Inmotion V13 Speculation

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

IMO wrongway is wrong, he never twitches it for more than a second. I have tried this about 100 times now and cannot overlean the wheel even with grizzlas on it. The wheel dips for a second but then powers through it. I have been doing burn outs with it on dirt trying to make it cut out. Maybe at speed you can overlean it but it won't put you on your face from a dead stop. Or at least i can't make it do it. I can make it dip for a second but it recovers.

what are ur pedal settings?
i'm not talking a cut out, just forward tilt without the wheel moving forward. stuck and can't climb the shoulder of the road. no low end power. i usually push off my rails to help it get going. once it's moving  on pavement it's fine. but omg, if i took it in my pasture for slow technical riding, the first cow turd hidden in the grass and i'd be eating dirt, or worse. if the wheel has momentum, it's fine, from a cold start, it can't move it's lard ass.

 i mean, i'm close to averaging 30 miles a day up and back on my half a km road just analyzing this wheel. same road every frigging day, just like they test cars. i know what it does.

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by novazeus

[Eyss]

10 hours ago, novazeus said:

that looks like fun!

is that the stock knobby?

is that surface polished concrete?

It is good fun! My legs are sore today though. 

Yep stock knobby. 

Not quite polished concrete. Some parts are but most has been grounded. 

[novazeus]

8 minutes ago, Eyss said:

It is good fun! My legs are sore today though. 

Yep stock knobby. 

Not quite polished concrete. Some parts are but most has been grounded. 

i'd like type 3 asphalt better. that concrete is hard to fall on and i'd be scared of the wheel slipping out from underneath me with my motorcycle tire on it. i swept the leaves and oak blossoms off my curve today before riding and that allowed me to get my highest speed of 29.7 mph. normally i'd have to brake hard and stay more vertical in the corner. be careful on that concrete. wear padded shorts for sure. 

i'm a contractor and i slipped on a sloped concrete driveway once. one minute ur vertical, the next, splat. asphalt is much softer. people that live up north are use to the black ice thing and manage somehow. course when they get old they move down here.

[novazeus]

btw, last night i left the charger on all night, and as i suspected, it doesn't do squat after it shuts down. u can monitor the charging in the app. but be sure to turn the app off before unplugging the charger from the wheel or else u get an error message. the s22 doesn't trickle charge after shutting down either, but the s18 does for about two hours after turning green. 

once the v13 charger turns green, it's done. same as the s22.  and i think the error 27 i got with the s22 was from me plugging the charger back into the wheel after it was done, like an overcharge. the only way to balance the packs on the s22 will be with a special connectot bypassing the fully charged pack, which i might do if i change out the sliders. once they are out of whack, the full pack shuts down the charger.

[novazeus]

see, @NEriderhas his s22 setup correctly with aftermarket pedals. 

when they make some for the v13 with the forward bias, i might buy some. without spikes.

i ride sockless in van's waffle soled loafers because the shoe stays stuck, but i can move my feet ever so slightly inside the shoes, which gives me better control. starting and braking. but the balls of my feet are at the very front edge of the pedals. which is ok, but have a full foit plate would be nice.

that's about perfect setting. mine could come back 5mm but it's full back or full forward with the s22. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by novazeus

[soulson]

2 hours ago, Cerbera said:

Surely I can't be the first to post this here, but IM are unlocking the V13 for everyone prepared to sign a waiver, and updating several models...

Love the lab test footage. Great visual to help explain to people what will happen if you set a "speed limit" that the EUC will refuse to exceed even if its operator continues to lean forward 

[rebeuc]

7 hours ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

IMO wrongway is wrong, he never twitches it for more than a second. I have tried this about 100 times now and cannot overlean the wheel even with grizzlas on it. The wheel dips for a second but then powers through it. I have been doing burn outs with it on dirt trying to make it cut out. Maybe at speed you can overlean it but it won't put you on your face from a dead stop. Or at least i can't make it do it. I can make it dip for a second but it recovers.

I wonder if this initial poor torque everyone is talking about is not what it seems; I think there is a good chance it is fully a software thing.

I keep my v13 in a motorcycle tire chock stand, where to get it out I have to turn on the wheel and roll it back over the levered tire holder that is keeping it in place.

