INMOTION V12

[fbhb]

5 hours ago, RArtem said:

HY5012W（TO-247）aren't these mosfets being used on Begode 100V wheels?

 

5 hours ago, supercurio said:

Yes indeed as well as Veteran Sherman, hence proven.

Also add King Song S18 and now the S20 to the list of EUC's using (TO-247)

[RagingGrandpa]

8 hours ago, supercurio said:

reply from Inmotion:
HY5012W（TO-247）and  HGP039N15M（T0-220）

Ah nice, both of them are certainly an improvement!

(and HY5012 was already studied below)

On 1/7/2022 at 3:21 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

Do these common Inmo and Gotway FETs meet our needs for output current?
... and if their datasheets are to be believed, the difference is huge.

TO247 (Hooyi) is slightly more efficient... but both seem like reasonable choices.

[Cress]

I want to share an email exchange between myself and Jason at eWheels because I think Distributors are a route to communicate with Manufacturers, have experience negotiating with Manufacturers and are interested in helping customers.  I didn't expect @Cecily Inmotion to be as helpful as she has been but we can hope hope this continues.  The V12 is a terrific example of good EUC at a good price EXCEPT the motor controller flaw that slipped into early production.  I won't list flaws that mucked-up other good EUCs.  I want to tell the Manufacturer about the next flaw knowing that customer communication with EUC manufactures has been problematic, still pushing for technical and functional progress of EUCs.

eWheel Sales <sales@ewheels.com>
To:richard
Cc:eWheel Sales
Fri, Feb 25 at 2:44 PM
The mfgrs tend to be especially coy on sharing specifics, but after screwing up at such a monumental level, there's not much sympathy, everyone has a right to know! Now, that this has been addressed, it should be the foremost capacity being advertised 😂

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 at 15:34, 'richard cress' via Sales <sales@ewheels.com> wrote:

    Jason;

    You might follow Internet posts (ElectricUnicycle.org ) or you may hear from other sources.   I put up a post referencing HGB MOSFET, edited the post three minutes later because I      realized the company packages two versions of the same semiconductor; one version will fit the original heat sink (HGP), the other version is for an alternate heat sink mounting (HGB)   
Technical discussions about EUCs attract engineers and engineers jump on details.  Inmotion seems close to a solution, no matter the heat-sink, most likely TO-220 matching the original heat-sink.

Thank you for the update.

EUC development and manufacturing will slowly progress and depend heavily on distributors to link buyers with manufacturers.   Good luck.  I can't wait to see what happens next.

  /Richard

    On Friday, February 25, 2022, 11:44:55 AM EST, eWheel Sales <sales@ewheels.com> wrote:

    Indeed, by the time those HGB MOSFETs become available it will have been about a year & a half since the initial announcement, not great by any standard to have a fully functioning Wheel We're trying to work with Inmotion in offering some sort of accessory package—pads, seat & pedals—for existing V12 Customers to help offset this situation. The V12 driverboard is cooled passively using the large metal heat-sink. This works well with MOSFETS with a low resistance/Rds values, the controller design is constrained with using the TO-220 MOSFET package.

    Jason 

 

[supercurio]

And following Jason's mail posted by @Cress (thanks again) I'm gonna throw a curve ball here with:

 

Q:

"l imagine that the HY5012W would need some redesign of the board layout and/or heatsink, right?"

A:

"Yes"

 

At the moment I don't know more than that, but it made me wonder if they're preparing 2 different boards, one for the replacements designed to fit the same heatsink hence TO-220, and a next one with a redesigned layout and heatsink using the HY5012W (TO-247)

I really like how Jason put it, on how Inmotion must be more transparent now and welcome third party feedback and evaluation.

[Cress]

I slept on what @supercurio  said - - -

12 hours ago, supercurio said:

At the moment I don't know more than that, but it made me wonder if they're preparing 2 different boards, one for the replacements designed to fit the same heatsink hence TO-220, and a next one with a redesigned layout and heatsink using the HY5012W (TO-247)

I really like how Jason put it, on how Inmotion must be more transparent now and welcome third party feedback and evaluation.

Inmotion is telling different people different things and transparency doesn't seem to be Inmotion's goal.  I won't complain if they do a complete V12 redesign around the HY5012W, would be time consuming and expensive, possibly explain the time-lag.

