Inmotion V13 Speculation

[conecones]

On 4/11/2023 at 3:15 AM, Eyss said:

I found that 50/50 acceleration/ braking assistant works best for city riding, where you need to stop and start often. 

100/100 worked well on the track. 

Light works very well. Haven't had the desire to supplement it with a torch yet. It is annoying though that the brake light is not always on and only comes on after turning the front light on. 

FYI pedal stiffness is a factor as well. 50/50 assist = turning off assist. 100% Pedal stiffness + 0/0 assist gives the more solid pedals.

How well the light works is directly related to pedal settings. Personally at 80% pedal stiffness and no assist, the lights dip too low on acceleration to be useful at night. I still need the hand held flashlight.

On 4/11/2023 at 3:15 AM, Eyss said:

I don't find it to be super stable at speed and the Sherman / hero feels much more planted. Could be that I've spent at least 10x longer on them but I feel like the weight + height means any issues that come up are much harder to overcome. 

I also have issues going above 50kph. It just requires so much more effort to push it once it hits there. It's probably a mental block as I never ride above 50 anyway. 

A lot of reviewers commented that they'll look down and realise they're going much faster than expected but I haven't experienced that. 

 

Stock tire is very stiff and tends to track road imperfections - which a little strange as most knobbies do not. I recommend sitting as much as possible.

Maintaining a higher speed comfortably requires pedal tilt adjustment. 2 degrees pointing down is the minimum IMO. If you can get used to 4 degrees + seated riding once you sit down and put some weight on the front of pedals + push a little on the bars you will easily hold 65+km/h on flat ground without much effort/leaning. However the headlight becomes even more useless at night.

[conecones]

29 minutes ago, novazeus said:

i'm just referring to the racket the wheel makes going down the stairs. she's a far superior rider to me, which isn't saying much. i ride very plainly. starts and stopping. i can barely freemount because i don't have to and hate practicing it. i'm certainly no wheel expert. 

i know trying 250psi was wrong when i first stepped on the wheel, and the winds were 25mph with higher gusts according to the weather channel, but since i was experimenting, i did do two up and backs concentrating on these two depressions running perpendicular to my road, and weirdly enough, they felt the same as when i had it at 125psi. and yeah, i was referring to the slider adjustment that i was surprised actually needed adjustment. one side quite a bit, the other side not so much. my 250psi experiment was to eliminate any suspicion of it bottoming out. i know it's not doing that now. if anybody has any advice on setting the suspension softer for me, just my road, no jumps, curbs, stairs, etc, just tree roots and depressions, please do tell. once i get there, then i'll probably drop down to 35psi on the michelin tire and i'm sure it will be a piece of cake to ride then. like when i ride the s22.

Evidenced by all the V13's ridden by fellow riders and my personal one, there's nothing wrong with the V13 suspension if you set it up right. Emphasis on IF. The two main concerns are:
1. Damper rods MUST have the bottom retaining cap screwed tightly to the body of the damper, BEFORE installing into the sliders. Mine came with one side not done properly and I would lose air on that damper going over potholes. This lead to over-compensating by adding more air into the shocks before I realized what was going on.
2. Slider rail gap adjustment as shown in Marty's videos. This is on the manual but many people forget this if they haven't owned a V11. All the clunking noises you hear is from this issue. Once tightened, no clunks.

Feel free to continue simping for youraubsome and wrongway but also accept that there are much better sources of technical information - if that's what you're looking for. I suggest keep practicing how to ride before getting to deep into the weeds on technical aspects of the wheel. The human body can manage very complicated calculations without the brain understanding the mathematical proofs - ex. kids at age 3 understand the parabolic motion of throwing & catching a ball many years before learning mathematical equations. Maybe after another 10 wheels you'll figure out free-mounting and then begin to understand concepts that @mrelwoodhas been patiently trying to explain. 

[rcgldr]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

And that’s what happened with your wheel as well when you were trolleying it up an incline. The motor put out the exact amount of torque that was required to keep itself upright. It didn’t “help” you push it up the incline, since that would’ve meant giving up on it’s main job as a self-balancing vehicle.

