Inmotion V13 Speculation

[Clem604]

8 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I have 1,200 mi on mine and it isn't the least bit sticky or stiff. At what point does this happen?

I have 3100 miles now on my V11 and the suspension now has a little bit of stiction  and squeaks sometimes but nothing too major. I've never ridden my V11 in the rain if that matters.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

1 minute ago, Clem604 said:

now has a little bit of stiction  and squeaks sometimes but nothing too major

Interesting, is there a fix for it?

[techyiam]

2 minutes ago, Clem604 said:

I've never ridden my V11 in the rain if that matters.

That should matter, especially if you ride in November in Vancouver, with all the foliage on the road too.

If you don't ride in the rain, aren't you riding mostly in the summer months?

[UPONIT]

Re: the Euco unboxing video... Within minutes, he has it out and hops on and does some pendulum work and little arcs. On carpet!

I mean, yes, it is Law Laxina doing the tossing, so mere mortals won't be as good at it, but that's still impressive nimbleness for such a tall, heavy wheel, yes?

Edited December 16, 2022 by UPONIT
clarity

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

1 hour ago, UPONIT said:

I find it helpful to calculate amperage at max nominal motor wattage, convert battery Wh to Ah, and see how many minutes the motor could run at full throttle.

 

I would find it easier to read in wh.

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

1 hour ago, UPONIT said:

Sherman - S = 30A, 34Ah = 68 minutes

 

The previous comments showed the battery is less than 3500 wh. The sherman-s 3500w nominal. Therefor less than 60 minutes.

[LowFlyingSquirrel]

12 hours ago, UPONIT said:

Sherman - S = 30A, 34Ah = 68 minutes

V13 = 35.7A, 24Ah = 41 minutes

I have a spreadsheet (yes, nerd) of this calculation and others (like equiv HP, etc.) on e-bikes, eucs and scooters I've been interested in, and the longest (theoretical) runtime at 100% throttle of all the PEVs is actually the Sherman - S., which is very interesting. It even beat the Master Pro, at 64 minutes. (Counting only PEVs with motors above 1kW).

I realize that real-world range includes a ton of other factors, but this at least lets me get fairly close to a numbers-only comparison.

I think it is also helpful to consider the speed differences. The V13 with 5 kw nominal, could require 4.3 kw to sustain its 90 km/h top speed. Sherman-s with 3.5 kw nominal, could require 2.5 kw to sustain its 75 km/h top speed.

Edited December 17, 2022 by LowFlyingSquirrel

[Clem604]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

That should matter, especially if you ride in November in Vancouver, with all the foliage on the road too.

If you don't ride in the rain, aren't you riding mostly in the summer months?

I don't ride when its actively raining but I've ridden the wheel when the ground has been wet, though I typically don't. I will ride whenever its dry out summer or winter. I figure when the stiction gets bad enough I will just have Eevees tear it down to clean and lube all the things.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Clem604

[Clem604]

1 hour ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Interesting, is there a fix for it?

I'm sure a clean and lube would help on the sliders but I can't confirm as I haven't done that yet

[Punxatawneyjoe]

12 minutes ago, Clem604 said:

I'm sure a clean and lube would help on the sliders

I was just looking at the parts list and the sliders are $35 each. If they get sticky i will just replace them. Also i will be tearing mine down soon for a tire change and will update everyone on the slider condition and the condition of other suspension parts. Thanks for the reply.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

Just out of curiosity i messaged e-wheels and asked them where i was on the list for getting the v-13 and to my surprise about 6 minutes later i got an e-mail from Jason saying i will be part of batch 2. I proceeded to thank him for his super fast response and got another response within 2 minutes. That would have to be about the best customer service i have ever experienced. Looking forward to future e-wheel business.

[Uras]

16 hours ago, techyiam said:

I think smartwheel.ca unboxing video confirms the raising of the bar for build quality by the V13, especially if one looks at the smaller details.

Even something as simple as the pedal rod, it is more intricate than on your typical wheel. Notice the pedal rod is not just a simple round rod. 

On the V12, the pedal rod is a round rod with a flat side. That rod has a matching profile bore in the pedal hanger. Moreover, the bore in the pedals is coated with a very durable rubber coating. It is a tight fit between the pedal rod and the pedal bore. As a result, the pedal bore as well as a portion of the pedal rod is protected from corrosion. Plus, the pedals doesn't have play nor does it flop up and down. As well, it provides a little cushioning from vibrations.

The V13 version seems to be even more advanced. 

It could be a tough call between the V13 and the Sherman-S for speedy urban commuting. 

 

I don't see any of those changes as good. Well, a round rod with a flat side is quite common and a simple design - that's nice. The rubber coating - no matter how durable the spiel claims - sounds like future looseness. And not very far into the future. Simple designs are much easier to repair / replace and are generally stronger.

More complex doesn't necessarily mean better. I would rate toughness and reliability much more. For example, these wheels are much heavier; the heavier the wheel the more impact / shock resistance it needs. It isn't just greater mass, but greater mass at greater speed. It seems that this has been given some consideration with sherman s and it's magnesium alloy shell for example. 