I'm impressed that most people watching progress of the V12, including Distributors who negotiate with all sides, see the same problems with the process, want the manufacturer to succeed and understand ways to make the process better.  It's the same as making airplanes fly, depends on Manufacturer modifications from one model to the next and buyers' feedback on each change.  A person or private group can build an airplane but can't complete a development process in the way manufacturers working with consumers have done with airplanes and most other technology.

I'm happy with any communication with Inmotion.  Possibly the V12 will succeed and whatever comes next will benefit from the V12.  And who knows what happens next ?

Edited February 26, 2022 by Cress

[supercurio]

@Cress I feel like this situation is pushing Inmotion way out of their comfort zone since the beginning, and they're not following comprehensive established rules on how to handle it.

I could observe during this past months that information shared with distributors was very scarce, and they were giving only limited trust to the feedback they were getting from their channel, easily discarding, or at least missing key events including the first V12 which died after passing the stress test.

Likewise, the communication with distributors I could see was often defensive and behind ongoing progress, compared to the constructive discussion I could have with Cecily who's the community liaison person, which lead to tangible results quicker instead.

To me, Inmotion is still uncomfortable and with an element of uncertainty regarding commitment to resellers and final customers until they have secured solutions they really trust themselves. And it seems fairly reasonable, right but there's room for improvement on owning their strategy themselves on how to solve the crisis and communicating more openly with the community in order to rebuild trust.

Edited February 26, 2022 by supercurio

[Cress]

@supercurio    Your idea that Manufacturers 'Own their strategy for resolving the crisis, communicate openly with the community to rebuild trust' sounds like the most excellent advice and I don't know how to get it done.  Inmotion is moving toward your idea, you are talking with Cecily.  Inmotion has a learning opportunity and if they get a positive response they'll make adjustments (and I agree the evidence isn't clear now).

I think Jason's  positive outlook at eWheels predicts success for the EUC concept and EUC industry because no matter the deficiencies - EUCs sell.  

The range of design problems, battery fire / motor controller failure / rim and foot-rest failure will resolve when Manufacturers do engineering reviews.  I can't think of a specific solution for inattention to engineering.  The EUC community has to adjust expectations for reliability and safety of every new EUC.  We can expect uneven progress because manufacturers correct design faults discovered by users.

Regardless of Inmotion's choices on the V12 motor controller we are doing a positive thing by publicly discussing the issue and putting Inmotion on notice that it's important.  

It's fair to say EUC users are a reachable, informed group, witness social media including this forum and view-counts of YouTube EUC reviews.  EUC Distributors are Manufacturer's big customers.  We have a lobbying tool, a combination of informed EUC users and EUC Distributors.  We want a stronger response from the Manufacturer but EUC evolution is early.  As sales increase manufacturers compete, strengthening the influence of EUC users and Distributors.

Current EUC Manufacturers are small shops serving a limited number of users compared to a larger number of users that would attract advanced manufacturers.

I'd like to have a plan to make Manufacturers 'Own their strategy for resolving the crisis, communicate openly with the community to rebuild trust' but my thinking comes back to sales.  When EUC sales are huge all problems are fixable.  

I'm riding whatever I find.

 

[supercurio]

On 2/25/2022 at 8:27 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

Ah nice, both of them are certainly an improvement!

(and HY5012 was already studied below)

TO247 (Hooyi) is slightly more efficient... but both seem like reasonable choices.

In short, from your comparative look at the safe operating area for 80% duty, 40 µs

IPP023N10N5 - V12 batch 1 & batch 2
30A max
Drain-source on-state resistance: 2.3 mΩ

HGP039N15M - guess: replacement boards
180A max (approx)
Drain-source on-state resistance: 3.6 mΩ

HY5012W/A - guess: future batch 3 and onwards
600A max
Drain-source on-state resistance: 2.9 mΩ

So the HGP039N15M would be good enough for the replacement board, fixing the issue with the current MOSFET which end up pushed outside of the safe operating area.
It would run a bit less efficiently and warmer than the original boards. By how much do you think @RagingGrandpa. Would it be something measurable?

Then later on, with a re-worked board and more efficient larger MOSFETs HY5012W would have even more headroom, for the future V12 in the 3-5 years to come.

[Tawpie]

47 minutes ago, supercurio said:

It would run a bit less efficiently and warmer than the original boards.