When trolleying an EUC up an incline, the user generates the same amount of torque onto the EUC as the motor exerts onto the wheel + tire. Since the end of the trolley handle is further from the axle than the contact patch of the tire, there is more leverage (radius) and  less force at the trolley handle versus the force it would take to push the EUC up an incline. The longer the trolley handle, the less force it would take. So in this case the EUC is self-balancing and "helping" the user trolley it up an incline.

Edited April 12, 2023 by rcgldr

[novazeus]

6 minutes ago, conecones said:

1. Damper rods MUST have the bottom retaining cap screwed tightly to the body of the damper, BEFORE installing into the sliders. Mine came with one side not done properly and I would lose air on that damper going over potholes. This lead to over-compensating by adding more air into the shocks before I realized what was going on.

is this what u are referring to? mine had the same exact problem and thanks to frank's video, i fixed it before riding.

i did the adjustment as well, yesterday i think, but the rattle is still present. nothing like the issue marty had, only one side was loose. might fix the clunk i sometimes would get rarely on one of my 2300 starts so far.

would u mind sharing ur weight, tire pressure, type of tire, and suspension settings if u are please with the softness of the ride. 

6 minutes ago, conecones said:

Slider rail gap adjustment as shown in Marty's videos. This is on the manual but many people forget this if they haven't owned a V11. All the clunking noises you hear is from this issue. Once tightened, no clunks.

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by novazeus

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

i already posted a followup link on the people testing 15 different air pumps, and the pressure at 80psi, much lower than 250psi, were actually all lower.

I didn’t see anything related to the pressure getting lower when detaching the pump. The dials are inaccurate, that’s expected. But losing pressure when detaching is a completely separate matter. The connectors in shock pumps are different from tire pumps, because it is important not to loose the pressure when detaching. So the connectors are all designed that way, be it a 2-step activation valve or a simple single step one.

 

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

that's what ustride said on facebook.

Yeahhh… Well, he can have just as many misconceptions as anybody. Who knows, maybe he was just passing a rumor he heard. That really doesn’t have any of the weight of an announcement from Inmotion.

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

nope, like i said, one side was fairly snug, one side was looser for some reason. yeah, friction but no stiction.

I’m still not yet sure if your sliders are adjusted optimally. If you tightened the screws until the screw’s themselves felt tighter, they were probably already too tight. How have you come to the conclusion that there is no friction/stiction from the sliders?

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

what do u think is causing that noise is on ur v11? and when traveling down stairs

The V11 doesn’t have a damper, so the air spring is free to push the suspension to the upper end (practically) inhibited. When it meets the end position, there is a hard rubber stopper that makes the klunking sound. But that is when the suspension is fully extended, not compressed. I usually don’t ride down stairs or jump down tall curbs, so I avoid that noise. But whenever I do, the noise is always there when the suspension is free to extend all the way.

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

that can be done without taking the wheel apart?

Yes. It will of course be much more effective if you get to wax the slider rails all the way, because there are slider guides higher up as well. But just waxing the part that is visible when nobody’s standing on the wheel, already does a lot of good.

 

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

how much do u weigh and how much does ur wheel weigh and what is the tire pressure.

105kg, 27kg, 2.0bars (depending on the tire),

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

ure in ur tire in relation to the sidewall pressure at its maximum load carrying weight?

Seems like there is some text missing. But I don’t know what the max load rating or the max pressure on my tire is, because I don’t care. I can feel if a tire is not behaving correctly. You can check them up if you want, it’s a Heidenau K66 Snowtex 80/90-14.

 

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

could u be more specific about how to do that? do u mean start with no air pressure in the shocks and turning the damper all the way counter clockwise so there is no  dampening?

No no no, you start with the shock pressure you currently have. You only adjust the dampers (although it might not even be necessary at this point). Then you measure the sag. Then you inflate or deflate the shocks a bit, depending on which one will get you closer to a 30% sag. Once you’re at 30% sag, memorize the pressure you put on the shocks, and from that point forward only ever pump to that pressure. And check them every now and then, always pumping up to your memorized pressure.

 Only then start with the test track and the damper adjustments.

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

aren't there springs inside those tubes?

No. They are air shocks. They only have air in them.

 

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

are u referring to the pro or the aftermarket sliders.

Aftermarket ones. I have only tried riding the S22 with stock ones and aftermarket roller prototypes. But from what I’ve read, KS hasn’t been able to manufacture functioning roller sliders themselves either.

