC community is a powerful force to bring people together from all over the world to share their love of electric unicycles, and I think every country and all people should feel welcome.

Edited May 11, 2022 by litewave

[Paul A]

Yes, it is inaccurate to imply all of the Chinese people are complicit.

It is the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).

[mrelwood]

 

4 hours ago, goatman said:

Remember the suicide nets at Apple?

This was yet another great example of heavily weighted news reporting, which in peoples’ minds turns into “suicides at Apple”. A few facts that are easy to confirm:

- The “suicides at Apple” happened at Foxconn which is it’s own electronics manufacturer that manufactured products and parts for Apple, Sony, Xiaomi, Google, Microsoft, Nokia, Kindle, Nintendo, etc. It’s not an Apple factory. Apple was simply the only Foxconn customer that publicly reported the rising suicide rates, and violations against labor laws and their own pre-existing labor rules.

- At it’s highest peak in 2010, the “Foxconn suicide” percentages (0.000016%) were still well below the national average (0.02223%). And of course below the US average (0.0093%).

- A title like “Suicides at Foxconn” doesn’t quite have the same shock element than “Suicides at an Apple factory”. So news agencies went with the latter. Shock and awe.

[UniVehje]

4 hours ago, Paul A said:

China continues to refuse independent verification of the data.

This is the best reason to believe these  claims might be true. An open and democratic nation would not be able to hide such atrocities. In China the system allows it and there’s a huge monetary incentive to do it. 
 

But it’s also true that it’s the ruling party that does it. Not the IM and KS employees. And they are not asked who should rule the country. They most likely have not even heard these claims unless having a habit of reading western media via VPN. However, at some point the people have at least some responsibility of what their leaders are doing. In the end, buying from China finances also the communist party there. 

[Paul A]

https://www.sfgate.com/health/article/Patients-seeking-transplants-turn-to-China-2537166.php

April 17, 2006

Patients seeking transplants turn to China / Rights activists fear organs are taken from executed prisoners

Eric DeLeon was dying of liver cancer.

He was told he would have to wait at least 2 years for a transplant.

So he flew to China and paid $110,000 for a liver transplant.

He's one of a growing number of Americans going to China for transplants.

However, there's a controversy of just where the organs come from - executed prisoners, human rights activists say.

 

The San Mateo father of six learned in May 2005 that he had liver cancer. Chemotherapy seemed to knock out the tumors, but in January a scan turned up nine more and he was taken off the transplant list. Too risky, his doctors said. The cancer would probably return in the new organ, the doctors told De Leon, 50, a construction superintendent who cried when he learned of his prognosis.

 

De Leon researched overseas transplant centers on the Web, chose Yeson International Healthcare in bustling Shanghai and began a blog.

The liver he received last month came from a 20-year-old, doctors told him.

 

Hundreds of Americans and other foreigners are now finding their last, best chance for survival with organ transplants in China, where businesses are opening to meet international demand.

Roughly 17,000 Americans needed liver transplants in 2004; only 6,100 patients received them, based on availability, their risk of dying in surgery, their chances for long-term survival and other factors.

It is unknown how many Americans are now going to China, India, the Philippines and other developing countries for transplants they cannot get in this country.

_______________________________________________________

 

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[Paul A]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(07)60897-6/fulltext

June 09, 2007

 

China introduces new rules to deter human organ trade

In recent years, China has become a major destination for “transplant tourists”, who cannot get the life-saving surgery they need in their own countries.

In terms of the number of operations, China with an estimated 10 000 transplants every year is second only to the USA.

Most are for domestic patients. But the procedures pose grave ethical problems.

This is partly because of the increasingly market-driven nature of the Chinese health service.

Hospitals are under pressure to generate income, which means they ask fewer questions about where the money comes from or how it is earned.

As a result, many wealthy foreigners have bought their way to the front of the queue for organs, while an estimated 1·5 million Chinese wait in vain for transplant operations.

