Inmotion V13 Speculation

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, SquallLHeart said:

After riding one last night I must say the hype behind it is warranted.

Where did you ride, and how would you rate the smoothness of the Sherman-S and the V13, excluding the suspension action?

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by techyiam

[Forwardnbak]

2 hours ago, SquallLHeart said:

Both are great wheels in their own different ways. Get what you think fits you best.. or get both of you have the money.. lol.

Great advice. Thanks for all the info in your posts above and work testing. 

I don’t think you can go wrong with either wheel, happy i’m on the V13. 

[Forwardnbak]

On 1/13/2023 at 11:56 AM, Impoy47 said:

 

Here is my flow set up. Fedex tracking landed today. 

Also chatting to Clark about the titan and love the v13 clark kit. 

I have affiliates for both in my video links if anyone is shopping and feels like supporting my thing. 

 

[KiwiMark]

2 hours ago, SquallLHeart said:

Both are great wheels in their own different ways. Get what you think fits you best.. or get both of you have the money.. lol.

Yeah, I wish I had the money!

My Sherman S should be here in 3 weeks or so.  My V12HT was shipped 3 weeks earlier than the Sherman S and it arrived a couple of days ago, I've put the pedals (NyloNove) and pads (Grizzla Flow Compact) on it and did a little ride today (about 15km) and it really did feel different than my RS19.  The 16" wheel is smaller and the V12HT felt more wobbly than the RS, making it hard to go too fast without risking speed wobbles.  I got up to 51.6kph, so it wasn't impossible to get up to a good speed, just a bit harder.  My V12HT is a slower wheel than the RS (high-speed) which I've had up to 64.4kph, but I don't really need my smaller wheel to be fast - especially once my Sherman S arrives.  Once I sell the RS I'll have the V12HT as my smaller wheel and the Sherman S as my daily driver.  But I do wish I had the money to buy any toy I wanted, then I'd have the V13 next as my bigger wheel with better stability to do some fast riding when the mood strikes.  There are a few wheels that I'd like to own over and above my Sherman S & V12HT, but the V13 is the first on the wish list due to the Inmotion quality and the high-speed stability and the level of safety and the IP rating for weather resistance.  Even though I haven't chosen to buy one it is clear that it is a good quality wheel and anyone that buys one will enjoy riding it.

I'm a little unsure of how suitable it is as the only wheel, but if it does everything you need from your wheel then why not.  But then again I don't want to be limited to only one PEV (what if it was needing repairs and currently out of commission?) so it seems weird to have only one wheel.  I'm happy to have 2 EUCs plus my e-MTB, but I'd be happier to be rich enough to have half a dozen EUCs to choose between.

With the V12HT I can see that it is of a higher build quality than my RS, it definitely makes me wish I could own at least one more Inmotion wheel (the V13).

[KiwiMark]

19 minutes ago, Forwardnbak said:

Here is my flow set up.

I have been playing with my Grizzla Flow Compact, which I bought for the V12HT - I like the flexibility compared to the 1-piece Clark Pads I've been using.  I also have the Grizzla Flow Large sitting here, just waiting for the Sherman S to show up.  I think Grizzla Flow has to be one of the best options available today for EUC pads.

[Taras]

Wow, I've done. Enjoy.
Text/photo later.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Kingsong Russia

[UPONIT]

20 hours ago, rebeuc said:

Dawn's range test:

The thing that surprised me was the issue with the display she had near the beginning and the mention of faults and mystery tiltback even before she really got going; is this maybe related to the fault she was talking about during the livestream that resolved itself after letting the wheel rest for a bit and then charging? I'm definitely concerned about this. (My guess is maybe the packs had mismatching voltages?)

Probably nothing to worry about. I mean, that particular wheel has been, ahem, passed around like a __________, and probably "rode hard and put away wet."

19 hours ago, mlau said:

That's a stupid test.  Charge it full, ride until it doesn't want to power the motor any more, then you have a range.  everything else is just evaluation of the wheel's battery gauge algorithm.

Agree.

[UPONIT]

21 minutes ago, Kingsong Russia said:

Wow, I've done. Enjoy.
Text/photo later.

I usually FF through teardown videos, but this one was amazing.

