New rider with trouble moving forwards

[CrumbsAndYums]

I've just started learning am having trouble deliberately moving forwards. If I hold onto the wall, I can comfortably move the wheel forwards and backwards, but if I'm away from the wall I seem to slow to a crawl and stop.

I'm on a V11 and in case it matters, ~20psi tires in a carpeted hallway. I think the carpet makes my life more difficult, but I'm making do with what I've got as I'm waiting for my safety gear to arrive and I'm not comfortable going outside with the wheel yet.

I've been trying to free mount and glide but what's seems to be happening is that as soon as I lift my non-dominant foot up (placed on pedal or left in the air), I slow to almost a stop (I fall off before then).

The only way I've been able to reliably move forwards is by slightly standing on my tip toes, slightly raise my heel. But I don't believe that's sustainable as it's really fatiguing and the arches of my feet ache after each practice session (20-30mins).

Is there a technique I'm missing or is it a a mental block that I'm facing?

[Mossi]

It's most likely a mental problem which leads to a wrong attitude and just needs a little practice. Ask someone to hold you and move with you over a large open area so that you get a feeling for how your posture influences the movement of the vehicle. Try to bend your knees slightly and don't accidentally position your butt too far back.

[OldFartRides]

Hang yer toes out off the front of the pedals. Also, since you are riding on carpet at low pressure, your wheel is only going to want to go straight. Bump it up to at least thirty.

Best,

[Paul A]

Outdoors might be better.

 

Maybe try having ankles above the center of the pedals.

This will align the body to the center of the wheel.

As OFR says, the toes will probably hang out over the front of the pedals, but that is ok.

It will then be much easier to move a little bit of mass forward of the vertical center line, and have the wheel move forwards.

Can then slightly lean, or just move hips slightly forward etc.

Important to stand up straight, no slouching/crouching, head up, and look forwards towards the horizon.

 

Can also try going to a shopping center car park.

Get a supermarket shopping trolley/cart, and hold onto it in front of you, as if you were pushing it through a supermarket aisle.

It will work like a Zimmer walking frame, except it has wheels, and you won't fall over.

[Hellkitten]

I recently learned to ride a V11 as well. All of the advice just given is sound. You just need to put a little more leverage on the front of your pedals. If you’re interested in reading about my similar experience I have a thread here as well. I got a lot of helpful advice from the members here. It took me a few days to get on and ride a few yards then a couple of weeks to get really comfortable. I’m about a month in now total riding time and I’m loving being able to just bomb around or run errands. Keep at it, it’s a steep learning curve at the beginning. Be stubborn, don’t let your doubts get in the way and you’ll be riding soon. 

[CrumbsAndYums]

Thanks OldFartRides & Paul A, I'll give that a try and report back.

I'll eventually go outdoors when the safety gear arrives... hopefully before Christmas

Hellkitten, I found your thread, I'll read though it.

 

[Silverfish]

I just went through that phase. Then I started launching out of door frames(trapped inside by weather). It allowed me to use my arms to push the wheel back a little. Then when it felt right I would let go while it was still leaning forward a little and try to sustain it as long as I could. Starting with it behind me allowed me to understand what the feeling was like to be leaning forward a bit, and try to emulate that feeling. They key was not pushing off the door frame at all. Just relying on motion from the wheel. 

Now I have a circuit in my basement where I have to travel through 3 door frames. I grade myself on getting from door frame to door frame without putting my foot down or touching the wall. Touching doorframes is allowed. Dismounts deduct more points than stopping at a wall. Dismounts in the middle of the room deduct more points than dismounts near a wall or door. Somewhere along the way acceleration became easy. Now I have to be careful about my walls instead

Edited December 20, 2021 by Silverfish

[CrumbsAndYums]

Update: I've tried increasing the tire pressure and standing further forwards and I'm travelling better now. 70% of the time make it across the hallway (~8m) in a fairly straight line... this is up from 0% from the start of this thread.

Putting my ankles at/near the pedal's centre makes it harder to stop, but it allows me to move faster (brisk walking speed), which in turn makes me more comfortable with moving quicker. And I'm beginning to be able to push through the mental block that's stopping me from leaning forwards.

13 hours ago, Silverfish said:

I just went through that phase. Then I started launching out of door frames(trapped inside by weather). It allowed me to use my arms to push the wheel back a little. Then when it felt right I would let go while it was still leaning forward a little and try to sustain it as long as I could. Starting with it behind me allowed me to understand what the feeling was like to be leaning forward a bit, and try to emulate that feeling. They key was not pushing off the door frame at all. Just relying on motion from the wheel. 