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

if maintenance is require ie taking the wheel apart every 500 miles, no thank you.

Why do/would the roller sliders require maintenance every 500 miles?

 

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

yeah, i never asked or cared about a thank u either for pointing out the underrated tires that euc manufacturers put on wheels years ago.

Haven’t heard of them ever having a problem with anyone because of the load rating though.

 

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

but i did not know it was absolutely zero pressure when disconnecting.

Like I said, as long as a 2-step valve connector is being used in a correct manner. And expecting either  connector to be working correctly of course.

4 hours ago, novazeus said:

idk why they don't have similar fittings on tire pumps

Because of the said air volume ratio. A regular tire pump is easy to remove in a way that doesn’t lose any noticeable amount of pressure.

[novazeus]

so i don't have to type this again, this is the email i just sent jacob nelson, the owner of neltrek evolution:

heading'

from worse to first!

God bless u my brother!

this suspension thing was driving me crazy!

i never even thought about consulting with u, because normal dealers never ever respond to real problems. like freemotion and not even tina wong with king song with the "error 27" i had with the s22. still have no conclusive reason why that happened. 

but ur advice, and riding the exact same wheel as me, minus the yoga mat, omg, i would have never thought the air pressure would be so critical. 

i had tried 175 and then 125. and still wasn't right, but since ur a tad bit heavier than me, i put it at 140 using the s18 pump with the bigger dial, and the rebound damper was at 2 turns out from full counterclockwise, but i went full counterclockwise and back out clockwise two turns, just to make sure, and even though it's storming here, i got in 2.3 miles on my road, aiming for every imperfection, and it is AMAZING!!!

i would have bet u, seeing how i'd been all around 140, that it wouldn't make a difference, but i woulda lost that bet. 

thank u so much, this was driving me nuts. and i had snugged up the slider adjusters yesterday and i think that made a difference as well! noise wise at least. like a brand new perfect wheel.

i also uploaded the logs. here's the screenshot from when it happened. it was my second lap so about 6:24 pm est. 

thanks again so much. not use to getting such great service. u have restored my faith in humanity!
if u find out anything from that forward dip, please let me know.

[novazeus]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Like I said, as long as a 2-step valve connector is being used in a correct manner. And expecting either  connector to be working correctly of course.

just so u know, course i'm using the king song pump with the bigger dial, which seems like a better pump but it has the single nozzle with the rubber inside. looks almost like the very expensive harley pump i had, probably because it said harley on it. 

now, first off, my wheel is the best ever suspension wheel evah! now!

but i was curious, because like i said, i started using one of these suspension pumps with my flhrse4 in fall of 2007, on my 2008 bike. but it's been 7 years since i rode it. 

so just telling the truth here, take it or leave it. 

the shock was set at 250, or maybe 255, because i might have gone a hair past 250. i made sure the pump had the plunger fully depressed, and the reading i got was 225 fully engaged with the valve, 25 psi into the tube and or gauge. then because i had always tried to disengage the nozzle as fast as i can, for the sake of experimental value, i slowly unscrewed the nozzle while watching the pretty damn nice dial on the pump, 10 psi increments, but a nice big needle. and sure enough watching the needle as i slowly unscrewed it, and idk where the air went, the needle moved a tiny bit, like a half a tick mark, or 5psi down. i continued to unscrew slowly about three more turns, and then the needle slowly dropped, but consistently to zero. the 2 step nozzle on the inmotion pump is a superior non leaking designed, no doubt, but the dial and indicator needle is pretty rinky dink. i almost went inside to make up a soapy solution, the way i did pneumatic tube systems to check my brazing, but i was more curious/skeptical that jacob's advice would work. he has the exact same wheel but not that as many miles on his. 

so perfect now, i'm amazed. i ran over every crappy spot on my pavement and i know them all after 728 miles back and forth. so i'm about 175 naked, probably 180 riding weight. 140 psi and two turns out from counterclockwise exactly on the rebound damper. perfection! and maybe the rattle was the looser slider adjustment on one side. uploaded the logs, so i guess they go to inmotion, idk, i'm clueless. 

happy happy day when u fix ur wheel. 