Modularity, shoulder screws, comprehensive gasketing, silicone potting, loctite-ed fasteners, thermal paste, wire management, clean and tidy boards, the sliders, custom everything... I only saw a couple of uses of zip-ties. Everything else was custom-molded channels and clips.

Incredible build by Lexus InMotion.

[rebeuc]

3 hours ago, Kingsong Russia said:

Wow, I've done. Enjoy.
Text/photo later.

Absolutely incredible, thank you for sharing this!

Two questions:

1. What was the mention of the right / wrong rubber piece in the suspension shortly after the 8 minute mark; was something installed wrong from the factory or was this just highlighting an easy mistake someone could make on re-assembly?
    
2. What was up with the rust in the motor near the end? As someone who has not disassembled wheels, is that concerning or is a small amount expected inside like that? Is this something to be concerned about?

[Chucka Wheelie]

11 hours ago, Eyss said:

Was this in a chat directly with him or was there a post about it? 

Has the v13 left the factory yet?

 

Direct chat mate. 

Apparently, it has.  According to Steve it was at the docks little over a week ago.  So he estimated about 3 weeks from then.  Realistically, I reckon we'll see our first V13 stock in Aus. in mid-Feb.  (If it comes earlier then it'll be a nice unexpected surprise!) 

[techyiam]

After watching the Ecodrift-Life V13 tear down video, I am starting to firm up my decision to choose the V13 as a baseline for my next wheel, for my use case. I do mainly urban commuting with no off-roading. And I ride a lot in the rain. I also do my own wrenching. 

Unless new revealing data show up, or a promising new wheel announced, the V13 may end up being my next wheel.

Initially, I was hesitant about the V13 because of its size and weight. Then, things got worse after it became known that the suspension is V11 based. So, the V13 was just another contender on the table. I even bought an Abrams to test the water of big heavy wheels. Now on hindsight, I may not have needed to learn on the Abrams first. In actual fact, the Abrams is probably a more difficult wheel to learn than the V13 or Master Pro. Even then, the jump from a V12 to an Abrams wasn't that bad. I think it was more difficult jumping from the T3 to the V12. I suspecting now perhaps that the more experienced and advanced a rider is, the easier and quicker a rider will able to acclimate to a new wheel.

For, DIY owners, the V13 is looking up. Inmotion is making the V13 even easier to service than the V12. The design elements are clean and purposeful. Just look at the weather sealed controller module inside the top compartment. External connectors are used for wiring: clean, elegant and easy to service.

Weather proofing of the wheel also looked good. When the wheel was spun, one can see that there doesn't appear to be a gap between the stationary axle and the rotating grease. Additionally, the slider overshadows much of the bearings to reduce exposure to water splashing, kicked up by the wheel. Furthermore, pedal removal was made a lot easier than on the V12, with the added benefit of weather proofing at the pivot ends.

Another positive thing is the sturdy trolley handle on the V13. Whereas, the plastic trolley handle on the Sherman-S is really as bad as what people say. Leaper Kim in the their infinite wisdom decided to use flexible plastic for the part. It's a 97 lbs wheel. What a great shame. Somehow, Gotway DNA got mixed in. Mind you, it's easy fix by factory or aftermarket.

Even the inside of the motor looked nice. The motor coil windings were tight and tidy, and the the stator structural plastic ring is thick. The motor looked also to be pinned, but not actually with pins, but rather by pressing flat washers against the plastic ring, evenly spaced around the circumference.

And this is all on top of the extra safety margins and redundancy like hall effect sensors. 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by techyiam

[SquallLHeart]

9 hours ago, techyiam said:

Where did you ride, and how would you rate the smoothness of the Sherman-S and the V13, excluding the suspension action?

 

Excluding the suspension action, and it leaves you with basically comparing a standard 20" wheel to a 22" wheel.. the larger diameter wheel usually offers you more stability at higher speeds and is not as nimble.

With the suspension though, the Sherman-S leaps ahead with regards to how cloud-like it feels. The smaller size makes it more easier to throw around.