I noticed that when I first turn on the v13, it starts balancing immediately. However, the first time I pull on the handle and try to pull it out of the tire chock the wheel will dip down as if it's going to fall forward. I then let up for a second, let it recover itself, and then the next time I pull on the wheel it works properly and stays upright and lets the chock lever move.

Maybe the phenomenon I am talking about is different, but I can't help but feel it is related.

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, rebeuc said:

then the next time I pull on the wheel it works properly and stays upright and lets the chock lever move.

Hmm. I wonder whether the V13 has a bug in firmware.

Edited April 8, 2023 by techyiam

[Punxatawneyjoe]

8 hours ago, novazeus said:

what are ur pedal settings?

I have it set to 100% hardness, 45% accel. assist and 60% braking assist. I have not tried to power out of a ditch from a dead stop so i cant speak to that. I had my v11 cut out once doing the same thing. I feel like inmotion wheels don't like to give max power to the wheel when it's not moving. Maybe it is a software thing like Techyiam said. In all of my tests though i never had it dip 20° more like 5°.  A few videos that i have seen have the "dip" in it also when climbing steep hills, it dips for a second and then catches up, it's definitely surprising of you aren't ready for it. I don't particularly care for it doing that, so hopefully they can change that behavior. The weather is getting better around here so i will be doing much more off road stuff with the wheel, so we will see.

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I have not tried to power out of a ditch

like i've said, i'm nearly at 1000km in 21 days on my half a km length road. 1km is one up and back. so that's 1000 starts from the same spot at my wheel compound where my keter outside storage boxes are. so routine i don't even think about it. 30 miles i did last night is 48 km, so last night i did 48 starts from the same spot headed to my gate at the edge of my property. overpowering the wheel happened on my second trip to my gate. so it isn't a warming up issue. there's obviously a big misconception on what powerpads do. powerpads would make the condition worse because if u apply more force forward and the motor can't keep the wheel vertical, self balance, u really are gonna faceplant. because i use foot pressure and smoothly apply force, that's what saved me, plus grabbing my 2x4 rail when it dipped forward. if i was a rider that did a big lean to get moving forward, i'd probably broken an arm last night. the wheel doesn't turn off, it just doesn't have the power to move if any obstruction like the shoulder of my road coming out of the sugar sand. i've never over powered any wheel i've owned, ever. i'm not a leaner, just a little to get going, mostly pressing down with the balls of my feet. if i had a powerful wheel i trusted, and i was racing, or climbing steep hills, yeah, powerpads would help u apply forward bias to the wheel, but if the power isn't available, u will overpower the wheel and faceplant. there's a good demonstration of that in wrongways video. obviously inmotion knows there's a problem because the fancy mode is suppose to add more torque. they need to do it now. starting from pavement with no obstructions it's weak, but u won't overpower it, unless u do what wrongway did with his ankles or feet. he demonstated it that way so he didn't faceplant. if he had done a full send leaning forward using the powerpads, he would have faceplanted. 

powerpads put more demand or stress on the motor and gets u closer to a cutout or overlean. applying foot pressure and smooth acceleration keeps u safer. 

i'm hardly climbing out of a ditch trying to start from my sugar sand shoulders. after that happened, i made sure the tire was on pavement for the next 46 starts from that location. when i return from my gate, my road is just slightly uphill from where i start from, and it's challenging every time getting it moving the first few feet. takes alot of balancing skill. hip muscles. i just thought it was the weight of the wheel and the rounded profile of my 40psi michelin pilot street 2 tire, which does make it more difficult to balance than the flatter profile on the stock tire which most run 10-15 psi lower than the sidewall pressure states. 

i'm not as talented as wrong way to do riding overleans like he did, but i can do overleans with it using the trolley handle and i'll do a video today demonstrating the problem. i'm just warning people so they don't need an emergency trip to the dentist or worse. i was glad i was all suited up and wearing an helmet. it bother me so much i had nightmares about it last night. faceplanting, or nearly faceplanting, is a scary experience. especially when that's the last thing on my mind. now that i know for sure that the v13 has no torque from a standstill, and it's not me or the tire, i can do a work around. like it needs a downhill ramp to get moving or a big push off from my rails.

