Inmotion V13 Speculation

[HEC]

17 minutes ago, Forwardnbak said:

the handle popping up was due to the seat I probably placed slightly wrong (that’s just a bonus tip for anyone wanting more from their wheel) 

You're not the only one, the seat seems to make it fairly difficult (if not impossible) to lock down the trolley handle. Perhaps removing the small velcro strip in the middle would help, and if yes, then carving a gap at the bottom to make it flush would be likely a solution. 

[HEC]

3 hours ago, 2disbetter said:

They have less capacity and I think they don't output quite as much current but to me switching to lifepo4 batteries would get rid of the fire worries. They will not cause fires. 

Solowheel EUCs were actually build using LiFePo4 cells for safety reasons. The drop in range is not that big and for safety conscious riders it would be a nice option to have a choice between extended ranged and higher safety. On other hand, there are ways to make LiIon cell based battery packs safer too. In addition to smart BMS, proper QA and cell selection / testing, fully enclosed packs are safer than cell just shrink wrapped in a heat tube.

In the end, it's always some kind of compromise between size / weight / range, cost and safety. You can't have all 3, so need to chose two, which are higher priority for you personally. 

[Cerbera]

Bit of (dry) swamp testing (and Gator-baiting) for the V13 from Duf here...

 

[Cerbera]

4 hours ago, HEC said:

Solowheel EUCs were actually build using LiFePo4 cells for safety reasons.

So why did every manufacturer subsequently abandon these ? We haven't always been furious range-fiends !

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Cerbera

[Tawpie]

24 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

So why did every manufacturer subsequently abandon these ?

Well, BG did try Resolute… 

[techyiam]

38 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Well, BG did try Resolute… 

But how many were sold? 

I think the blame for the lack of interest in LiFePo4 cells in the Electric World rest on both us, the consumers, and Begode the manufacturer. 

I think people are still clamoring over performance rather than safety, when you have to pay for it. 

And Begode's attempt at marketing was dreadful for general public consumption. If the audience were all technical gurus, perhaps they have a sliver of chance. Haphazardly, drilling into a battery pack is not going to cut it, IMO.

[Josiah]

9 hours ago, 2disbetter said:

Regarding Josiah, the only time I've seen this kind of battery im-balancing was because of weather related issues. At cold temperatures cell structures break down. Cold kills lithium batteries. The issue you are seeing could be more than that, but in general never leave your EUC in a space where the temps are at or below freezing. 

A bit tricky to not only store the wheel out of doors if possible but also to keep it climate controlled.  Seems possible but quite difficult.  A heated, insulated outbuilding, away from other structures and wooded areas.  
 

Can we go back to the a blanket idea.  I use a piece of special fabric when I’m soldering that can take a jetted flame while insulating the heat.  We need a bag made from that material.  
 

Your friend has shared a link to a Home Depot product they think you would be interested in seeing.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/OATEY-9-in-x-12-in-Hands-Free-Solder-Heat-Shield-314002/100345508

 

[2disbetter]

1 minute ago, Josiah said:

A bit tricky to not only store the wheel out of doors if possible but also to keep it climate controlled.  Seems possible but quite difficult.  A heated, insulated outbuilding, away from other structures and wooded areas.  

With Inmotion wheels I feel safe enough to bring the wheels into the house. When the wheels are being charged I monitor boards temps and voltages periodically. So far I have had no concerns about a run away fire from an overcharged cell. I think Inmotion does a good job of checking all of these things. For that reason both of my wheels are in doors, but by the front door. 

[Lets Do Science]

400+ miles odo.

Anyone else getting intermittent error messages? I'm noticing these notifications mostly after power cycles and/or charging, I have been uploading the errors to Inmotion. My battery readings look healthy in the app, maybe just software glitches?

-"motor hall_1 failed, motor hall_2 failed" This went away after taking it off my wheel stand several days ago.

-i had an error saying something about a battery not acting correctly, this went away after a power cycle.