I rode both mine and my friend's Sherman-S around a parking lot and shopping center.. hopping down curbs and down some steps to gauge the suspension performance. Going back and forth between the two to compare. The Sherman-S pedals are probably the worst thing I don't like about the wheel and at the least there are aftermarket options to replace them. The Sherman-S stock pads are trash and something I'm sure was expected to be replaced with something better anyway.

The trolley/seat on the Sherman-S is more flimsy than I care for. For seated riding, I give the V13 the upper hand because of the larger size.

[Paul g]

8 hours ago, Kingsong Russia said:

https://youtu.be/k2sZhXxL1RU

Wow, I've done. Enjoy.
Text/photo later.

    InMotion did a nice controller and it looks like it would have good cooling. 

    The suspension system is made not only from an air suspension and a dampener on each side- in total 4 pieces, but also from 2 sliding pieces on each side- 4 in total: that gives us a suspension system with 8 pieces in total! Imagine that getting dirty, and it will, and then having to clean it!

      Because it is such a closed system it has more chances of getting dirt inside and getting stuck in there more than any other system used by others. And KS S20/22 is relatively easy to disassemble, a lot fewer screws, compared to this, plus now having the roller sliders it is even better.

       InMotion uses grease between the two sliding pieces, and there is no space to add rollers in there, therefore no upgrade like S20/22 seems possible.

       My impression is they made the sliders because they wanted to provide a structure that will absorb the lateral forces to the suspension tubes and for the rotational forces that will appear on the fork during use. In the Go Geoge Go! disassembling of the Sherman S one of the tubes seems to have been bent and needed replacement because of these forces. I think the best solution is to make the suspension tubes more resistant and resilient to these forces than to opt in for sliders. It is like you have one pair of sliders, the tubes themselves, then you add to that an extra pair of sliders to make up for the weakness of the first. Why not make the first one to resist all forces and get rid of the second pair? From an engineering point of view I would always choose the simplest solution. 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Paul g

[conecones]

8 hours ago, Kingsong Russia said:

Wow, I've done. Enjoy.
Text/photo later.

Amazing job thank you.

This build quality and overall design is on another level compared to Sherman S and the new Begode platform. Made my purchase decision super easy. The concerns with slider durability is not really meaningful I see it as a maintenance part that's easy to replace.

Couple of new additions I was surprised with:

• Rubber pads/gaskets throughout, notably against the back of battery pack - antivibration purpose?
• Real bearing seal (aka oil gasket) installed. Finally we have someone that understands how to seal the bearing. Those 3D printed solutions are finicky at best, and this oil gasket is the only true solution - we see it commonly used to protect washing machine bearing against water, a proven solution.
• Cable management with specifically moulded plastic clips. No expense spared here. Unlike V12, this was actually well thought out. Everyone else still using zipties and generic metal clips that pinches wires.
• Main controller looks like it was "built for life". Makes diagnosis and replacement/repairs easy for all. Send sealed unit out to repair, receive sealed unit back, plug and play.

IMO first product to match the level of industrial design of Z10.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

32 minutes ago, Paul g said:

InMotion uses grease between the two sliding pieces

I can tell you the v11 doesn't use grease, dirt would stick to it. It just uses  nylon"like" bushings with a slight bit of play. The v13 looks to be the same during the tear down but with 6 slide bushings instead of 4.

[Tawpie]

Very impressive! No wonder it costs a fortune though, the assembly labor content is "high". The sheer number of parts means you get to be very retentive during assembly.

I wonder how much they'll ask for a replacement battery pack?

[techyiam]

20 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

The sheer number of parts means you get to be very retentive during assembly.

I guess it relative.

To my eyes, it looked fine. It was designed to be serviced too.

I am not seeing the complexity.

Every subsystem is straightforward to access and serviced.

Check out what ones has to do to change a tire on an Abrams or on a Sherman Max. Those axle bolts are akined to being welded on.

Edited January 14, 2023 by techyiam

[Taras]

6 hours ago, rebeuc said:

was something installed wrong from the factory

this way
 

 

6 hours ago, rebeuc said:

Is this something to be concerned about?