once the v13 gets going, it has plenty of power. i'm hitting almost 30mph in less than 500 feet which is plenty fast enough. and i can smoothly brake it also. idk about super hard braking like wrong way demonstated. i'm not flexible enough or too tall to grab the front handle, and wouldn't want to fall on my tailbone anyway. best i can do is throw my right leg off and do a drag like u do with racing inline skates which have no brakes, just the friction of the wheels being dragged sideways. but if i was trying to use a wheel like some do in vehicular traffic, which i think is insane, then braking with the v13 would certainly shorten ur lifespan. 

riding in my pastures is slow balancing low torque demanding of the wheel. u can't see the obstacles buried in the grass. hardened cow turds, sticks, branches, gopher holes etc. u could run like a bat out of hell for awhile and sooner or later u will catch air like euc girl but ur landing spit might be a gopher hole and u will splat face first. so the wheel has to slowly power over these obstuctions and it takes alot of upper body strength and balancing to make that happen. a mile in my pastures is like a thousand miles practice on pavement, maybe more. a mile is about all ur body can take. it is slow and tedious. there's no way in hell the v13 could ever do that. the s18 isn't powerful enough. the s22 is.

i'm certain it's a software problem. inmotion just set it up for high speed and sacrificed high torque, or standard torque on the low end. don't think this won't happen to u, especially if ur a powerpad user.

[novazeus]

great news!

i was wrong, or at least 90% wrong and i owe an apology to inmotion and his team.

after my morning ride and careful experimentation and evaluation, what i experienced was forward pedal dip. inmotion is partially wrong as well but i understand why they did what they did.

i drive a wheel using my feet. with the v13 foot plates centered on the wheel, my foot is hanging over the front from the base of my toes. so i’m already in somewhat of a precarious position, any forward pedal dip causes me panic because i’ve never felt it before.

inmotion designed the wheel with it’s big fat knobby with no street tire option. i had neltrek install this michelin pilot street 2 tire on it before shipping it to me. i’m not stupid, living on a cattle ranch i’m all about tires and how they behave, fully inflated and deflated.

i tried to recreate the pedal dip before riding by first starting running over a piece of hose on my road, trolleying it. not a problem. then i tried it with a piece of wood, still no problem.

wrongway and i experienced the pedal dip i think for similar reasons. he was on the stock knobby on pavement, i was on my super hard motorcycle tire starting out of sugar sand which is like snow but dry. 

what i think happened to both of us is tire slippage and the wheels algorithm has a little bit of lag in delivering more power to the motor. it corrects itself almost immediately, but if ur already hanging off the front of the pedals, and ur doing a forward lean to get going, that slight bit of hesitation, a milisecond, could faceplant u.

i know lowering the tire pressure makes a wheel easier to ride, the same way hitting golf balls downwind can straighten a fade or a draw. i have mine setup so it’s the most difficult way to ride it, so if i ever actually have to use it for transportation off the ranch, dropping the tire pressure to 35psi will make it more controllable. i did the same with my 9bz10 with it’s hard tire, the first wheel ever to have the weight carrying capacity  they need. luckily wheel manufacturers finally realized they needed better tires and now they put tires on that don’t get pinch flats and the psi can be lower.

i loved my 10f and it’s algorithmic power delivery better than any wheel i had ever ridden. (i don’t know if i’m expressing this correctly because it’s way above my pay grade) i just know i could think it, and the wheel did what i wanted.

like jon purcell’s excellent video talking about his stock sherm s knobby comparing it to the michelin, “it’s not all rainbows and unicorns”.

if i had been on the v13’s stock knobby, at 35psi, coming out of the sugar sand, there would have been no tire slippage and no pedal dip. but because i modified the wheel, the tire slipped and there’s a slight delay in the powerband down low so the pedals momentarily dip forward.

like i’ve said, i’m a smooth accelerating foot driver, but like with  the s18, it needs a pretty good lean to get it going. the s22 requires none because i moved the pedals down and forward. but it is harder to stop, so if i was inmotion designing wheels for the masses, i would probably design it exactly the way they did, although i know knobbys can grab pavement and pull u off track. but if i had to choose between rapid acceleration and new riders being able to stop, stopping is more important. course i probably wouldn’t build a 56 mph wheel either. ie the waiver that will need to be signed after 700km.

