Inmotion V13 Speculation

[soulson]

I've definitely had my V10F beep at me for overcurrent going far less than 40 km/h. For my first year or two of riding it, it was obnoxious how much it happened. Much more often for me than overspeed. At first, I thought it was defective. Eventually, I internalized its limits and mostly avoid overcurrent on it these days.

[mrelwood]

I had a beta firmware on the V11 that accidentally had a constant 2000W power limit. Man that was pain… I think that’s when they adjusted the power based tilt-backing situations, and accidentally left it at the empty battery state or something. But yeah, I overpower the V11 once in a while when doing technical slow speed off-roading.

[conecones]

16 hours ago, Josiah said:

I’ve got a lot of dirty water marks all over in here already.  
Let me know how the plug ideas work out.  I’ll start working on a temporary internal mudguard in the mean time.  

You're in luck. I just finished making and installing mine:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5856406

[Punxatawneyjoe]

4 minutes ago, conecones said:

You're in luck. I just finished making and installing mine:

Let me know how that works out because i was under the impression that channel needs to remain open for the cooling fans for the headlight to be able to move air over the board heat sink and out the back. I would be concerned on a hot night with the headlight on.

[conecones]

2 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Let me know how that works out because i was under the impression that channel needs to remain open for the cooling fans for the headlight to be able to move air over the board heat sink and out the back. I would be concerned on a hot night with the headlight on.

You can cut some holes in it or simply remove it when not needed. But IMO the cavity in there is huge and this guard is very flimsy, it will rotate around and flex while riding so there is not going to be much air flow interruption.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

15 minutes ago, conecones said:

so there is not going to be much air flow interruption.

Sure, makes sense. I don't honestly know how important it is. Might be not important at all. I guess the only way to tell is to monitor the board temperature with the headlight on riding it. I haven't been able to ride it much because of work unfortunately. I have only 38 miles on it so far...

[HEC]

A small OT / comment on topic of "insufficient" warnings of V13. My second EUC, Solowheel Xtreme*, (many, many years ago) had several great things , extremely unique at the time: "large" sized tire, "powerful" 1800W motor, gorgeous looking slim tall body, lights, not covered tire, mobile app and most of all, highly effective alarms.  Massive tiltback, like 30°, you could not ride that out, only stop and get off. And also "pedal" vibrations, which were achieved by controlling the motor - IMO the most effective and much safer warning / notification than any other I have experienced on any other EUC since.

*Max speed: 16 Km/h, Max range: 20 Km and I had a BLAST riding it ... How spoiled are we now.

https://solowheel.com/product/xtreme/

Edited February 17, 2023 by HEC

[Josiah]

@HEC

didn't see an update on the thread about your V13.  Sorry for the redundancy if I missed it.  Did they finally figure out where it is?  

[HEC]

Just now, Josiah said:

@HEC

didn't see an update on the thread about your V13.  Sorry for the redundancy if I missed it.  Did they finally figure out where it is?  

Still in the UPS' void ... 😥

My educated guess would be that it has been "misplaced" by someone attracted by its colourful packaging. 

At this point I've kinda accepted that it will not show up, and I just hope that I'll able to arrange a replacement to be sent rather than refund, as I've purchased it at heavily discounted price. Either way I'm likely looking at another 2 months of waiting, unless the seller already got some EU stock.

[Josiah]

I know!  They shipped it in an obvious clear packaging.  Hard to believe it would be stolen though with the tracking technology and the fact that whoever powers it on initially and connects  it to an the InMotion app would be traceable by InMotion.

They need to bring back flogging and restitution to reimburse the victim by at least 2-3 times the value of the stolen item.  

Edited February 17, 2023 by Josiah

[Begodecrashtestdummy]

11 hours ago, 2disbetter said:

That was wild, but I noticed in the comments he said the wheel was beeping but he couldn't hear it, AND he was not getting any tiltback. He has not specified if he disabled that. (not sure you can) But honestly something is wrong with his wheel. This is not something that the wheel should be doing. 

I am hoping we hear more from this story. Has me questioning if I really need to be going faster than 60 on a one wheel?

Why is it beeping anyways at 90kph it is supposed to have an extra 40% power in reserve to prevent any type of overpower or cutout !inmotion is full of shit .the wheel has no range anyway and it’s no safer than any other wheels out there .🤣🤣🤣🤣 

[HEC]

1 minute ago, Josiah said:

I know they shipped it in an obvious clear package.  Hard to believe it would be stolen though with the tracking technology and the fact that whoever powers it on initially and connects  it to an the InMotion app would be traceable by InMotion.

