Are One Wheels actually (potentially) safer than EUCs?

[RagingGrandpa]

On 2/24/2022 at 2:39 PM, VikB said:

OW is less likely to burn my house to the ground

Bringing any large cobalt-type Lithium pack into your home is a risk - regardless of what device it's being used for.

See below for practical ideas about what to do about it: 
https://forum.electricunicycle.org/tags/fire safety/ 

[Mr Dilkington]

11 hours ago, redsnapper said:

Sorry to hear that - was this the result of a head injury? Was the rider wearing a helmet?

Yes, head injury - no helmet. This is unrelated to the post above about the accident that occurred in Houston. And this is where the OW can lull you into a false sense of security. I mean -- you are only going the speed of a typical school zone here in the US - how bad can a fall be? This was a very experienced rider - 10k+ miles on a OW, and it was just bad luck that caused him to fall the way he did where he did. It was an awful experience. I was about 100 ft behind him when it happened. With an EUC, I think people take gearing up more seriously because of a) the learning curve and b) the power of the wheels.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Mr Dilkington

[Mr Dilkington]

Speaking of OWs catching fire.... In all fairness, this is after it took a bath in a creek, but check out this damage that happened on the way home....

 

[redsnapper]

13 hours ago, Mr Dilkington said:

With an EUC, I think people take gearing up more seriously because of a) the learning curve and b) the power of the wheels.

A fall on pave at 10mph or more (which even the lowest powered PEV can easily reach) & you have a very good chance your head is gonna be involved. Very sad that this guy would still be alive & well had he only been wearing a helmet :-(

[Planemo]

On 2/28/2022 at 4:21 AM, Mr Dilkington said:

I don't necessarily think the OW is a dangerous device if you truly stay within the limits

14 hours ago, Mr Dilkington said:

This was a very experienced rider - 10k+ miles on a OW, and it was just bad luck

So what actually happened? Did the OW tilt back? Did he hit a pothole?

You say that 10k miles makes for a very experienced OW rider, so I am not suggesting that this awful accident was rider error but I can't see any confirmation of what the issue was?

[Mr Dilkington]

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

So what actually happened? Did the OW tilt back? Did he hit a pothole?

You say that 10k miles makes for a very experienced OW rider, so I am not suggesting that this awful accident was rider error but I can't see any confirmation of what the issue was?

It was really just a freak accident - we think. I don’t believe it was the board. The roads we we ride downtown at night aren’t great, and I honestly think he just hit an uneven part of the pavement and it caught him off balance. And to your point, even someone with that much experience can make a slight miscalculation with catastrophic results. 

I know this has gone a bit off topic about the actual safety of OWs, but that incident combined with an accident by my daughter on her Pint (which I couldn’t really explain) led me to switch her to an EUC - which she likes much better anyway. The foot sensor complexity is another piece that creates variables. Temperature, sensitivity, moisture are all factors that can impact the sensors. 
 

And lord knows EUCs aren’t perfect. She had part of an axle bolt sheer off on her v8f that could have really been bad if she were riding it at the time (instead of walking it down stairs). A reminder to periodically make sure your mounting bolts are tight. Apparently that was a known issue from the factory.

[Darrell Wesh]

4 hours ago, redsnapper said:

A fall on pave at 10mph or more (which even the lowest powered PEV can easily reach) & you have a very good chance your head is gonna be involved. Very sad that this guy would still be alive & well had he only been wearing a helmet :-(

If you have neglected your core work. Try and fall backwards on a soft mat and if you can’t keep your head from whip lashing to the ground with your core musculature then you have serious issues, as that (spinal flexion) is its most basic role. 
 

Falling to the side demands active oblique muscles that can contract to hold the head up from touching the ground in a fall. 
 

Increasing your shoulder “broadness” by pull-ups and push-ups is a passive safety feature as well; this causes the shoulder to take a side fall and greatly prevents the chance of the head slamming down. 
 

If people are going to call this hobby a “sport” then we need to start treating it as one with specific exercises to increase our “durability” throughout the sport and performance.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Darrell Wesh

[RooEUC]

22 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

If you have neglected your core work. Try and fall backwards on a soft mat and if you can’t keep your head from whip lashing to the ground with your core musculature then you have serious issues, as that (spinal flexion) is its most basic role. 
 

 

Forward planning an intentional fall onto a soft mat is a completely different thing to unexpectedly being dropped to the ground by cut-out though.  

[RooEUC]

31 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

If people are going to call this hobby a “sport” then we need to start treating it as one with specific exercises to increase our “durability” throughout the sport and performance.

Do many people consider it a sport?  Does sport not usually involve some form of competition? 

[Paul A]

Not sure strong core muscles negates the need to wear a helmet...

Falling backwards is also not the only time when a helmet protects.

Falling forwards into a face plant is but one other possibility, whereby full face helmets are essential.