tried to do a thirty mile ride but Bob got frustrated at mile 23, i swear he has an internal clock, and broke out of his compound, giving me a heart atteck.

i did get enough experimentation done, doing leans on pavement and the wheel had no problems with pedal dip whatsoever. i think wrongways pedal dip also came from the stock knobby sliipage on pavement. that could happen on smooth type 3 asphalt that my motorcycle tire would love but no so much with a knobby. this isn’t a cut out or overlean, it’s merely a pedal dip. but if ur already hanging off the front edge the heart attack is identical. good reminder if nothing else, always wear a helmet. we are all beta testers on devices that may or may not be used for safe transportation. 

since joining this forum in 2017, i’ve seen so many people injure themselves badly, and those injuries never completely go away.

my only suggestion for inmotion would be to look at how the motor spools up down low to reduce pedal dip when the tire slips.

i’m not a big fan of aftermarket parts but i’ll be changing my foot plates to forward biased ones when somebody starts making them. that’s for my style of riding.

in a perfect world, the footplates would be completely adjustable front to back and up and down in small increments. my s22 foot plates would be better about 5mm rearward. so instead of my toes hanging off the front, my heel is closer to the rear.

different riders, different terrains, different wheels, different climates. one size doesn’t fit all. u pick what u like and keeps u safe. i know riders would have serious difficulties riding my wheels, but i like the challenge and the difficulty to make me a better rider. in the wild, the mean streets, u need all the safety u can get, why when harley offered abs brakes designed specifically for their bikes, i jumped on them. previously cops had abs designed for cars in one of their saddle bags.

the most important thing i learned, and partly the reason i ride so much, is tempering Bob to me not being with him for a couple of hours, even though he sees me every 90 seconds. i know now, Bob at 165 pounds and bite force of 743 psi, he can escape and go look for me. so if i go to the dentist, i'll hook up my longer running and more powerful generator and lock his ass in our container. if i ride again tn, i might experiment with that new approach. this new container is pretty well insulated so even if the ac broke or the generator stopped, it would get hot in here, but not over 90 degrees. when u have been with ur puppy 24/7 going on 7 years in december, u get pretty attached to each other. 

a good learning day, now shopping for new footplates and hoping for the oportunity to try inmotions new fancy software. i hope it's reversible if i don't like it, now that i've learned what the stock software does with its very slight hesitation of delivering juice if the tire slips. plus i'm never riding without padded shorts, helmet, knee pads, wrist guards, gloves,  and i love my leatt 6.5 full body protection, light and cool. i need to sell my fancy leatt knee braces however unless i find wider footplates because i hate my legs touching the wheel. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by novazeus

[mrelwood]

WrongWay’s tire definitely didn’t slip when he did the ankle flick.

 Also there’s some contradiction with your theories. If your pedal dip was caused by a tire slip, no amount of motor power or how fast it gets deployed will reduce the pedal dip caused by tire slippage. If there’s no traction, there’s no balancing, simple as that.

I also have hard time believing that you’d have tire slippage that you didn’t recognize at first. It’s pretty darn obvious when the wheel increases the speed of a slipping tire very fast in order to balance.

You also talk about pedal dipping and overleaning as separate events. Pedals dip when the wheel gets overloaded. The wheel only tries to stay horizontal. If it has traction but can’t stay horizontal, the wheel couldn’t provide enough power at that moment. That’s called an overlean.

 Can’t wait to see your video about how you would break the handle of an overburdened V13 while trolleying.

 

@novazeus, I also ask that you would post long stories about your pastures and life events in a separate thread. They don’t belong here.

Edited April 8, 2023 by mrelwood

[novazeus]

5 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

WrongWay’s tire definitely didn’t slip when he did the ankle flick.

so what do u think caused wrongways forward dip. and by overlean i'm thinking cutout. his didn't cutout, neither did mine. 