No worries. It's ok. It's only shows some sort of quality of supplier assembled motor. Rust layer is very thin and rare. I think it was a result of warehouse storage before.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Kingsong Russia

[Paul g]

@conecones and @Punxatawneyjoe I hope I am wrong  about it and it will work just fine. We need to wait for some long term reviews, but what I like is the fact EUCs start to look like some mature vehicles with the use of suspensions and metal bodies to protect the battery packs. They just need some refining and, maybe, some safer and more dense batteries. 

[Tawpie]

5 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I am not seeing the complexity.

Do the mental exercise of making the assembly instructions for a line worker that may or may not be mechanically inclined. Then compare those instructions to the ones required to assemble an older non-suspension wheel like, say, and MSX.

To put today's wheels together properly, you MUST raise your manufacturing capabilities a couple-three levels over what was necessary for an MSX. Remember cars in the 70s before Japan taught the world that it is possible to make a car with every single one of its screws and bolts actually installed, and installed correctly? Hopefully IM has retooled their assembly practices, else the best design in the world is for naught.

[soulson]

11 hours ago, Kingsong Russia said:

Wow, I've done. Enjoy.
Text/photo later.

I wish I could 'love' a video on youtube. Great work, thank you.

A few things caught my eye from this teardown:

1. I didn't manage to catch how the inverter's power electronics will be cooled. I am assuming that the power FETs are thermally connected to the "thermal conductive board" by a thermal pad due to how clean they are when shown, even though no thermal pad was shown. Then the thermal conductive board has thermal paste between it and some other component (shown on the right at 9:19 in the teardown) but this other component does not seem to have any fans, fins, nor adjacency to the moving wheel for induced airflow (as seen on the rear of the same component shown at 5:28). What's the story there?
2. At 5:47, we see a sticker on the inverter showing a rated voltage of 108VDC. That seems strange, given my understanding that the two cell stacks on this wheel are nominally 126VDC.
3. At 10:00, we can see a clear shot of the top of the inverter board. I am curious why two of the inverter phase terminals have bushings, but one does not.
4. I love the molded writing with the engineers' names shown at 10:09  I wish we could see the rest of the message. Probably something like, "The people who are crazy enough to test this thing"

[HEC]

21 hours ago, Kamikaze_K said:

inMotion has released their official kickstand and it's on the way to retailers now.  Should attach onto the back part of the chassis and should sit just below the mudguard.

Yeah, I've posted the picture of this "kick" stand few pages back in this thread (about a week after it popped out on Aliexpress) but so far I've not seen a single image of it being installed on actual V13 nor I have seen the exact spot with mounting holes for it (in detail or actually at all). And I do agree that it should have been included with V13 in the box, not as an "optional" accessory. Finally, the small holes on the side which will become in contact with ground / floor looks like prime spots for inserting some small rubber "rivets" to prevent slippage / increase traction as well as to prevent scratches on both the stand as well as the floor. Perhaps they're included (hopefully together with necessary mounting hardware to attach the stand to the wheel)? I'm still debating weather to invest $60+ in such simple piece of metal (hopefully rather than plastic) or 3 times of that for the full stand (see below) as I mainly park the wheel at home (although also at work) and almost everywhere else I either trolley it around or for brief brakes just lean it against the wall upright.

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by HEC

[rebeuc]

Two new videos.

Dawn's Power Options / Assistance explained

 

and the evX review

 

[UPONIT]

1 hour ago, soulson said:

1. At 5:47, we see a sticker on the inverter showing a rated voltage of 108VDC. That seems strange, given my understanding that the two cell stacks on this wheel are nominally 126VDC.

 

[KiwiMark]

2 hours ago, soulson said:

1. Given my understanding that the two cell stacks on this wheel are nominally 126VDC.

Not really 126V nominal.  The battery charges to 126V, so that is the terminal voltage rather than the nominal voltage.  The battery must be using 30 cells in series so that 30 x 4.2V = 126V.  But 30 x 3.7V = 111V or 30 x 3.6V = 108V (depends on whether you call the nominal voltage of these cells 3.6V or 3.7V).  For some reason all the EUC manufacturers are telling us the terminal voltage of the battery instead of the nominal voltage, it has now become the convention for these PEVs that we love.  So yeah, 84V wheels and 100.8V wheels are not really those voltages, but they work great so I don't care.