Eh, stuff get "misplaced" all the time. Some years ago the whole pallet containing several huge and extremely expensive specialised servers got "misplaced" while I was expecting it at work for scheduled installation,  to never be found. 

[Punxatawneyjoe]

1 hour ago, Dosingpsychedelics said:

Why is it beeping anyways at 90kph

 

1 hour ago, Dosingpsychedelics said:

🤣🤣🤣🤣 

Yeah, cut outs are funny. It wasn't 90kph LTR

[chanman]

I think most of us know to lay off on the acceleration a bit near the top and not just blast all the way to top speed, but I guess something like the V13 would give people that much confidence to try. I think the issue was nailed earlier with the beeps and tiltback not being aggressive enough to deter the rider.

[Mango]

Kuji only posted acceleration times up to 70km/hr. Although he has been seen going over 90km/hr, I'm sure he took his time to get to that top speed. Only he can confirm this.

Accelerating aggressively on Inmotion wheels will always trigger an earlier tilt-back.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Dosingpsychedelics said:

Why is it beeping anyways at 90kph it is supposed to have an extra 40% power in reserve to prevent any type of overpower or cutout !

You are confusing speed and power. It has 36% of speed headroom at 90km/h, but the power requirements are created by the rider. V13 is one of the most powerful wheels ever made, but if you try to accelerate to 90km/h “as fast as possible” like this rider did, you can overpower any wheel.

2 hours ago, Dosingpsychedelics said:

inmotion is full of shit .

Right. Happy to have you here to set the record straight.

2 hours ago, Dosingpsychedelics said:

the wheel has no range anyway and it’s no safer than any other wheels out there .🤣🤣🤣🤣 

Right. So you’re just trolling. Sorry to have wasted my time.

Edited February 17, 2023 by mrelwood

[Eyss]

Eriderz has their v13 stock now!

But waiting on new motor bolts before sending out. The waiting continues 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CowQIhjDaR0/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=

[InfiniteWheelie]

I hope people start to realize how retarded it is to not use high power cells...

High energy 2170 cells are 5.0 ah. High power 2170 cells (Samsung 40T or Molicel p45b) are between 4.0 ah and 4.5 ah. That means switching to high power cells only sacrifices 10-20% capacity. They also perform much better in the cold, and charge faster.

Had Inmotion used high power cells, the V13 battery itself would've been capable of >20kW continuous. They could've set the top speed to 100 km/h, with no worry of cutouts from hard acceleration or bumps, even at top speed. There'd be a massive power reserve.

On a device which relies on available power for safety, it's absolutely indefensible to continue using these shitty high energy cells, just to save a few dollars and add a few kilometers of range.

Edited February 17, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie

[HEC]

48 minutes ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

I hope people start to realize how retarded it is to not use high power cells...

High energy 2170 cells have 5.0 ah, while high power cells like the Samsung 40T and Molocel p45b have 4.0 ah and 4.5 ah respectively. That means switching to high power cells only loses 10-20% capacity. They also perform much better in the cold, and charge faster.

Had Inmotion used high power cells, the V13 battery itself would've been capable of >20kW continuous. They could set the top speed to 100 km/h, with no worry of hard acceleration or bumps causing a cutout, even near top speed. There would be a massive power reserve.

On a device which relies on available power for safety, it's absolutely indefensible to continue using these shitty high energy cells, just to save a few dollars and add a few kilometers of range.

I disagree. 

1. V13 is using 18650 cells, not 2170.

2. People are already complaining about "insufficient" range of V13 (which I disagree with too btw.), so decreasing this by "only" 20% will make that even worse. 

3. 10 kW is IMHO plenty for the wheel of V13's size and form factor. And, as extensively discussed here (and in below split post) last night, no amount of power will ever make any EUC infallible or idiotproof. The problem is within irresponsible EUC riders, not the wheels.

4. The cells Inmotion is using are anything but "shitty".

5. It's not saving just "a few dollars" (see below).

6. Replacing the cells is not a simple swap one to one task. In addition to complete overhaul of controller, motor, cabling, cooling and basically rest of the whole EUC due to significant increase in weight, you need also take in consideration significant differences in thermal properties of higher performance cells.

Designing and most of all mass produce safe and reliable EUC is highly challenging task, requiring years of experience and expertise, which Inmotion undoubtedly poses. I'm really getting ticked of by all the "simple improvements" suggested by the "couch" designers with limited or zero knowledge of the overall EUC complexity.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by HEC

[InfiniteWheelie]

50 minutes ago, HEC said:

1. V13 is using 18650 cells, not 2170.

I know, but that's irrelevant. I'm talking about designing it that way to begin with, I'm not suggesting they simply swap the cells out now.