[novazeus]

7 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Can’t wait to see your video about how you would break the handle of an overburdened V13 while trolleying.

can' do it right now, later today. it's too damn hot. just using pasture riding as an analogy. 

[novazeus]

9 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

You also talk about pedal dipping and overleaning as separate events. Pedals dip when the wheel gets overloaded

have u ever ridden a v13? just curious. and curious how on pavement i can not make it pedal dip or overlean, even starting with an obstuction in front of the tire. i deduce tire slippage because the tire is exceptionally hard and only happens in the sugar sand.

[mrelwood]

7 minutes ago, novazeus said:

so what do u think caused wrongways forward dip.

Lack of power is the only thing that can cause a pedal dip like that. Either the wheel is slow to react to fast changes in the input commands, or there’s a current limiter that’s set a bit too low.

7 minutes ago, novazeus said:

and by overlean i'm thinking cutout. his didn't cutout, neither did mine. 

They also are separate things. If you lean forward harder than the wheel can stay horizontal for, you have overleaned. No matter how little. Cutout from an overlean only happens if the overlean dips the pedals forward for 45 degrees or more.

1 minute ago, novazeus said:

have u ever ridden a v13?

Haven’t had the chance, no.

1 minute ago, novazeus said:

how on pavement i can not make it pedal dip or overlean, even starting with an obstuction in front of the tire. i deduce tire slippage because the tire is exceptionally hard and only happens in the sugar sand.

Seems clear that in your case it’s indeed tire slippage. But how in the earth you didn’t notice that the wheel is using thousands of watts of power to accelerate a slipping tire?? The dust clouds alone should be a pretty clear sign.

[novazeus]

21 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Lack of power is the only thing that can cause a pedal dip like that. Either the wheel is slow to react to fast changes in the input commands, or there’s a current limiter that’s set a bit too low.

They also are separate things. If you lean forward harder than the wheel can stay horizontal for, you have overleaned. No matter how little. Cutout from an overlean only happens if the overlean dips the pedals forward for 45 degrees or more.

Haven’t had the chance, no.

Seems clear that in your case it’s indeed tire slippage. But how in the earth you didn’t notice that the wheel is using thousands of watts of power to accelerate a slipping tire?? The dust clouds alone should be a pretty clear sign.

just shot a video trolleying the v13 out of Bob's spot at our compound gate. u will see the wheel isn't helping me at all. i'm gonna try later using the handles instead of the trolley handle. so u think the dip was caused by the wheel's software? trust me, i never exert much lean on a wheel. no powerpads. barely a lean. only on the s18 have i leaned more aggressively, for whatever reason. shorter pedals, lack of torque, idk?

it's like the wheel isn't helping me at all. maybe the fulcrum point of the handle doesn't put enough forward bias on the wheel to make it move forward. it's like i'm pushing 118 pounds all by myself.

https://youtu.be/T3J2DNzPgo4

[Punxatawneyjoe]

It's just delayed but you definitely can force it to cut out up against something. I was able to do it a few times but don't all wheels cut out if you overburden them and the wheel isn't moving?

https://streamable.com/7nlnes

 

[novazeus]

20 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

It's just delayed but you definitely can force it to cut out up against something. I was able to do it a few times but don't all wheels cut out if you overburden them and the wheel isn't moving?

https://streamable.com/7nlnes

 

good demo. idk. i didn't just hallucinate almost faceplanting, and i've owned 11 wheels and only ridden them here in a not very stressful place, except the place i'm not allowed to mention anymore, and never once did i ever come close to faceplanting like yesterday. from a standstill or riding at the top speed limits of any wheel. i don't lean much at all and don't like or use powerpads. seems weird i'd have this new terrifying experience on the most powerful wheel ever made just doing a start on a full battery like i had done almost a thousand times previously.

testing it today on pavement, i did big leans and it kept up perfectly. i looked like the mcdonalds commercial. 21 days of ownership/riding. 

here's another short vid concentrating on the tire but u can hear the handle getting abused. 

i'm gonna try doing it by lifting on the rear handle. that should tell the motor to move forward.

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by novazeus

[mrelwood]

5 minutes ago, novazeus said:

just shot a video trolleying the v13

There seems to be a few misunderstandings going on here. Mostly about physics and self-balancing, probably some about terminology as well.