idk about the 500 mile inspection thing. some people on the forum state that, but as careful as i am with my wheels, maybe it will be fine, he said he had received some king song replacement sliders and he said they were decent but the ning ning(sp) aftermarket ones were probably better. i don't care, i'll be riding the v13 for the two hours a day that Bob lets me. 

btw, jacob called me because michelin had run out of the pilot street 2 tires, because of demand. and i told him no worries, whenever they come in. he'll be shipping out my free kickstand immediately though. i'm gonna attempt to put it on the s18, because that's gonna be my practice wheel and i wanna give it a chance with a good tire. and i like the knobby on the s22 after accidentally grinding down the center nub in my trolley stand. easy to do if u grab it wrong with the power button location. did it again today accidentally because i hadn't screwed with it for awhile. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by novazeus
typos

[novazeus]

Easter sunday was my 69th birthday, and getting my favorite wheel set up perfectly is the best birthday present evah!

now, maybe inmotion will see my overpower/dip log and have a fix for that 

i can dream.

i know i can put enough forward lean on it, but after that dip, i'm a little timid now. i also asked jacob to keep an eye out for any forward bias aftermarket pedals that fit the v13. spikeless preferred. vicious griptape is plenty good with my vans slip on loafers.

if anybody knows of any, please let me know.

[Hellkitten]

@novazeus I realize you have a preference for aggressively forward pedals, but if you want leverage why are you against using pads? 
 

Happy birthday btw. 🎉🎉

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, Hellkitten said:

@novazeus I realize you have a preference for aggressively forward pedals, but if you want leverage why are you against using pads? 
 

Happy birthday btw. 🎉🎉

i don't like my legs touching the wheel body. i think that's where people get in trouble with oscillations/wobbles. i let the wheel do it's thing and i don't get wobbles. the wheel might oscillate for various reasons, but calms down bouncing off my legs with the yoga mat. clinching the wheel with ur legs is bad form in my opinion. i've never had speed or braking wobbles. i control the wheel with my size 12 feet and ankles. even in rough terrain. like riding a surfboard, or skateboard. my feet shift as well, the reason i don't like spiked pedals. vicious grip tape with van's waffle soles works great for me. i surf the wheel.

this clod hopper is plenty of leverage.

 

thanks for the birthday wishes.

Edited April 13, 2023 by novazeus

[Eyss]

Had a chance to go on a v13 with a street tire last night. 

When I swapped to street tires on my Sherman and hero, I immediately fell in love with it. They made the wheel so much better to ride. 

The street tire on the v13 may of been slightly better, but I'm satisfied with the knobby for now. 

I finished printing my pads and did a ride yesterday. I still need some time to get the pads right but they are nice to ride. Super soft and plenty of leverage 

I do miss the seated riding experience with the stock pads and i didn't mind them that much. Maybe once I got the custom pads set up nicely I won't miss the stock pads as much. 

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, conecones said:

Maintaining a higher speed comfortably requires pedal tilt adjustment

One of the riders told me that yesterday as well. I'm running 1 degree forward but still need more time to get used to it. 

[Punxatawneyjoe]

13 minutes ago, Eyss said:

I finished printing my pads and did a ride yesterday

Nice job, what printer did you use? I have a resin printer, i wonder if it would be good for printing some pads.

Also I'm running 3° forward except at night then its 2° back. And love the street tire, it's super smooth and quiet.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Punxatawneyjoe

[Eyss]

57 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Nice job, what printer did you use? I have a resin printer, i wonder if it would be good for printing some pads.

I used a ender 3 max with esun tpu 95. You can use rigit filaments but flexible ones would work better from my experience 

[UPONIT]

@novazeus As someone who didn't check this thread for a little while, then binged, can I take a swing at what I see as "the problem" in the Great Shock Pump Debate of 2023?

I could be wrong, but I think you missed the detail about "two-stage" pumps. From that point on, you were discussing a concept a few clicks different from what @mrelwood and others were trying to explain. Neither side seemed to notice, because of the fragmentary nature of forums?

In the interest of peace love and understanding, here's my tediously detailed explainer, so you can see (I hope) why the "No Air Loss" crowd is correct. You have to start with a blank, open mind...

1. you screw the pump's coupling onto the tire/shock valve, but it does not depress the valve stem, so no air flows. No pressure registers on the gauge. But it is now a closed, sealed system.

