Popular Post meepmeepmayer Posted March 21, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 21, 2022 At first glance, one thinks bigger batteries are to blame for the crazy heavy new wheels. But if you do the math, it turns out it's not the batteries. It's the motors and the rest of the construction! And it was always this bad. Here are some example wheels: Abrams 44kg, of which about 10kg (only 23%!!) are the 2700Wh of battery EX20S 47kg, of which under 14kg (29%) are the 3600Wh battery V11 27kg, of which under 6kg (22%) are the 1500Wh battery V12 29kg, of which under 7kg (24%) are the 1800Wh battery S18 25 kg, of which under 4.5kg (18% OMG!!) are the 1110Wh battery S20 36kg, of which under 9kg (25%) are the 2220Wh battery Master 36kg, of which about 9kg (25%) are the 2400Wh battery Sherman MAX 39kg(?), of which under 14kg (36%) are the 3600Wh battery This is depressing! If you're very lucky, only one third of the entire wheel weight is the battery. More likely, it's one fourth or even (way) less. For comparison some slightly older wheels: RS 27kg, of which under 7kg (26%) are the 1800Wh battery 18XL 25.5kg, of which about 6kg (24%) are the 1600Wh battery 16X 24.5kg, of which about 6kg (25%) are the 1600Wh battery Nikola 26kg, of which under 7kg (27%) are the 1800Wh battery V10F 20.5kg, of which about 4kg (20%) are the ~1000Wh battery This isn't even better! Some really old wheels: ACM 20kg, of which about 6kg (30%) are the 1600Wh battery Msuper V3 26kg(?), of which about 6kg (23%) are the 1600Wh battery It was never good - Do you think wheels could be lighter if manufacturers cared (more) about weight? Or is there some reason why the motors must be so heavy and the boards must be in heavy metal boxes and so on? How could wheels be made lighter if it's not the batteries? You can take away from this thread that battery weight has always been a constant (and low!) part of wheel weight. So the new, crazy heavy wheels aren't even as bad as one might think. Or you can take away that manufacturers need to start caring about weight, because 40+ kg is not fun - (Big shout out to @AtlasP's wheel comparison table from which I took most of the weights.) 7 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 Could most likely make them both more lighter and more durable with more advanced materials but it comes at a cost both for R&D and prototyping into which materials to use and cost of materials, this would make prices go up and people are already complaining about the high prices so it seems like an impossible direction to go towards currently. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMA Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 i can add some others data for you: when calculating info on begode wheels you should consider 4kg for the 900wh pack , so 8kg for a 1800wh c30 motor is 10.x kg c38 motor is 11.x kg EX c40 motor is 14.5kg 16' motors are lighter 18' inner tube + knobby tire = 350g + 2200g = 2.5kg cst 1488 v11 tire is 1kg less than a c186 knobby or a kenda k340 some wheels are already into the best weight/performance ratio, best example RS and EXN for other wheels we need to consider the addition features... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: At first glance, one thinks bigger batteries are to blame for the crazy heavy new wheels. But if you do the math, it turns out it's not the batteries. It's the motors and the rest of the construction! And it was always this bad. Here are some example wheels: Abrams 44kg, of which about 10kg (only 23%!!) are the 2700Wh of battery EX20S 47kg, of which under 14kg (29%) are the 3600Wh battery V11 27kg, of which under 6kg (22%) are the 1500Wh battery V12 29kg, of which under 7kg (24%) are the 1800Wh battery S18 25 kg, of which under 4.5kg (18% OMG!!) are the 1110Wh battery S20 36kg, of which under 9kg (25%) are the 2220Wh battery Master 36kg, of which about 9kg (25%) are the 2400Wh battery Sherman MAX 39kg(?), of which under 14kg (36%) are the 3600Wh battery This is depressing! If you're very lucky, only one third of the entire wheel weight is the battery. More likely, it's one fourth or even (way) less. For comparison some slightly older wheels: RS 27kg, of which under 7kg (26%) are the 1800Wh battery 18XL 25.5kg, of which about 6kg (24%) are the 1600Wh battery 16X 24.5kg, of which about 6kg (25%) are the 1600Wh battery Nikola 26kg, of which under 7kg (27%) are the 1800Wh battery V10F 20.5kg, of which about 4kg (20%) are the ~1000Wh battery This isn't even better! Some really old wheels: ACM 20kg, of which about 6kg (30%) are the 1600Wh battery Msuper V3 26kg(?), of which about 6kg (23%) are the 1600Wh battery It was never good - Do you think wheels could be lighter if manufacturers cared (more) about weight? Or is there some reason why the motors must be so heavy and the boards must be in heavy metal boxes and so on? How could wheels be made lighter if it's not the batteries? You can take away from this thread that battery weight has always been a constant (and low!) part of wheel weight. So the new, crazy heavy wheels aren't even as bad as one might think. Or you can take away that manufacturers need to start caring about