I tried doing the same off a wall but I'd often come to a stop shortly after leaving the wall. My problem was that my body just doesn't want to lean forwards at an angle that puts me off balance. Some reflexes are hard to overcome... especially a lifetime of trying not to fall on my face 🤣

[Tawpie]

18 minutes ago, CrumbsAndYums said:

Some reflexes are hard to overcome... especially a lifetime of trying not to fall on my face

Maybe until your body gets the message, try sticking your arms out zombie style! Keep your knees bent or you'll get bounced off the wheel.

Once you get outside where there isn't an obstacle right in front of you, the mental boundary will be lower and your reflexes will learn to trust the wheel.

[meepmeepmayer]

Pump up your tire!! The max pressure is on the rim. Get close to that. 20 psi is essentially a flat tire.

-

It may help to consciously think about how EUCs work, so you "know what to do" to get it to do the stuff you want it to do.

The only thing that the wheel does is go in the direction (front or back) it is tilted. It goes faster and faster until the tilt goes away (or until it can't speed up any longer, which would be a crash).

And the only thing controlling the tilt is where your center of gravity is - in front of the center of the wheel (you accelerate), over it (you're keeping your speed constant, which may or may not be zero), or behind it (you brake and go backwards eventually).

You can do the following to get an intuition. Forget the wheel, just stand on the ground how you would stand on the wheel. In a rigid position. Would you fall over forward (so you have to take a step forward to catch yourself)? Then, on the wheel, you would be accelerating. Are you stable and in balance, not falling over in any direction? Then, on the wheel, you would do nothing to change your speed. Would you fall over backwards? Then, on the wheel, you would brake.

So just lean forwards (you will see you have to take a step forward right away, or you would fall on your face), this is how you speed up. Or just "sit down" (like into a chair) and you will see you would fall on your ass unless you take a step backwards, this is how you brake*.

If you do those stances on the wheel, you don't need to take a step, because it catches you - that's the "self-balancing" part of "self-balancing electric unicycle". You don't have to re-balance your center of gravity, the wheel does it for you.

The important thing is: if you try a stance on the ground and you don't fall over, this stance does exactly nothing when you do it on the wheel.  Specifically, if you don't fall over forward, you would not start going from standstill this way. (Some people try a ski stance - bend the knees, but in a balanced position so they would not fall over-  and then wonder why they don't accelerate when doing the same on the wheel.)

Then get on the wheel with the help of a wall/pole. Repeat your stances, learn to accelerate/brake, and get a feel for how it works before you learn to step on the wheel without support (because this is much harder than riding on the wheel itself, so do the easy thing first).

-

Other than that, don't be afraid to do a strong acceleration (strong and brisk forward lean) to quickly get to a reasonably fast speed. Faster = more stable. You need enough space for that, so go outside. This also stops you from ruining your walls or furniture

-

* This is how you know the following is a great emergency braking technique: bend the knees and let yourself fall back, then straighten the legs almost like you would jump backwards. On the wheel, this will induce a rapid backwards tilt, which means a rapid deceleration.

Edited December 20, 2021 by meepmeepmayer

[Paul A]

Has the wheel been calibrated with a spirit level?

[Paul A]

Could try the strap idea.

Not sure if training wheels are still around.

[Tawpie]

15 minutes ago, Paul A said:

 

dang...

 

it's actually so easy! Huh. Maybe being upside down makes it easier than here on the northern hemisphere? Give y'all better balance?

[Paul A]

Don't know TP, but training wheels probably would make it much easier.

Supermarket trolley makes it quite easy too.

Experience with skiing, roller blading, ice skating, etc would also make it easier to adapt.

Should be able to produce a laterally self balancing wheel as well, like motorcycles have.

[longjohnsally]

Get off the carpet!!!  I started out on grass and it was miserable.  As soon as I got onto pavement it all worked SO much better. Just find yourself a good wall or fence to lean on until you get more comfortable. Your wheel will actually respond to your commands on firm ground.  Raising your tire pressure will absolutely make your learning experience much much better as well.  Most people I know use a pressure of 30-40psi depending on their wheel, riding style, and weight.  I weigh 210 lbs, ride an RS19, and use 36 psi.  Most people I know use 30-35psi.  If you ride a Sherman, you might want to try a sub 30psi.   Just make sure to gear up so you're protected when you fall.  

[rcgldr]

Foot placement - two slight variations in what the experts mention in their how to ride videos. 1 - feet centered so front of toes and rear of heels are equal distant from pedal edges, 2 - feet centered so center of ball of feet and center of heel of feet are equal distant from pedal edges, which turns out to only be about 6 mm or 1/4 inch forwards of front of toes and rear of heels equal distant, so essentially the same. If your feet are too far forwards or too far backwards, control of the EUC becomes more difficult.