2. you then flip a lever (or somesuch) on the coupling, which depresses the tire's valve stem, allowing airflow, which fills the short tube from tire valve to pump body. Air pressure of the tire registers. A tiny amount of air is lost from the tire to fill the pump tube, but it won't matter (excruciating detail available if necessary... lol).

3. You pump the tire/shock to the psi you want.

4. You then flip the lever the other way, releasing the valve stem. The tire/shock is now sealed again. No air has been, or can be, released from the shock/tire. It is at the pressure you set it at. Period.

5. NOW, you either unscrew the coupling, or, more elegantly, press a bleed button and the tiny amount of air in the pump's tube is released, making the coupling easier to unscrew. The hiss of air you hear is the air in the pump tube bleeding off. But no air escapes the tire/shock.

So no, you don't lose a tiny amount of air from a shock when detaching a 2-stage type pump.

Did this help at all? If you already understood this, or I misread how or where the communication/understanding collapse occurred, well... horsefeathers.

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, UPONIT said:

@novazeus As someone who didn't check this thread for a little while, then binged, can I take a swing at what I see as "the problem" in the Great Shock Pump Debate of 2023?

I could be wrong, but I think you missed the detail about "two-stage" pumps. From that point on, you were discussing a concept a few clicks different from what @mrelwood and others were trying to explain. Neither side seemed to notice, because of the fragmentary nature of forums?

In the interest of peace love and understanding, here's my tediously detailed explainer, so you can see (I hope) why the "No Air Loss" crowd is correct. You have to start with a blank, open mind...

1. you screw the pump's coupling onto the tire/shock valve, but it does not depress the valve stem, so no air flows. No pressure registers on the gauge. But it is now a closed, sealed system.

2. you then flip a lever (or somesuch) on the coupling, which depresses the tire's valve stem, allowing airflow, which fills the short tube from tire valve to pump body. Air pressure of the tire registers. A tiny amount of air is lost from the tire to fill the pump tube, but it won't matter (excruciating detail available if necessary... lol).

3. You pump the tire/shock to the psi you want.

4. You then flip the lever the other way, releasing the valve stem. The tire/shock is now sealed again. No air has been, or can be, released from the shock/tire. It is at the pressure you set it at. Period.

5. NOW, you either unscrew the coupling, or, more elegantly, press a bleed button and the tiny amount of air in the pump's tube is released, making the coupling easier to unscrew. The hiss of air you hear is the air in the pump tube bleeding off. But no air escapes the tire/shock.

So no, you don't lose a tiny amount of air from a shock when detaching a 2-stage type pump.

Did this help at all? If you already understood this, or I misread how or where the communication/understanding collapse occurred, well... horsefeathers.

yes, u are describing a two stage type coupling like the supplied air pump that inmotion gives u with the v13. but that's not the one i'm using because the needle on the gauge is very small and the dial is also, not that it really matters because if ur aimimg for 140psi, which i've finally settled on, i don't really know if it's 140 or 135, there's that much deviation from air pump to air pump. that's why u don't use inmotion's one day, then a week later because it's convenient use the king song one they give u with the s18, and if u can't find it or either, use the one u started using in 2007 u bought for ur harley. i'm well aware of how the connectors work and how they don't lose air, been using one since 2007. but the king song one is a one step connector that just screws on and off, just like the harley one. that tiny bit of deviation, from the loss of a tiny bit of air, like i said, a gnat's breath, isn't gonna make a difference. if u want consistency and more accurately following a chart perhaps, i'd overshoot slightly because most all read high. 140 psi is more like 138, but who cares. if the needle on the gauge reads 140, but in reality it's 138, and u have the ride u want, so what. if on the other hand, u suspect ur air shock is leaking air, and u filled it to 140 on the gauge, and u go to check it, and u screw on the pump and it reads 120, and 20 psi is what the loss is every time, then it becomes ur ruler or measuring device. if u connected and it read 100, then u know it's not just air going into the tube and gauge. yes, i understand how shock pumps work, i also owned an airconditioning company for a few years working with refrigerant and the environmentalists were pretty touchy about freon back in the day, leaking into the environment. the screw on connectors aren't as perfect as the two stage connectors, but a gnat's breath, if u know what a gnat is, won't make a difference. using different pumps will. the inmotion pump while having a better two stage connector, has a rinky dink gauge. the king song pump has a much better dial and needle. idk which one is the most accurate, and idgaf, as long as i use the same one all the time. the king song one, if the gauge is accurate, if u slowly unscrew the connector, registers a slight decrease on the dial. if u are so inclined, u can see for urself. it doesn't matter because these cheap china made pumps might be inaccurate 5psi either way, again, idgaf, as long as u use the same pump every time. if i had money to burn, and needed precision, like tom brady's footballs, maybe i'd spend hundreds of dollars on some lab grade pump. this isn't rocket science, but to say there's zero air loss, with a screw on connector, is like saying my 800 watt solar array produces 800 watts of power when in full summer pointed directly at the sun on a clear day, the best i've ever seen is 385 watts. on paper, in theory, yes, in real life, not happening. a grain of sand between the metal stem and the rubber insert inside the connector could cause a gnat's breath of air to escape. that's why it's so funny the environmentalists concerned about freon in the old days, and people thinking they need refrigerant, and technicians just letting it out, all bullshit, just thinking back to the days of servicing hvac systems and installing them. we had the same shit with the connectors back then when i started that trade in 1991. all up on gauges and connectors. yellow jackets were the best. idk what they are doing now, idgaf. 