The extra hall sensor that inmotion are using is a great feature implemented through experience. This is a simple change that should help prevent cut outs. The extra mosfets employed by both inmotion and sherman s also sound like a great change towards safety - another relatively simple change. High gauge wires, heat distributing mounting media, fans, waterproofing - get the basics right. These are changes which impress me more than complexity.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Uras

[Tawpie]

18 minutes ago, Uras said:

This is a simple change that should help prevent cut outs.

It might help prevent cutouts that are caused by a failed hall sensor, but that's it!

[UPONIT]

2 hours ago, LowFlyingSquirrel said:

The comparison isn't very useful unless you're considering the speed differences. The V13 with 5 kw nominal, could require 4.3 kw to sustain its 90 km/h top speed. Sherman-s with 3.5 kw nominal, could require 2.5 kw to sustain its 75 km/h top speed.

It's useful to me because so much about "range" depends on unavoidable variables like rider weight, temperature outside, stop/go, regen breaking, etc. etc. etc.

But what I can compare with some objectivity is: If I take the motor of THIS vehicle and run it at its full speed, how long will it go for?

That might imitate a heavy rider at mid speed, or a medium rider going up a 45 deg incline. Whatever the case, the motor giving everything it is theoretically capable of. how many minutes could it go? My bike is like 59 minutes, but of course the motor hardly spends any time at max, and the bike coasts downhill a lot. So i get many many miles and many hours. But it is proportionally accurate to my other PEVs.

What more objective measure of "range" aka "work capacity" is there? I would love to know of other ways to objectively compare.

It's the most objective way I can think of to get a rough comparison...

[Uras]

2 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

It might help prevent cutouts that are caused by a failed hall sensor, but that's it!

well, yes. Just like extra mosfets reduce an amperage bottleneck, as do higher gauge wires etc, and mounting media that helps dissipate heat build up. Each is a small change on it's own, but even then can mean the difference of avoiding a failure. Fix all the little things...

[UPONIT]

3 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

It might help prevent cutouts that are caused by a failed hall sensor, but that's it!

I'm gonna believe that InMotion put as much effort into over-engineering as it did into build-quality, fit/finish etc. Until proven otherwise.

[HEC]

5 hours ago, UPONIT said:

Just seeing them in the flesh... it is a good looking wheel.

Inmotion is well known for gorgeous, slim, great looking an most of all safe wheels. I rode over 10.000 Km on V8, 1.300 Km on V12-HT so far and I hope to ride tens of thousands Km on V13 as well. Everywhere I go, all those gorgeous wheels still attracts attention on daily basis. 

[MrMonoWheel]

5 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I have 1,200 mi on mine and it isn't the least bit sticky or stiff. At what point does this happen?

Mine started knocking and getting sticky around 400 miles. I'd clean out the rails and sliders and it would be good for a week or two before slowly starting to get sticky again. It happens so slowly you don't notice it until you ride a properly working one. I've tried running dry, ptfe lube, graphite powder, all of them help for the first week or so and then it's like before.

My buddy just got a v11 and his already squeaks like hell and is a bit sticky.

[UPONIT]

38 minutes ago, HEC said:

Inmotion is well known for gorgeous, slim, great looking an most of all safe wheels. I rode over 10.000 Km on V8, 1.300 Km on V12-HT so far and I hope to ride tens of thousands Km on V13 as well. Everywhere I go, all those gorgeous wheels still attracts attention on daily basis. 

And this one is GORGEOUS. Video (especially harsh lighting) doesn't do it justice. The composite shell is much darker than it looks in video. And the orange is a rich, reddish orange, not a neon glaring orange. Very... luxurious? The sherman s has a high potential for having that "oomph" also, but I may never see it in person...

6 hours ago, MrMonoWheel said:

Just wanted to pop in and mention that the issue isn't really with the air pistons and dampers, it's with the slider-on-rail design if the suspension itself that causes it to get stiff and sticky after a short time. 

I know you left this thread high and dry but did you happen to watch the EUCO unboxing? Highlights you might be interested in: Law says the Sherman bottoms out but has smoother travel. V13 doesn't bottom out. He says he loves it and will buy it. He says V11 has smoothest suspension of any wheel he's been on to this day . He said not as much torgue as quickly as Master Pro. He also gets it off the ground jumping from standing still. No pedal dip.

Those are the Cliff's Notes. I wish you could see it in person before you cancel your order. It's like an Audi interior turned to the outside.

Edited December 17, 2022 by UPONIT
Orange is the new black.

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, UPONIT said:

What more objective measure of "range" aka "work capacity" is there? I would love to know of other ways to objectively compare.

It's called Watt-hour (Wh) and it's literally a measurement of the energy content (dare I call that "work capacity") of the battery

-

I honestly have no idea what motor wattage numbers are supposed to mean and how the manufacturers come up with that number. They have used different numbers for the same motor, so maybe it's the theoretical throughput of the motor+board combination? But then shouldn't they be higher? Continuous throughput?