-Attached is my last fault reading, went away after some time and power cycles.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Lets Do Science
Word

[Josiah]

51 minutes ago, Lets Do Science said:

Attached is my last error reading, went away after some time and power cycles.

I had the “ normal power off failed “ message also.  I did not get the whole sensor messages but did get a lot of otter errors and funny behavior.  
 

I have dropped this wheel at low speed on occasion.  Including a low speed tumble on stairs,  Mileage about 215,  charge cycles, four.  Has been protected with a layer of Velcro, the grizzle flow pads, and the Clark bumpers.  after inspection, there’s not a scratch on the wheel besides the pedals.  

Edited March 6, 2023 by Josiah

[Josiah]

11 minutes ago, 2disbetter said:

With Inmotion wheels I feel safe enough to bring the wheels into the house.

I agree.  Did see one bad review on Amazon about a new V11 causing a dangerous house fire upon initial charge cycle.  About 1 year ago Jan 2022 customer posted a 1 star review describing the fire.  

[supercurio]

22 hours ago, Josiah said:

2 hrs later?  Cells have balanced? Still a fire risk?  No error message now again. 

 

 

By the way @Josiah, do you know, or can infer from ambient what were the battery packs BMS temps the last time you charged?

Essentially I wonder if the packs were initially charging in the same -30 °F / -1 °C environment as later.

[Josiah]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

By the way @Josiah, do you know, or can infer from ambient what were the battery packs BMS temps the last time you charged?

Essentially I wonder if the packs were initially charging in the same -30 °F / -1 °C environment as later.

I’m sure they never got that cold.  Our low temp was in the 25 degrees Fahrenheit the night it was in the car.   Also did not attempt to charge until after it rested at room temperature for 12 hrs +

I have dropped the wheel at low speeds on several occasions. There was one low speed tumble drop on stairs. The wheel has been protected by a layer of Velcro, Grizzla flow pads, and Clark bumpers.   After inspection, I do not see a scratch on the wheel itself. Besides, the pedals.   Have 214 miles and four charge cycles.

 

The wheel is going through a power down cycle at Jasons request basically running their headlights. We’re going to see if the voltage can balance once it gets a low battery.

It’s not all rain clouds over here though!  I just found a missing part!

Edited March 6, 2023 by Josiah

[Paul A]

1 hour ago, Josiah said:

store the wheel out of doors

 

Spoiler

Maybe search for and use an outdoor, weather proof cabinet. 

Various sizes, prices, materials, designs......

 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Gymax-Storage-Cabinet-with-Double-Doors-Solid-Fir-Wood-Tool-Shed-Garden-Organizer/253092837

________________________________

 

The FDNY twitter video of the Bronx supermarket fire, doesn't seem to be active anymore.

Here is a YouTube security cam video, showing the electric scooter at the moment of explosion.

 

 

 

[supercurio]

Thanks @Josiah it rules out cold charging being a cause. I just wanted to make sure, in case I misunderstood one of your previous messages.

That's a huge lot of padding on this V13. It certainly should be enough - and as good as it gets. As we know sometimes shit happens to packs and BMS, like on the OG Sherman (so I designed a solution for it which seemed to work well)
But the V13 is heavy and it's not unreasonable to think about what happens when the wheel falls, even if it seems innocuous.

What we saw also with various wheels is that the robustness of the design is often validated with the stock pads and not third party ones.
Then forces can be transmitted to a different spot and introduce damage the designers didn't anticipate.

It could also be a defect which only showed up later with vibrations and changes in temperatures. Can bad soldering do that @Tawpie?

 

@chanman mentioned it earlier the topic, but in any case it's awesome to have a Smart BMS here. On a Begode pack you could have the same problem preventing a cell group to be measured correctly, ending up drained too much by erroneous balancing and destroyed over time.. until the whole thing catching fire by charging a group of cells now fully defunct.
Instead here sure there's an inconvenience already but we know, and it'll be taken care of.