i'm just happy that around 140, could be 135, certainly not over 140, the v13 is smooth as butter now. tire pressure on my race motorcycle was more critical to me. 1 psi up or down would make a huge difference on my ability to lean in a corner. air shocks are just ballpark. that's why the inmotion one looks like u won it in a claw game machine. not important. 

hope this clarifies for u. idk how precise mountain bikes shocks are, don't have one, don't want one, no mountains in florida, and again, idgaf. must be important to them though to go to all that trouble testing 15 different pumps. idk. 

for me, i just need to put the inmotion one in a drawer for now, or toss it, because i can barely read the dial. legibility is more important than perfect accuracy, and from these anal retentive mountain bikers review, only 3 out of 15, according to them, were accurate. but who knows if u went out and bought one, if urs would be accurate, or they are just pimping a brand because they get kickbacks, u know, like doctors precribing pharmaceuticals. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by novazeus

[mrelwood]

11 hours ago, novazeus said:

i don't like my legs touching the wheel body. i think that's where people get in trouble with oscillations/wobbles.

2016-2019: Wobbles were sometimes a problem when going over 30km/h.

 Around 2019: people started using pads. Popularity spread like wildfire.

2019-2023: Wobbles were sometimes a problem when going over 30km/h.

So no, pads aren’t causing wobbles, any more than they’d force you to squeeze (or “clinch”) the wheel.

11 hours ago, novazeus said:

i don't get wobbles. the wheel might oscillate for various reasons

It would seem that what you call oscillations is what others call wobbles.

11 hours ago, novazeus said:

i've never had speed or braking wobbles.

Just a month ago we tried to figure out why you suddenly had braking wobbles when you hadn’t had them before. So “never” doesn’t really seem to fit here.

 

6 hours ago, UPONIT said:

can I take a swing at what I see as "the problem" in the Great Shock Pump Debate of 2023?

That was a much better description of how to use a 2-step pumps than what I was able to come up with, thanks!

 

5 hours ago, novazeus said:

i'm well aware of how the connectors work and how they don't lose air, been using one since 2007.

Then how come yesterday you were still so sure that the pump connectors lose 10-20psi of air when disconnected??? And got angry and defensive when you were told that they don’t???

 Sometimes it seems like you type more of what you would’ve liked to have happened than what actually happened.

[conecones]

21 hours ago, novazeus said:

is this what u are referring to? mine had the same exact problem and thanks to frank's video, i fixed it before riding.

i did the adjustment as well, yesterday i think, but the rattle is still present. nothing like the issue marty had, only one side was loose. might fix the clunk i sometimes would get rarely on one of my 2300 starts so far.

would u mind sharing ur weight, tire pressure, type of tire, and suspension settings if u are please with the softness of the ride. 

 

Yes this is the issue. It's too bad IM hasn't release a notice for this because it just comes down to bad assembly QC. People will be mislead into thinking its a faulty damper when it's actually fixable.

My wheel is setup as follows: 175lbs riding weight, 40 PSI stock tire, 225 PSI shocks, rebound 2 full turns from fully open. Works on pothole streets and on the trails. If doing jumps probably should max it out at 250 PSI or more.