 

 

[Silverfish]

7 minutes ago, RooMiniPro said:

Forward planning an intentional fall onto a soft mat is a completely different thing to unexpectedly being dropped to the ground by cut-out though.  

skateboarders practice falling so its in their muscle memory. They will skate towards a patch of grass and tumble off at many different angles. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Silverfish

[redsnapper]

1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Try and fall backwards on a soft mat and if you can’t keep your head from whip lashing to the ground with your core musculature then you have serious issues, as that (spinal flexion) is its most basic role. 

I hear you but does anyone ever fall backward off PEV? I have only fallen forward - of course good to practice falling etc but often falls are not anticipated and bottom line if you have no helmet your risk of a life-changing outcome is much higher! brain and spine are the only 2 catastrophic injuries that will really mess up your future (with brain being way more likely sans helmet)...  Tricking around at slow speed in front of your house you can pretty well stay upright if the machine goes down  - but anytime you get up to a speed sans helmet where you cannot stay upright if machine goes down, seems like hubris. I am all for personal freedom but karma can be a bitch for those (and their loved ones) who suffer very avoidable permanent brain damage ;-) And still my wife often tells me to take my helmet cuz I don't wanna - go figure!

[Paradox]

31 minutes ago, redsnapper said:

I hear you but does anyone ever fall backward off PEV?

 

[Tawpie]

49 minutes ago, redsnapper said:

does anyone ever fall backward off PEV?

Learning to ride backwards has put me on my butt three times already—I'm not sure having that skill in my bag is worth it. No way to 'run it out', the legs just don't understand. And on the trails, having the wheel slide out from under you does happen... braking and turning in loose material are the primary culprits.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Tawpie

[RooEUC]

4 hours ago, Paul A said:

Not sure strong core muscles negates the need to wear a helmet...

Falling backwards is also not the only time when a helmet protects.

Falling forwards into a face plant is but one other possibility, whereby full face helmets are essential.

 

I too am not convinced by the strong core muscles comment.  All the crunches in the world may not keep me from hitting my head or helmet on the ground if I fall off an EUC or OneWheel. 

[RooEUC]

3 hours ago, Paradox said:

 

There's a situation in which Marty was lucky about two things: 1. A car didn't hit him.  2. He had friends with him to help.

3 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Learning to ride backwards has put me on my butt three times already—I'm not sure having that skill in my bag is worth it. No way to 'run it out', the legs just don't understand. And on the trails, having the wheel slide out from under you does happen... braking and turning in loose material are the primary culprits.

I hear you on the riding backwards thing.  I gave up on learning that very early on.  It's not a skill I have a use for.

[Darrell Wesh]

23 hours ago, RooMiniPro said:

Forward planning an intentional fall onto a soft mat is a completely different thing to unexpectedly being dropped to the ground by cut-out though.  

You obviously didn’t read my post. I said backwards on a mat. And only as a diagnostic exercise. If your core can’t keep you up from a basic drill like that you have issues.

[Darrell Wesh]

22 hours ago, redsnapper said:

hear you but does anyone ever fall backward off PEV

lol. Really? Literally the 2nd most if not most common way to fall because of wobbles. Look up any wobble video and they’re falling backwards. 

[Darrell Wesh]

23 hours ago, Paul A said:

Not sure strong core muscles negates the need to wear a helmet...

Falling backwards is also not the only time when a helmet protects.

Falling forwards into a face plant is but one other possibility, whereby full face helmets are essential.

 

 

Glute ham eccentrics/Nordic leg curls and ab rollouts are important exercises for a forward fall. If you’re face planting you failed to roll because you stretched your hands out, but that’s another discussion. 
 

Face planting demands strong frontal muscles to slow down the spinal extension as you fall( coupled with the hamstrings), and then strong back muscles to resist your head touching the ground. 

The unfortunate reality is that a helmet will usually negate you from being able to come out of a crash without hitting your head simply because it protrudes too far out for your body to protect that much “dead space” from touching the ground. Not to mention it weighs so much to be at the end of a fulcrum compounding all that weight. 
 

This isn’t to say helmets are bad. They are better protection then strengthening your body obviously. But people get too caught up in trading “helmet scar” photos and  stories and not realizing that in a lot of those situations you would have made it out without touching your head sans helmet.

[.....]

On 3/1/2022 at 12:29 PM, redsnapper said:

I hear you but does anyone ever fall backward off PEV?*

I've fallen off the back about as many times as off the front. I'm an equal opportunity faller, I give every direction a fair shake at it.  It also depends on what you call 'falling'. Quite a few guys decide to eject themselves rather than wait until they have no choice of fall direction. Deciding to 'fall' off the back during high speed wobbles, is not uncommon.

[redsnapper]

24 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I'm an equal opportunity faller

One of the noblest of virtues no doubt!