My issue is: a "better" motor (more watts, whatever they mean) would give a worse result because you can use it to empty the battery faster (can you?). So until the manufacturers tell us how they come up with the motor wattages, I'm not convinced that battery size/motor power is an overly meaningful number. But who knows, maybe it is? If it works, it works.

I'm staying with "More Wh = more range", and everything else (e.g. efficiency differences) is second tier to that.

Let's do the (pessimistic for the ShermaS) math:

Sherman-S: 192 cells * 3.6V * 4.9mAh per cell = 3386.9Wh

V13: 240 cells * 3.6V * 3500mAh per cell = 3024Wh.

That gives +12% to the Sherman-S, and so I'm expecting it to have 12% more range than the V13.

What does the motor power comparison predict here? (I don't know the motor wattages for either wheel.)

Edited December 17, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[UPONIT]

1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said:

It's called Watt-hour (Wh) and it's literally a measurement of the energy content (dare I call that "work capacity") of the battery

-

I honestly have no idea what motor wattage numbers are supposed to mean and how the manufacturers come up with that number. They have used different numbers for the same motor, so maybe it's the theoretical throughput of the motor+board combination? But then shouldn't they be higher? Continuous throughput?

My issue is: a "better" motor (more watts, whatever they mean) would give a worse result because you can use it to empty the battery faster (can you?). So I'm not convinced that battery size/motor power is an overly meaningful number. But who knows, maybe it is? If it works, it works.

I'm staying with "More Wh = more range", and everything else (e.g. efficiency differences) is second tier to that.

Let's do the (pessimistic for the ShermaS) math:

Sherman-S: 192 cells * 3.6V * 4.9mAh per cell = 3386.9Wh

V13: 240 cells * 3.6V * 3500mAh per cell = 3024Wh.

That gives +12% to the Sherman-S, and so I'm expecting it to have 12% more range than the V13.

What does the motor power comparison predict here? (I don't know the motor wattages for either wheel.)

According to my (apparently flawed ) reasoning, the Sherman S could run full out (3000W) for 68 minutes. The V13 could run full wattage (4500) for 41 minutes. Speed and all the rest is a crap shoot, as is actual range because of the plethora of factors that affect it...

[UPONIT]

5 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I have 1,200 mi on mine and it isn't the least bit sticky or stiff. At what point does this happen?

Law Laxina is a big fan of the V11 suspension apparently. Maybe the issue is one of use/abuse/durability? It might not be meant for heavy gravel, dirt, sand, extreme dust usage or just extreme usage in general. Also, you never know how much or little people actually maintain their suspensions. Aluminum is VERY hard to restore to smooth after injury. (On aluminum hose fittings, and other threaded parts, a couple grains of sand can ruin the whole show...)

Maybe you have taken more care with use, maintained better than others?

[KiwiMark]

45 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

According to my (apparently flawed ) reasoning, the Sherman S could run full out (3000W) for 68 minutes. The V13 could run full wattage (4500) for 41 minutes. Speed and all the rest is a crap shoot, as is actual range because of the plethora of factors that affect it...

Sherman-s: 3,000W nominal, peak wattage is higher.  V13: 4,500W nominal, peak wattage is higher.

I'm unsure of how long either would run at max nominal wattage before overheating would be an issue, I doubt either is designed to run continuously at such a high power output.  The batteries would probably handle it even the V13 at 1.5C output, I'd be more concerned about the mainboard/speed controller/MOS-FETs/etc.

[MrMonoWheel]

Instead of comparing the two based on the max continuous wattage they can pull, why not pick an average wattage that would be sustained in the real world and use that? Wouldn't just normal cruising usage draw roughly the same amount of watts per wheel?

[techyiam]

7 hours ago, Uras said:

I don't see any of those changes as good. Well, a round rod with a flat side is quite common and a simple design - that's nice. The rubber coating - no matter how durable the spiel claims - sounds like future looseness. And not very far into the future. Simple designs are much easier to repair / replace and are generally stronger.

You can rely on your speculation to influence your decision, that is your freedom of choice.

Inmotion did not do a Chinese knockoff of a Chinese product. That pedal rod design and actually durability turned out to be fantastic. That rubber coating is indeed super tough. Just think about it, aluminium rubbing on steel, not ideal. The pedal play on my T3 got worse with time at an alarming rate. Meanwhile, on the V12, it has no wear. Inmotion did a great job on this part. That is for sure.

It fact, it worked so well, I applied a rubber coating to the T3 pedal bores, and to the spike pedals I now have on my V12. Additionally, I rubber coated the bores of my stock Abrams pedals too (mind you, on the Abrams, it has a separate spring-loaded mechanism to mitigate pedal flop. But it looks like it may not be that durable. Me thinks the V12 design is superior.)   No play, no up and down slop, and no wear. And it gives it a more premium feel too. What not to like?

Edited December 17, 2022 by techyiam