7 hours ago, UPONIT said:

@novazeus As someone who didn't check this thread for a little while, then binged, can I take a swing at what I see as "the problem" in the Great Shock Pump Debate of 2023?

I could be wrong, but I think you missed the detail about "two-stage" pumps. From that point on, you were discussing a concept a few clicks different from what @mrelwood and others were trying to explain. Neither side seemed to notice, because of the fragmentary nature of forums?

In the interest of peace love and understanding, here's my tediously detailed explainer, so you can see (I hope) why the "No Air Loss" crowd is correct. You have to start with a blank, open mind...

1. you screw the pump's coupling onto the tire/shock valve, but it does not depress the valve stem, so no air flows. No pressure registers on the gauge. But it is now a closed, sealed system.

2. you then flip a lever (or somesuch) on the coupling, which depresses the tire's valve stem, allowing airflow, which fills the short tube from tire valve to pump body. Air pressure of the tire registers. A tiny amount of air is lost from the tire to fill the pump tube, but it won't matter (excruciating detail available if necessary... lol).

3. You pump the tire/shock to the psi you want.

4. You then flip the lever the other way, releasing the valve stem. The tire/shock is now sealed again. No air has been, or can be, released from the shock/tire. It is at the pressure you set it at. Period.

5. NOW, you either unscrew the coupling, or, more elegantly, press a bleed button and the tiny amount of air in the pump's tube is released, making the coupling easier to unscrew. The hiss of air you hear is the air in the pump tube bleeding off. But no air escapes the tire/shock.

So no, you don't lose a tiny amount of air from a shock when detaching a 2-stage type pump.

Did this help at all? If you already understood this, or I misread how or where the communication/understanding collapse occurred, well... horsefeathers.

Actually a properly designed 2-stage shock pump doesn't always have a "lever" or what's also known as a manual 2-stage pump. All 2-stage means is that the pump head seals against the valve stem before the pin engages the valve core. A well made pump and a valve within proper tolerances doesn't require a lever. I've had cheap shock pumps in the past without this lever and it's worked fine. I use the V13 stock pump WITHOUT engaging the manual 2 stage feature, and it works no problem. You'll know it's working right if you do this test - after pumping the shock, unscrew the chuck very very slowly. If you hear hissing, then your shock is losing air and you should use a manual 2-stage pump. If you hear a blast of air, then its the pump losing air and your pump is fine.

Accuracy of pump reading is not important. Precision (repeatability) is what matters, and most pumps even cheap ones are precise enough for our needs. novazeus is just getting himself worked up over nothing again. The non-professional grade pumps/tire gauges are never very accurate so you adjust based on the specific pump/pressure gauge that you have. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by conecones

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

So no, pads aren’t causing wobbles, any more than they’d force you to squeeze (or “clinch”) the wheel.

i think people just like to argue. i never said pads cause wobbles

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

It would seem that what you call oscillations is what others call wobbles.

yeah, what i call wobbles is what happened to marty when the wheel dumped him on his ass. oscillations is what happens momentarily by many numerous things, pavement, wind, poor riding technique, etc etc etc. no, i have never had wobbles like u have.

u can't ride a wheel and it never ever oscillate, but u can ride a wheel and never ever wobble ur ass to the pavement like marty and dawn when she was carrying the big stuffed animal.

the v13 is more prone to oscillations than my s22 for example, but no wobbles.

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Then how come yesterday you were still so sure that the pump connectors lose 10-20psi of air when disconnected??? And got angry and defensive when you were told that they don’t???

 Sometimes it seems like you type more of what you would’ve liked to have happened than what actually happened

it think the translator ur using isn't reading correctly. i explained yesterday how i slowly unscrewed the connector, and saw the gauge needle decrease a tiny bit, maybe 5psi, and then three more turns and it drops to zero. why do u just want to argue. go to work or go ride or something. i don't have time to teach u. try it for urself. go reread what i wrote, slowly out loud. i'm not angry just tired of u beating a dead horse!

the forum sb about helping other riders. not ur need to fight with forum members. get a girlfriend or something.

[mrelwood]

Dear lord.