[RooEUC]

8 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

You obviously didn’t read my post. I said backwards on a mat. And only as a diagnostic exercise. If your core can’t keep you up from a basic drill like that you have issues.

I did read your post.  I don't reply to posts I haven't read.  That would be weird.  As I said, I think planning an intentional fall onto a mat is not the same thing as falling onto concrete from an unexpected EUC cut-out.  Being able to keep one's head off the mat during a planned backwards fall onto a soft mat is not a good indicator that the same person will be able to keep their head or helmet off the ground in the event of a sudden EUC cut-out scenario, in my opinion.  There are some really significant reasons why, such as the surprise element.  When intentionally falling onto a mat, you will be controlling that fall to a greater extent than you might realise, even if you try to pretend you're falling unexpectedly, you aren't, and your brain will try to make your body soften that fall.  You have so much more time to react because you know what's about to happen ahead of time.  Another is the fact that the mat example is happening while standing still where as on an EUC we're traveling forward at speed.  It's almost nothing like crashing an EUC.

I've crashed during motocross plenty of times as well as snowboarding and ice skating too, but fortunately I've never crashed an EUC.  I'm not going to pretend that my level of fitness or experience with other sports is going to make me tougher than anyone else and give me the ability to keep my head off the ground.  If my EUC cuts out some day I fully expect to hit my helmet on the ground - even though it's not a heavy helmet.  I recently fell while skating on a frozen flooded field and hit my lightweight cycling helmet on the ice pretty hard.  The momentum my head carried as my shoulder hit the ice was too much for my neck muscles to overcome and keep it from impact.  I wasn't really hurt but my neck really felt it the day after.

Edited March 3, 2022 by RooMiniPro

[Darrell Wesh]

11 hours ago, RooMiniPro said:

The momentum my head carried as my shoulder hit the ice was too much for my neck muscles to overcome and keep it from impact.  I wasn't really hurt but my neck really felt it the day after.

Jeez I wonder why. Even a minuscule amount of weight placed distally at the end of a limb will effect us significantly more then that same weight being placed more proximally. 3lbs of a helmet on top of having to further compensate for the increased thickness is too much to overcome. 

[Darrell Wesh]

12 hours ago, RooMiniPro said:

I did read your post.  I don't reply to posts I haven't read.  That would be weird.  As I said, I think planning an intentional fall onto a mat is not the same thing as falling onto concrete from an unexpected EUC cut-out.  Being able to keep one's head off the mat during a planned backwards fall onto a soft mat is not a good indicator that the same person will be able to keep their head or helmet off the ground in the event of a sudden EUC cut-out scenario, in my opinion.  There are some really significant reasons why, such as the surprise element.  When intentionally falling onto a mat, you will be controlling that fall to a greater extent than you might realise, even if you try to pretend you're falling unexpectedly, you aren't, and your brain will try to make your body soften that fall.  You have so much more time to react because you know what's about to happen ahead of time.  Another is the fact that the mat example is happening while standing still where as on an EUC we're traveling forward at speed.  It's almost nothing like crashing an EUC.

I've crashed during motocross plenty of times as well as snowboarding and ice skating too, but fortunately I've never crashed an EUC.  I'm not going to pretend that my level of fitness or experience with other sports is going to make me tougher than anyone else and give me the ability to keep my head off the ground. 

Then you’re ignorant. What do you think happens in American football? In rugby? When violent forces often clash/collide with one another. Do you really think you can take a hit if you haven’t strengthened the muscles and core to be prepared for the shock of impacts? Why do you think they keep frail guys from being running back even if they are elusive in kickoff return? Do you really think it’s just the helmet and padding that makes all the difference in bodily protection? Being tackled by a guy weighing 250lbs at 15+mph forwards, backwards, sideways is very much akin to the forces generated crashing on an EUC.

And I’ve said already that falling on a mat is a diagnostic test. A bare minimum that will only expose the worst of the worst in terms of core control. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Darrell Wesh

[Darrell Wesh]

12 hours ago, RooMiniPro said:

There are some really significant reasons why, such as the surprise element.  When intentionally falling onto a mat, you will be controlling that fall to a greater extent than you might realise, even if you try to pretend you're falling unexpectedly, you aren't, and your brain will try to make your body soften that fall.

You really don’t know much and it’s showing, what with your absolute discredit to the human body for its ability in protecting its control center. That’s the goal of the diagnostic test, to see how much you can soften the fall which is directly correlated to how strong your trunk muscles are. The stronger they are the slower you will fall.
 

Being prepared for it is cheating. You can easily tell because you should relax everything until that point of no return when the reflex kicks in. Just simply fall backwards to that point of no return while relaxed and as soon as you reach that point the body will (should) initiate a reflex. As it does not like that sensation. The body will contract everything related to slowing the fall and the stronger you are as I said the slower/softer the descent will be. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Darrell Wesh