 

50 minutes ago, HEC said:

2. People are already complaining about "insufficient" range of V13 (which I disagree with too btw.), so decreasing this by "only" 20% will make that even worse. 

So make a pack with 3 kWh of high power cells, adding a few more cells isn't impossible at all. Again I'm talking about designing it that way to begin with.

 

50 minutes ago, HEC said:

3. 10 kW is IMHO plenty for the wheel of V13's size and form factor. And, as extensively discussed here (and in below split post) last night, no amount of power will ever make any EUC infallible or idiotproof. The problem is within irresponsible EUC riders, not the wheels.

It's highly possible that >20 kW with a 90 km/h speed limit would be physically impossible to overpower during acceleration. Of course you could always keep pushing beyond the top speed, but preventing cutouts from acceleration is a highly useful safety feature. It would've prevented the cutout in video.

 

50 minutes ago, HEC said:

4. The cells Inmotion is using are anything but "shitty".

Not in quality, but they're shitty in this application. You're sacrificing multiple times more power (and the safety that comes with it), and much better cold weather performance for a shitty 10-20% range improvement which could be offset by simply adding more cells. It's a tradeoff that's nowhere near worth it, and they're doing it strictly for financial reasons. We're talking about companies that use woodscrews to hold plastic parts together, this type of corner cutting is nothing new.

 

50 minutes ago, HEC said:

5. Replacing the cells is not a simple swap one to one task. In addition to complete overhaul of controller, motor, cabling, cooling and basically rest of the whole EUC due to significant increase in weight, you need also take in consideration significant differences in thermal properties of higher performance cells.

Like I said, I'm not talking about swapping them. Of course when designing from scratch you'd need a more powerful controller, wiring, and possibly a bigger motor (though probably not if top speed stays the same). It actually wouldn't be a huge increase in weight. As for the "thermal properties" of the cells, they release much less heat and tolerate much lower/higher temperatures anyway.

 

50 minutes ago, HEC said:

Designing and most of all mass produce safe and reliable EUC is highly challenging task, requiring years of experience and expertise, which Inmotion undoubtedly poses. I'm really getting ticked of by all the "simple improvements" suggested by the "couch" designers with limited or zero knowledge of the overall EUC complexity.

I'm not just suggesting a "simple improvement". I'm talking about designing the wheel around high power cells which obviously has other considerations, but nothing crazy. It can and should be done, especially on big wheels.

Edited February 17, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie

[alcatraz]

According to aliexpress the V13 uses samsung 35e cells. They're 10A cells which is fairly standard. Nothing special. 

Considering it's a 30s8p pack you can thus discharge continuously at 80A (at room temp). That's quite a lot. 

 

At 15A discharge rate the cell overheats eventually (at room temp) so it's definitely not a 15A cell. Sure for short bursts it can do 15-20A (at room temp). 

The question comes, what happens when we're not at room temp. How much does the max current get cut? It could be a much as 1/3 at below freezing etc. Staying under 25A in freezing temperatures, or hot temps like 40C, that's not easy.

[InfiniteWheelie]

@alcatraz Exactly, the V13 battery pack is rated for only 6,912 W continuous, according to the cell specs. Like you said this is under ideal conditions, and will often be significantly lower in real world use.

Not many people can/need/want to go over 100 km/h on an e-wheel. So I suggest designing around high power cells and just setting the speed limit there. This would give you a wheel you likely can't overpower no matter how hard you try, as long as you don't push way past the top speed.

Edited February 17, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie

[HEC]

9 hours ago, Josiah said:

@HEC

didn't see an update on the thread about your V13.  Sorry for the redundancy if I missed it.  Did they finally figure out where it is?  

So, quick update:

After chasing the seller twice the UPS status changed to:

Quote

Investigation Opened

We've begun an investigation to locate the parcel.

The funny thing is, that location (albeit "unknown") has updated to local depot here.

Edited February 17, 2023 by HEC

[HEC]

1 hour ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

the V13 battery pack is rated for only 6,912 W continuous, according to the cell specs.

Which is still 53,6% more than 4k5W continuous rating of the motor and same batteries are more than sufficient for 10kW burst / peak rating (especially considering the sizeable amount of capacitors in the controller). That's IMO more than sufficient safety margin for advertised specs.

Edited February 17, 2023 by HEC

[2disbetter]

11 hours ago, conecones said:

You can cut some holes in it or simply remove it when not needed. But IMO the cavity in there is huge and this guard is very flimsy, it will rotate around and flex while riding so there is not going to be much air flow interruption.

Any issues printing with a TPU filament in a house with kids and a dog? Nothing toxic right? I just read it doesn't quite smell as nice. 

Like you, I agree with you on the need for this. Especially if riding it in nasty weather.