Acceleration and braking - focus on leaning forwards | backwards in order to accelerate | decelerate the EUC rather than pressure on the pedals. It's a combination of tilt input and the self-balancing logic that results in accelerating or braking. Technically to lean forwards, you initially press down with your heels (the same as if you were standing on solid ground), which moves the contact patch behind your center of mass, leaning you forwards, and triggering the EUC's balance mode, then once leaned forwards, you press with your toes to limit or stop the lean (which accelerates the EUC forwards back under your center of mass). It's the same idea for decelerating, initial push with toes, then push with heels. Again, you don't need to think about the foot pressure, just focus on leaning forwards and backwards.

Learn to ride before learning to free mount - this is the advice from Kuji Roll and Wrong Way. Wrong Way mentions in his video that his girlfriend MonoKat rode for a total of 60 to 80 km before attempting to free mount, which wasn't an issue since she already knew how to ride. My experience was the same. It may not be a faster way to learn, but it is less tiring since free mount after every bail is more tiring than using support to mount and launch, and with a supported mount, you can look down with support and not moving to position your feet, then look ahead (not down) when launching.

To launch, rock back and forth, and while leaning forwards, release (don't push), so that you accelerate a bit. Example from Kuji Roll's video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6o8ZMlo5ko&t=379s

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by rcgldr

[CrumbsAndYums]

If only my experience has been as easy as that video. With a higher tire pressure and a more forwards foot position, I'm now reliably free mounting and riding the entre length of the hallway in a straight line, and coming to a controlled stop at the end. Now it's just waiting for my safety gear so that I can go outside with more space to practice & learn other skills like turning XD

On 12/21/2021 at 11:24 AM, Tawpie said:

it's actually so easy! Huh. Maybe being upside down makes it easier than here on the northern hemisphere? Give y'all better balance?

Can confirm, you are forced to get better balance when the fauna is trying to kill you.

 

On 12/21/2021 at 9:31 AM, meepmeepmayer said:

...
You can do the following to get an intuition. Forget the wheel, just stand on the ground how you would stand on the wheel. In a rigid position. Would you fall over forward (so you have to take a step forward to catch yourself)? Then, on the wheel, you would be accelerating. Are you stable and in balance, not falling over in any direction? Then, on the wheel, you would do nothing to change your speed. Would you fall over backwards? Then, on the wheel, you would brake.
...

Despite knowing that's how it's supposed to work, it's taken me a while to overcome the fear of leaning forwards. Btw, thanks for the braking tip. I'll try that when I finally get some speed.

 

On 12/21/2021 at 10:17 AM, Paul A said:

Has the wheel been calibrated with a spirit level?

Nope. Is that something that needs to be done out of the box? Everything "feels" level as far as my noob senses can tell.

[Paul A]

Could try placing one spirit level horizontally onto a pedal, and another spirit level vertically against the side of wheel, use tape if needed to hold in place.

Move wheel to have bubbles aligned to calibrate.

The app will have the feature to calibrate the wheel.

[CrumbsAndYums]

Are you saying that I should be holding it level on the pitch and roll axis and run the calibration process from the inmotion app? I should be able to do that.

[Paul A]

Yes, pitch and roll axis.

Yaw axis would be nonsensical.

[meepmeepmayer]

The wheel works the same whether it is calibrated ultra super level or not. So unless you feel it is not as level as you want it to be, no need to calibrate.

But of course a calibration doesn't hurt either, and you can calibrate it to some non-level state if a certain pedal tilt is the most comfortable neutral position for you.

[rcgldr]

11 hours ago, CrumbsAndYums said:

Despite knowing that's how it's supposed to work, it's taken me a while to overcome the fear of leaning forwards.

That is one of the reasons for rocking back and forth with support (hand on wall | rail | post): for some riders to trust the EUC isn't going to let them fall forwards or backwards. For other riders that do trust the EUC, it's done to get used to how an EUC responds.

Once you get your safety gear ...

I just turned 70. I received my V8F on August 1, 2021, and have 330 miles on it now. Before deciding to buy and while waiting for the V8F to arrive, I watched a few how to ride videos and some other videos. In Kuji Roll's and Wrong Way's videos, they recommend learning to ride first using support to mount and launch, then learn free mount (no support) last, since you'll already know how to ride, and just need to step 1 or 2 times and hop on.