5 minutes ago, novazeus said:

the wheel isn't helping me at all.

Correct. EUCs don’t “help“ when trolleying or riding them uphill. Read this aloud a few times, or do whatever it takes for you to internalize the phrase:

 The only thing EUCs try or even can try to do, is to stay upright.

 They don’t try to help you get up the hill, they don’t try to accelerate you as fast as possible, etc. They only try to stay upright.

The V13 is a heavy ass wheel. For it to get up an incline, you still need to create enough forward tilting torque that the wheel has to respond to it with a large enough power to get it up the hill. The forward force you need to create for a 22” wheel to get up a steep incline is large. There’s no way around it.

All this is about the physics of any self-balancing vehicle. It’s got nothing to do with a specific firmware.

I didn’t see any pedal dipping, only very little tire slippage, and zero signs of lack of power. Remember, all the power is being used for staying upright. And your V13 succeeded in all of it’s attempts marvelously.

5 minutes ago, novazeus said:

so u think the dip was caused by the wheel's software?

In WrongWay’s case, probably.

5 minutes ago, novazeus said:

it's like i'm pushing 118 pounds all by myself.

Which you indeed are. The wheel just tries to stay upright.

 

[novazeus]

2 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

There seems to be a few misunderstandings going on here. Mostly about physics and self-balancing, probably some about terminology as well.

Correct. EUCs don’t “help“ when trolleying or riding them uphill. Read this aloud a few times, or do whatever it takes for you to internalize the phrase:

 The only thing EUCs try or even can try to do, is to stay upright.

 They don’t try to help you get up the hill, they don’t try to accelerate you as fast as possible, etc. They only try to stay upright.

The V13 is a heavy ass wheel. For it to get up an incline, you still need to create enough forward tilting torque that the wheel has to respond to it with a large enough power to get it up the hill. The forward force you need to create for a 22” wheel to get up a steep incline is large. There’s no way around it.

All this is about the physics of any self-balancing vehicle. It’s got nothing to do with a specific firmware.

I didn’t see any pedal dipping, only very little tire slippage, and zero signs of lack of power. Remember, all the power is being used for staying upright. And your V13 succeeded in all of it’s attempts marvelously.

In WrongWay’s case, probably.

Which you indeed are. The wheel just tries to stay upright.

 

so what caused me almost faceplanting yesterday after previously doing the same thing a thousand times and not having that experience?

[Punxatawneyjoe]

7 minutes ago, novazeus said:

here's another short vid concentrating on the tire but u can hear the handle getting abused. 

I saw it earlier, you definitely can't use the trolly handle to go up anything over 5° incline . It's just to weak, you will break it. Going up my front stairs, i keep the trolly handle in my rt hand and stand in front of it, grab the front bar and pull it towards me and it climbs the step great. At the accountant's office that has 5 steps , i just got behind it and pushed it up them, it climbed them well.

[techyiam]

11 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The forward force you need to create for a 22” wheel to get up a steep incline is large. There’s no way around it.

@novazeus

I can confirm this on my 22" Abrams. Try pushing on the rear lift handle / crash guard from behind. It can take quite a lot of push force to generate enough input torque for the motor to start assisting, depending on the obstacle.

[novazeus]

yeah, i'm waiting on my next video to upload where i pushed down on the front bar and lifted on the rear handle trying to recreate a rider's forward lean. i need an 185 pound mannequin to really replicate what happened because i'm not doing it. the tire does spin in this next video but no forward pedal dip/overlean what ever nomeclature u choose. whatever happened, i know i won't be starting off the sugar sand ever again, even though i did it literally a thousand times without incident. also, this is a much deeper hole than where i spin around at my compound. i bet the hole caused by my turning is less than a inch deep. maybe the asphalt lip and lack of traction caused it, but i couldn't replicate it me not being on the wheel and no desire to replicate it being on the wheel. i never want that feeling again. but i was brave enough to do big power leans on pavement today and it worked perfectly. if there is a software problem, i sure would like somebody to figure it out before i die! 

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by novazeus

[novazeus]

does anybody know of aftermarket foot plates that have a forward bias for the v13?