 

Newspapers in the USA, Japan, South Korea, Canada, Israel, and various countries in Europe have carried interview stories with the beneficiaries, many of whom expressed a mixture of delight at being alive and unease about the origin of their new kidney, liver, or heart.

Numerous businesses have sprung up in China, offering to help foreign patients find the parts and surgeons they need.

Yeson Healthcare Services in Shanghai began accepting overseas business in 2001.

It charges a minimum of £60 000 for a liver or heart transplant and £30 000 for a kidney transplant.

 

In 2005, it arranged more than 479 heart, liver, or kidney transplant operations—many of them for non-Chinese people.

“More and more foreigners are coming to China for transplants because medical standards here are improving. It is a life-saving chance because if they were in the USA, they might have to wait 3 or 4 years for a new liver”, said Tony Lee, a senior service care provider in Yeson.

He insisted no payment is made for organs, most of which come from prisoners.

_____________________________________________________

 

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History

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[shellac]

@Paul A So to be clear what we’re arguing about here, the article you posted says that China is taking organs from political prisoners on death row without their consent. That’s the point of contention  

China does allow prisoners on death row to voluntarily donate organs, or at least did so until very recently. There is no dispute on this. China has said this themselves.

Also, FYI I’m a doctor and I’m well familiar with how transplantation works, having done them myself in training. For certain organs like kidneys they could use living donors and schedule the transplant ahead of time. For the heart and liver it is trickier. They would have to rely on someone being injured to the point of brain death but still alive in the hospital and otherwise stable. Then you could schedule the transplant for the near term future. The death row prisoners who want to donate could also be used in this manner and presumably are. 

That’s different from what this China Tribunal is alleging in the Reuters article. 

Now you can argue about how much a death row prisoner can really give consent for donation. In the West this isn’t acceptable of course.

If you a have someone dying from fulminant liver failure and needs an emergency transplant, is it ethical to accept an organ donation from a convicted murderer on death row? At least one life would be saved. Does it setup a slippery slope where capital punishment is encouraged? I would guess so  

I’m not a bioethicist by any means but I personally think capital punishment is unethical so it’s a moot point for me, but that’s the system China decided to set up. 

Again this is very different from the allegations from the Falun Gongers, that they are having their organs forcibly removed. 

[Paul A]

No, it is not that prisoners on death row are or are not voluntarily consenting to donating organs.  That is not the main concern, or point of contention.

Please refer to the findings of the China Tribunal.

Please refer to the video contained in the Amnesty International post.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Paul A

[Paul A]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-research-china-harvested-organs-from-living-people-doctors-helped-with-executions-1.10726687

Apr. 10, 2022

China Harvested Organs From Living People, Doctors Helped With Executions, Israeli Researcher Claims

_________________________________

 

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[shellac]

6 minutes ago, Paul A said:

No, it is not that prisoners on death row are or are not voluntarily consenting to donating organs.  That is not the main concern, or point of contention.

Please refer to the findings of the China Tribunal.

The CT is saying they’re being “murdered” and then having their organs forcibly removed.  This is what I would call being on death row and then being executed, with less inflammatory language. I’m not sure what distinction you’re trying to make here.

Again all this so called evidence you are link bombing is based on hearsay. 

[Paul A]

The China Tribunal's finding is that people are being killed to order for their organs.

Watch the video contained in the Amnesty International post.

Read the evidence presented by the China Tribunal.

Read the evidence presented by the Israeli Haaretz article.

 

 

[shellac]

I’m well familiar with their arguments. If this were really taking place there would be some kind of real smoking gun evidence, not just testimony. The Israeli researcher says he has smoking gun evidence, that some of the donors were being ventilated until the time of donation. This is easily explained by China using death row inmates who’ve volunteered to donate (again, a practice I don’t agree with). 