 

In my case, I first used arm flailing (flail left to steer right and vice versa) to steer into fall and to direct the V8F at 3 to 5 mph. This seems instinctive for some, and in my case, I was able to do laps around a tennis court on my first try. This 3 year old kid is using the arm flailing method:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9YiHu5HJ6o

 

Since I could do laps (somewhat better than the 3 year old kid), I moved to a long straight where I could still use support for mount and launch and found my V8F to become stable at 6 to 8 mph, where I didn't have to focus on balance. Leaning forwards | backwards for speed control was instinctive. I then worked on tilt steering (move inner foot down, outer foot up), to see how the V8F would respond. After a couple of passes I weaved side to side and after a few more passes, did large radius turns.

 

This dog is able to ride at a reasonably stable speed:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBtSQHT3CCo

 

Now that I could ride (somewhat better than the dog), I went to a soccer field to learn free mount, my only time on grass, which wasn't an issue since I could already ride. That allowed me to ride at other locations, including a bike trail with lots of turns and mild declines and inclines. Inmotion EUC's will try to maintain speed and will auto-lean the rider for inclines and declines with virtually no rider input. I don't know about other brands.

 

Tilt steering involved learning to coordinate how much to body lean with how much to tilt steer, based on speed and turning radius. I got better at my initial inputs, and over time my foot movements became mostly reflexive.

Edited December 23, 2021 by rcgldr

[rcgldr]

On 12/20/2021 at 4:17 PM, Paul A said:

Has the wheel been calibrated with a spirit level?

 

12 hours ago, CrumbsAndYums said:

Nope. Is that something that needs to be done out of the box? Everything "feels" level as far as my noob senses can tell.

Pedal tilt, within reason, is a rider preference thing. Once you get your gear and can go out riding, you can ride the EUC, stop, turn it 180 degrees so it's "backwards", and ride again (you are still riding forwards, but with the EUC turned backwards). If the pedals feel the same both ways, it's close to zero pedal tilt angle. On my V8F, I have zero actual pedal tilt (I had to set it to +1 degree to get zero actual tilt) and 100% pedal sensitivity, commuter mode. The 100% pedal sensitivity keeps the pedals stiff and level, so it feels like standing on the ground, as opposed to having the pedals tilt forward or backwards. Commuter mode supposedly reduces the response rate somewhat (so it takes a bit longer or more effort to lean forwards | backwards), but at 100% pedal sensitivity on the V8F, I don't feel a difference, and I set it to commuter mode instead of off-road mode, since I'm not riding off-road. Maybe off-road setting is better for handling bumps or pot-holes.

Inmotion EUC do have a calibration mode to remedy pedal dip (tilt forwards) that may occur when turning. You hold the kill switch and rotate the V11 onto it's front bumper, so the front bumper and tire are on a level surface (you can release the kill switch now), then use the calibrate feature in the Inmotion app.

Edited December 23, 2021 by rcgldr

[Tawpie]

The only caution with having out of level pedals is there is some chance that “bouncing”, can make the wheel think there’s a sudden acceleration request. Not saying it’ll cause a cutout, but I had mystery overcurrent alarms on my S18 when bouncing on the pedals. Turns out the wheel was 3 degrees out of calibration so when I landed back on the pedals I was actually asking for a burst of power. Recalibrating the wheel solved the issue.

[CrumbsAndYums]

Thanks all! I think I'm getting the hang of this now. I found a comfortable foot position and can accelerate and decelerate without too much trouble. I think I'm a little slow shifting my weight but I guess it'll get better with practice.

 

On 12/21/2021 at 9:31 AM, meepmeepmayer said:

* This is how you know the following is a great emergency braking technique: bend the knees and let yourself fall back, then straighten the legs almost like you would jump backwards. On the wheel, this will induce a rapid backwards tilt, which means a rapid deceleration.

Thanks for this tip. I've been practicing this on relatively slow speeds (8-10km/h) and it works a treat!

 

On 12/24/2021 at 11:36 AM, Tawpie said:

The only caution with having out of level pedals is there is some chance that “bouncing”, can make the wheel think there’s a sudden acceleration request. Not saying it’ll cause a cutout, but I had mystery overcurrent alarms on my S18 when bouncing on the pedals. Turns out the wheel was 3 degrees out of calibration so when I landed back on the pedals I was actually asking for a burst of power. Recalibrating the wheel solved the issue.

Do I risk having the same issue if I adjusted the pedals to tilt forwards via an app? I've been playing around and been finding that adjusting it to 1 or 2 degrees forwards seem to be a little more comfortable in some situations for me (undecided if I'll keep it that way).

Edited December 26, 2021 by CrumbsAndYums