Edited March 6, 2023 by supercurio

[Tawpie]

Just now, supercurio said:

It could also be a defect which only showed up later with vibrations and changes in temperatures. Can bad soldering do that @Tawpie?

Absolutely. Temperature cycling and vibration (of unsupported connections) will expose any soldering problems quickly. 

[A High Roller]

Finally got mine today as well. Just in time for a trip to the dentist's office, although I had to reschedule, because I can't freakin' ride this thing!!! It's like learning to ride all over again. Coming from a 84v MSX this thing is just so HUGE!

[A High Roller]

I've been hammering at the pedals on the V13 for like 10 minutes now. Nothing is happening. Am I just weak? I'm trying to put on Wolverine pedals from my Gotway. Not 100% sure if it'll work

(I was missing a screw, they fit perfectly)

Edited March 6, 2023 by A High Roller

[Josiah]

I’ve got challenger in a state of the art diagnostic service area. We’re getting her down to 20% battery with power on and headlight taillight/fan function, but no motor function because she’s resting on her side.   We’ll see if the cells can re-balance.  Jason , his crew, and Tech Support at in motion are following this in real time.  I feel like one of my kids are in the ER but I have great faith in the doctors to help.  

Edited March 6, 2023 by Josiah

[Josiah]

Sidenote, I love Jason and his crew at ewheels. I will definitely be buying another wheel from them.  My buddy who I met on the forum has shown me the art of buying wheels used and now I understand partially the motivation for that because I feel so sad that my only wheel is broken and there’s a part of me that’s missing. I need another wheel to help me get through this sad time so I would like to because I cannot afford another full price will make a goal to purchase another new wheel from Jason but at the same time purchase a wheel used that I can afford to get me through

Edited March 7, 2023 by Josiah

[Josiah]

Reached out to my buddy Ron I am in serious withdrawal here maybe I can borrow a wheel.   I’m sure you guys are on the edge of your seat, so I will update as soon as he responds.

[Paul A]

6 minutes ago, Josiah said:

in serious withdrawal

 

DIY. 

Go old school.

 

[HEC]

2 hours ago, supercurio said:

It could also be a defect which only showed up later with vibrations and changes in temperatures. Can bad soldering do that @Tawpie?

For sure. That's what I've mentioned few replies back here. All you need is one sub-par solder or weld point (and there are dozens of those in each pack), and after some shaking or bumping upon transit or riding you'll have yourself an issue like @Josiahis experiencing. Thankfully, Jason (eWheels) is the best seller out there to purchase a wheel with tricky fault like this from, as you are not only guaranteed to have the issue addressed, but also passed onto and followed up by Inmotion. 

[HEC]

53 minutes ago, Josiah said:

I’ve got challenger in a state of the art diagnostic service area. We’re getting her down to 20% battery with power on and headlight taillight/fan function, but no motor function because she’s resting on her side.   We’ll see if the cells can re-balance.  Jason , his crew, and Tech Support at in motion are following this in real time.

To be honest, even if the battery pack will rebalance, I'd not trust it. Those two extreme voltages reported can be caused by either significantly under and over charged groups of cells (in which case they are already irreversible damaged), or by faulty voltage reading / sensing by BMS, either due to lose connection or damaged sensing input. In which case, no balancing is going to resolve that, just the temperature changes causing material contractions and expansions are likely making the fault temporary to "disappear".

Either way, I'd insist on replacement. I'm sure Jason will come to the same conclusion and arrange for battery pack (or whole wheel) replacement with you and Inmotion. And Inmotion will most likely pass this to their battery pack manufacturer (Huizhou Blueway Electronics) for further investigation and hopefully to pinpoint the possible weakness in the manufacturing or testing process to prevent this in the future. In the end as long as no personal or property damage or harm was caused, it's a "learning" experience.  Good luck! 

Edited March 6, 2023 by HEC

[supercurio]

Fully agree with @HEC

Since the V13 battery packs are potted, it's crucial that each issue is fully investigated and solved.
Otherwise it's gonna cost a fortune since they can't easily be repaired.