Read this about Falun Gong:

Reports on China ‘organ harvesting’ derive from front groups of far-right cult Falun Gong

[Paul A]

5 minutes ago, shellac said:

Read this about Falun Gong:

Reports on China ‘organ harvesting’ derive from front groups of far-right cult Falun Gong

 

Credibility of 'The Gray Zone'.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-grayzone/

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The Grayzone publishes questionable material, stating that a Chemical Attack did not occur in Douma, Syria OPCW investigator testifies at UN that no chemical attack took place in Douma, Syria.

 

They have also promoted conspiracy theories, such as claiming that Pete Buttigieg is a CIA agent.

There is no evidence to support this claim.

 

Finally, according to Radio Free Asia, The Grayzone content is frequently shared by the Chinese Communist Party media outlets “CCP propaganda is also increasingly laundered through Western influencers and denialist fringe media outlets like The Grayzone,” the report said, adding that, between December 2019 and February 2021,

The Grayzone was cited at least 313 times in Chinese state media.”

 

 

Finally, The Grayzone promotes conspiracy theories involving George Soros funding regime changes, and the editor Max Blumenthal claims that Bill Gates ran a Covid simulation before it occurred.

This is false.

In general, The Grayzone promotes a socialist left perspective that promotes conspiracy theories and pro-Russian/Chinese propaganda.

 

Overall, we rate The Grayzone Far-Left Biased and Questionable based on the promotion of propaganda, conspiracy theories, and consistent one-sided reporting. (D. Van Zandt 9/25/2021)

 

Last Updated on January 20, 2022 by Media Bias Fact Check

[Paul A]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-research-china-harvested-organs-from-living-people-doctors-helped-with-executions-1.10726687

According to the dead donor rule, it is prohibited to cause death by procuring organs. Lavee and Robertson’s research checked whether Chinese doctors determined brain death as required before conducting operations to procure organs.

 

“In order to determine that a subject is brain dead, the subject must unequivocally have no independent breathing capabilities,” Lavee said. “The test is done by cutting the subject off from artificial ventilation provided via intubation through the trachea. After cutting off ventilation, the doctors wait to see whether the patient is breathing independently. They also check CO2 levels in the subject’s blood.”

 

If the doctors have not observed spontaneous breathing, Lavee explained, they can determine that the subject has no breathing reflex and rule that the subject is brain dead and therefore proclaim the person dead. “The medical establishment accepts this standard worldwide,” he says. “Chinese medical literature also accepts this procedure for determining brain death, even though China lacks an explicit law governing brain death.” 

 

Lavee said the “incriminating sentences” found in 71 papers were no more than a line or two within papers dealing with methodology.

“The sentences show time after time that the organ ‘donor’ was ventilated only after the surgical procedure commenced, or was ventilated only with a mask – proof that the ‘donor’ had been breathing independently, without ventilation, up until the operation,” he explained. 

[shellac]

You don’t need to quote the article. I read it. If you’re accepting donations from death row prisoners, of course you’re also not following the dead donor rule. You’re not going to be able to use any organs after giving a lethal injection, electric chair, or whatever. The execution has to follow the organ procurement.

Media reliability ratings are just a guide and shouldn’t be taken for gospel. For example, the NYT is rated highly but uncritically published false information about Iraq WMDs. Having a good rating doesn’t mean you shouldn’t look at the article in detail and see how they are confirming allegations. In both the case of WMDs and the organ transplant stuff, there was and is no smoking gun.

Max Blumenthal’s The grayzone wasn’t around in 2001, but you can bet they would have been skeptical of the WMD narrative from the mainstream media.

[Paul A]

China Tribunal.

https://chinatribunal.com/

 

Judgement.  Evidence.

https://chinatribunal.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ChinaTribunal_JUDGMENT_1stMarch_2020.pdf

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The Gray Zone is not credible.

Don't know what else to say.

Sorry to not be of assistance.

Thank you.

[shellac]

Yep I think we will just have to agree to disagree.