The increased on resistance will only be a problem if the heatsink was optimally designed for a maximum of 2.3 mΩ, which it probably wasn't. I would assume there's some (considerable?) margin since overheating of the existing V12 hasn't been observed. Whether or not the heatsink can deal with a 50% increased heat load needs actual testing... modeling is one thing but when you're closer to the edge I believe you have to test. Maybe a number of wheels (dirty ones) in the desert (high ambient temperature, low RH) slogging their way through soft sand at 8 km/hr?

Does the V12 have a fan?

Edited March 2, 2022 by Tawpie

[supercurio]

9 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

The increased on resistance will only be a problem if the heatsink was optimally designed for a maximum of 2.3 mΩ, which it probably wasn't. I would assume there's some margin since overheating of the existing V12 hasn't been observed. Whether or not the heatsink can deal with a 50% increased heat load needs actual testing... modeling is one thing but when you're closer to the edge I believe you have to test. Maybe number of wheels (dirty ones) in the desert (high ambient temperature, low RH) slogging their way through soft sand at 8 km/hr?

Does the V12 have a fan?

Thanks @Tawpie

When presented like that, a 50% increase in heat created by the MOSFETs sounds significant after all.
The V12 is passively cooled, with a beefy heatsink which gets airflow from the tire rotation.

Edited March 2, 2022 by supercurio

[Tawpie]

28 minutes ago, supercurio said:

The V12 is passively cooled, with a beefy heatsink which gets airflow from the tire rotation.

I tend to like these kinds of solutions personally, but only because I assume that they've been designed/tested to ensure sufficient cooling even when covered by a leaf or caked in dried mud. But that doesn't mean that you can automatically handle increased heat input—it just sort of means you've maybe or probably considered poor cooling conditions and perhaps some of the margin you allocated to dried mud can be safely reallocated to the added heat input. Added heat and dried mud... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

How's that for waffling?

Edited March 2, 2022 by Tawpie

[RagingGrandpa]

20 hours ago, supercurio said:

IPP023N10N5 - V12 batch 1 & batch 2
Drain-source on-state resistance: 2.3 mΩ

HGP039N15M - guess: replacement boards
Drain-source on-state resistance: 3.6 mΩ

It would run a bit warmer than the original boards. By how much do you think?

Bear in mind: Rds-ON varies with temperature and other things... but let's assume for a moment that those specsheet values are real.

It's a 56% increase in resistance.

At 100A/FET (the overlean worst-case) it means an extra 13W (peak) per FET. And usually there are 4 FETs participating in the high-current path, so 52W total. 
To put 52W in context, the extra power is the same as a typical laptop CPU running at max load. It's not nothing, but still something we can deal with. 
And this is the overlean condition. Normal riding is less than half of this load.

And, an extra ~20W average loss is a very tiny amount relative to the battery capacity. It means about 1% less riding range.

Regarding overheating, since ohmic dissipation is linear with resistance, a 56% increase in resistance simply means a 56% increase in "temperature rise above ambient".
For example: on a 23° standard day, if we find the V12 cruising at 50kph stabilizes at 40°C [ambient + 17°] with the original FETs,
the updated design would reach 50°C [ambient + 26°] (same-route same-rider same-heatsink). 
If that example comes true, we're fine.

So the question becomes "how much headroom does the current heatsink provide"... real riding data with original controllers should answer it.
 

20 hours ago, Tawpie said:

there's some (considerable?) margin since overheating of the existing V12 hasn't been observed.
Whether or not the heatsink can deal with a 50% increased heat load needs actual testing... 

Right, but, I think we can say a lot just from knowing the typical temperature rise values (above the ambient) of the original V12's. Perhaps there are some old EUC World tour recordings from riders already, that could show it? We'd just need to ask the rider to estimate the outdoor temperature for those days...

Edited March 3, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[spitfire1337]

1 hour ago, RagingGrandpa said:

So the question becomes "how much headroom does the current heatsink provide"... real riding data with original controllers should answer it.
 

Right, but, I think we can say a lot just from knowing the typical temperature rise values (above the ambient) of the original V12's. Perhaps there are some old EUC World tour recordings from riders already, that could show it? We'd just need to ask the rider to estimate the outdoor temperature for those days...

Here's some ride data I had from 12-25 as well as ambient temps for that day if it would help figure that out.