I decide not to bother quoting your earlier posts that said what you claim they didn’t. Since that would probably seem like I’d want to argue.

A wobble doesn’t mean a crash. Not all wobbles lead to a crash. Wobble is an uncontrolled oscillating movement that your wheel might do while riding. Just like the onomatopoeic word itself sounds like.

 Words have meanings for a reason. It doesn’t make sense to use different meanings than others do.

3 hours ago, novazeus said:

no, i have never had wobbles like u have.

I don’t think I actually ever described what kinds of wobbles I’ve had. Maybe you just want to argue. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by mrelwood

[soulson]

21 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Also I'm running 3° forward except at night then its 2° back.

Good idea. For 5+ years I've permanently ridden with 2° forward balance angle, but a degree or two back probably makes a lot of sense at night. I already open the menu to reduce my tiltback speed when I ride at night; next time I'll adjust the balance angle too and see if I like it.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

8 minutes ago, soulson said:

I'll adjust the balance angle too and see if I like it.

Iv'e been doing it because the v11 and v13 headlight isn't tiltable so it's the only way to see where im going. It's not the most comfortable ride but at least when i tilt forward the headlight isn't hitting the ground 10 ft in front of me.

[soulson]

Right, I understand. I would never want to ride at a negative balance angle at the speeds I ride during the day, but at night I ride slowly anyways, so I'm thinking it might not be too uncomfortable.

[UPONIT]

13 hours ago, conecones said:

Actually a properly designed 2-stage shock pump doesn't always have a "lever" or what's also known as a manual 2-stage pump. All 2-stage means is that the pump head seals against the valve stem before the pin engages the valve core. A well made pump and a valve within proper tolerances doesn't require a lever. I've had cheap shock pumps in the past without this lever and it's worked fine. I use the V13 stock pump WITHOUT engaging the manual 2 stage feature, and it works no problem. You'll know it's working right if you do this test - after pumping the shock, unscrew the chuck very very slowly. If you hear hissing, then your shock is losing air and you should use a manual 2-stage pump. If you hear a blast of air, then its the pump losing air and your pump is fine.

Accuracy of pump reading is not important. Precision (repeatability) is what matters, and most pumps even cheap ones are precise enough for our needs. novazeus is just getting himself worked up over nothing again. The non-professional grade pumps/tire gauges are never very accurate so you adjust based on the specific pump/pressure gauge that you have. 

Thanks for the info. The Inmotion pumps that came with my V11 and V12ht aren't the 2-stage type, so... toss.

Sidenote: I'm not even sure that "2-stage" is the appropriate term for the kind of pump we are talking about. I just used it because it seemed to be the prevailing term here. Most of my experience with pneumatics is with compressors, where two-stage means something very different. "Shock pumps" might not technically include "a bleedable pump that prevents air loss from the thing being pumped into?"

Whatever it's called, the tiny volume of EUC shocks, and the (IMHO) discernible difference a couple of pounds of psi can make in an EUC tire warrant an accurate, precise and high-resolution, "No Loss" pump. For shocks, great. For tires, if more than a few pounds of inflation is needed, I use a compressor then switch to my not-cheap No Loss pump, since the downside of all that accuracy, precision and resolution is, of course, a tiny stroke volume of about 5cc.

I'm not sure how tight tolerances alone could make a coupling "no loss," since the pin on a Schrader valve is slightly recessed from the top of the stem. But it doesn't matter. If the pump meets a person's needs, it's a win. Inaccurate/inconsistent measurements make me bananas, so in most cases, paying for quality tools is worth it, IMHO...

[UPONIT]

4 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Iv'e been doing it because the v11 and v13 headlight isn't tiltable so it's the only way to see where im going. It's not the most comfortable ride but at least when i tilt forward the headlight isn't hitting the ground 10 ft in front of me.

That is interesting to me. Riding at an angle you wouldn't normally choose bothers you less than having the headlight focus at an undesirable distance.

5 degrees seems like a fairly big adjustment to deal with comfort-wise.... especially since it crosses from forward tilt to backward tilt.

🤔

Edited April 14, 2023 by UPONIT
figuring how to paste unicode characters. grrr

[Hellkitten]

I’ve been riding at -1 on a v11 for awhile now. It seems to be a decent amount of light to pedal angle arrangement, at least for me. Wish the lights were modular…..