weight, because 40+ kg is not fun - (Big shout out to @AtlasP's wheel comparison table from which I took most of the weights.) Wanted to fix a BIG, BIG mistake 18xl isn't 25.5kg, it's 24.5kg <3 (It became 25.5kg, when i put on K66 tire. ) There's also that all these "new" wheels are so big = more material = more weight.. I love how small ks16s, 18xl are. Edited March 21, 2022 by Funky 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 21, 2022 Author Share Posted March 21, 2022 2 hours ago, EMA said: 18' inner tube + knobby tire = 350g + 2200g = 2.5kg 2.2kg for only a tire?! If you say it I believe it but...phew 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: How could wheels be made lighter if it's not the batteries? Well, we still want our EUC's fast and powerful, so we're gonna need copper. There's no way around it. I think the most mass-efficient formula for a 40mph-capable EUC with > 2kWh is Nik AR. Smaller rim, smaller tire, plastic body, and still all the powerful guts. NikAR is another standout in terms of mass... assuming the 2700wh packs total 10.3kg, that's 35% battery by weight, same as Sherm. But if the weight isn't in the body, and also not in the pack, then it's in the places it matters- the motor, tire, and rim. Don't skimp on those.  Edited March 21, 2022 by RagingGrandpa 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKW Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 I like how some of the wheels are heavy. Good for stability and harder to steal. But then again, I don't own a heavy wheel yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 1 minute ago, bkw said: I like how some of the wheels are heavy. Good for stability and harder to steal. But then again, I don't own a heavy wheel yet. Mass is bad. We're stuck with it, so it's something we live with... A Sherman at 35mph over bumps is much much more difficult to stabilize as a rider, than an MSP, with the same tire, at the same speed, over the same bump.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 17 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: 2.2kg for only a tire?! If you say it I believe it but...phew Original tire CST C-1488 18x2.5 is (1050grams). K66 80/80-14 is (2080grams). So basically it's 2x the weight. Also a lot thicker. Sidewalls alone are 5x thicker. Surface is around 2x thicker. < Amazing tire doh, love it.  1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 Batteries and motors arent made of thin air. As far as current tech goes, I think they are about as light as they can be. Until we see improvements in battery and basic electric motor efficiency, weight will remain. Look at the weight vs specs of the little 67v mten. Even that little thing has some heft to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 1 minute ago, ShanesPlanet said: Batteries and motors arent made of thin air. As far as current tech goes, I think they are about as light as they can be. Until we see improvements in battery and basic electric motor efficiency, weight will remain. Look at the weight vs specs of the little 67v mten. Even that little thing has some heft to it. Doh riding one i fill like little fairy, gliding true air.  It's so magical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMA Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 32 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: 2.2kg for only a tire?! If you say it I believe it but...phew exactly  not everyone consider that C1488 18x3 is 1.3kg super soft and thin, it last 5000km max in a decent shape any kind of 80/90-14 is 2.2-2.3kg , superior quality and 10000km easy 22 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said: Well, we still want our EUC's fast and powerful, so we're gonna need copper. There's no way around it. I think the most mass-efficient formula for a 40mph-capable EUC with > 2kWh is Nik AR. Smaller rim, smaller tire, plastic body, and still all the powerful guts. NikAR is another standout in terms of mass... assuming the 2700wh packs total 10.3kg, that's 35% battery by weight, same as Sherm. But if the weight isn't in the body, and also not in the pack, then it's in the places it matters- the motor, tire, and rim. Don't skimp on those.  nik+ at 30kg is best weight/power ratio EXN is 32kg due to motor and tire 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) 2 minutes ago, EMA said: weight/power ratio Uhoh, hopefully you don't take the "motor power ratings" seriously? Â (The rider feels force, not power...)Â Edited March 21, 2022 by RagingGrandpa 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhpr262 Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 One could use much lighter, high revving outrunner or even inrunner electric motor instead of the heavy hub motor if one used gears, or a belt with a high reduction ratio to drive the actual wheel. Unfortunately I dont think that it is possible to build such a transmission that is rugged enough to withstand even normal use over thousands of kilometers, much less jumps and stunts. It might work if one exclusively rode on smooth asphalt roads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whalesmash Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 Hollow bore motors are generally heavier than their standard axel counterparts. Add in suspension components and you're taking a hit on the power to weight. The EX is probably the worst offender with its massive motor and tremendously heavy steel/whatever-alloy-they-use suspension components. I think the motor/suspension components alone weighed more than my entire S18 when I took the wheel apart for a tire change. I honestly thought I forgot to disconnect the motor wires or something with how much effort it took to pull the motor and suspension out of the plastic carcass. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhpr262 Posted March 21, 2022 Share Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) Axial flux motors ought to offer a lot of potential when it comes to reducing weight. You wont get much more power out of them because the bottleneck are the batteries, but the same power and torque at a much lower weight and possibly with slightly increased efficancy would be a nice bonus. Edited March 29, 2022 by mhpr262 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 9 hours ago, Funky said: Wanted to fix a BIG, BIG mistake 18xl isn't 25.5kg, it's 24.5kg That was a close one! Weight has always been a concern for me. I'll stick with my 23kg MSX and 19kg Tesla. If you cap them at 40km/h you're pretty darn safe. I made the mistake of trying to get speed out of a lightweight wheel. Don't ever do that. Priorities 1. Speed/power margin 2+. Weight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 8 hours ago, mhpr262 said: One could use much lighter, high revving outrunner or even inrunner electric motor instead of the heavy hub motor if one used gears, or a belt with a high reduction ratio to drive the actual wheel. Unfortunately I dont think that it is possible to build such a transmission that is rugged enough to withstand even normal use over thousands of kilometers, much less jumps and stunts. It might work if one exclusively rode on smooth asphalt roads. Rockwheel used to use internal gears. Their wheels could climb inclines no other brand could climb. I wonder how reliable they were... The later released wheels without the gearing so I'm guessing, not good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfiniteWheelie Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 (edited) I have the Sherman and I don't get the weight complaints. When riding I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a lighter wheel, it adds stability and traction. The weight has never seemed like a negative when riding. When lifting it sure, but it's totally manageable for me. Edited March 22, 2022 by InfiniteWheelie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 1 hour ago, InfiniteWheelie said: I have the Sherman and I don't get the weight complaints. When riding I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want a lighter wheel, it adds stability and traction. The weight has never seemed like a negative when riding. When lifting it sure, but it's totally manageable for me. Depends where you live. I sometimes have to get on public transportation or cross very busy places. (dense city living) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKW Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 49 minutes ago, alcatraz said: Depends where you live. I sometimes have to get on public transportation or cross very busy places. (dense city living) If you're getting the sherman for portability then you're looking at the wrong wheel. In that case, get a more portable wheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMA Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 13 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said: Uhoh, hopefully you don't take the "motor power ratings" seriously?  (The rider feels force, not power...) absolutely not i should have written weight/performance 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 22, 2022 Author Share Posted March 22, 2022 7 hours ago, InfiniteWheelie said: I have the Sherman and I don't get the weight complaints. This is true. No wheel feels heavy while you are riding it. And some weight might be nice to get stability. But you feel the weight when you are not riding, and I wonder if wheels couldn't be a little lighter without any downsides when riding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMA Posted March 22, 2022 Share Posted March 22, 2022 you always feel the weight, it affects dinamics a lot, with time and skill you get used to it but basically is a trade off if you want range and so on . no one will add weight on a wheel to add stability  2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 22, 2022 Author Share Posted March 22, 2022 (edited) Let's try a different approach: If your high-speed, high-range wheel could have any weight you wanted, which weight would that be? So that it still is stable etc. 20kg? 25kg? 30kg? More? Would you want different weights for offroad and on-road riding? Is there a perfect weight for a performance wheel, or does it depend on what you want to use it for? Edited March 22, 2022 by meepmeepmayer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.