 

EUC World Temps:

EUC World | spitfire1337 was on tour 2 months ago - 44.1 mi in Spring Hill

 

Ambient temps:

Tampa, FL Weather History | Weather Underground (wunderground.com)

[RagingGrandpa]

2 minutes ago, spitfire1337 said:

EUC World | spitfire1337 was on tour 2 months ago - 44.1 mi in Spring Hill
https://euc.world/tour/605326165778022

A fast ride on an average day... reaching [115 - 75] = 40°F above ambient. So with the new controller, expect 62° over ambient, like ~140°F for that ride.
So the new controller should be great for you!

But also consider a 105°F day: now this ride becomes ~170°F, reaching the limit. So, as always- how you ride and where you ride makes a big difference.

[Silverfish]

a smattering of notifications from various resellers between the 22nd and 24th. Haven't heard from mine, and I haven't heard anyone else say anything similar since. Hopefully its still in the works for other resellers. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Silverfish

[supercurio]

It looks like some resellers opted for not saying anything. I even chatted with a French reseller (Inmotion France / New Walking) who still pretend that the problem was "solved" by the stress test, and that they didn't plan to take any further action.
Which is complete BS, and I don't expect it will last.

@Silverfish I would suggest you contact your distributor without waiting, just in case Inmotion forgot them or they would think about keeping a bunch of V12 replacement boards obtained for free, to sell later or anything stupid like that.

[Silverfish]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

It looks like some resellers opted for not saying anything. I even chatted with a French reseller (Inmotion France / New Walking) who still pretend that the problem was "solved" by the stress test, and that they didn't plan to take any further action.
Which is complete BS, and I don't expect it will last.

@Silverfish I would suggest you contact your distributor without waiting, just in case Inmotion forgot them or they would think about keeping a bunch of V12 replacement boards obtained for free, to sell later or anything stupid like that.

I'll give it a couple weeks, I already mailed them recently and don't and a don't feel like a CYA response so soon. Thx!

[jimjam.nyc]

15 hours ago, supercurio said:

It looks like some resellers opted for not saying anything. I even chatted with a French reseller (Inmotion France / New Walking) who still pretend that the problem was "solved" by the stress test, and that they didn't plan to take any further action.
Which is complete BS, and I don't expect it will last.

@Silverfish I would suggest you contact your distributor without waiting, just in case Inmotion forgot them or they would think about keeping a bunch of V12 replacement boards obtained for free, to sell later or anything stupid like that.

Even though i have heard from ewheels via email conversations i have had.. I dont believe they sent anything out "officially." So i think @supercurio is right on with the thought to contact without waiting..  

While i think the news is great that the problem will be addressed.. Its quite odd there is not some coordinated official response sent out from inmotion or distributors, so everyone is on the same page.. 

I guess communication is still a complicated thing within this industry. 

Some distributors may wait until they get more concrete times on shipping, etc.. but i think it would a be a good gesture (especially for the larger ones) to blast an email out to their customers who purchased a v12

[Steve Evans]

1 hour ago, jimjam.nyc said:

Even though i have heard from ewheels via email conversations i have had.. I dont believe they sent anything out "officially." So i think @supercurio is right on with the thought to contact without waiting..  

While i think the news is great that the problem will be addressed.. Its quite odd there is not some coordinated official response sent out from inmotion or distributors, so everyone is on the same page.. 

I guess communication is still a complicated thing within this industry. 

Some distributors may wait until they get more concrete times on shipping, etc.. but i think it would a be a good gesture (especially for the larger ones) to blast an email out to their customers who purchased a v12

for what its worth, i just sent ewheels and email letting them know i want the new driver board when it becomes available. i did this just in case they have some kind of list of recipients that i could be put on in case there is an initial shortage of those driver boards.

[Silverfish]

2 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I guess communication is still a complicated thing within this industry. 

Some distributors may wait until they get more concrete times on shipping, etc.. but i think it would a be a good gesture (especially for the larger ones) to blast an email out to their customers who purchased a v12

We'll see. It might also be InMotion is only doing this for retailers with enough clout to be a problem for them.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Silverfish

[supercurio]

1 hour ago, Silverfish said:

We'll see. It might also be InMotion is only doing this for retailers with enough clout to be a problem for them.

It's not what I've seen so far, and that would be entirely unacceptable. I don't think it's the plan.

[Steve Evans]

fyi... got this email from ewheels after asking for a revised driver board when they become available:

Good morning Steve,

 

Absolutely, the game-plan is that Inmotion have committed to sending out replacement controllers for all current V12 Customers, but they're constrained by MOSFET chip shortages, it will probably be late April until those boards show. We'll be working on a board replacement program once they become available, all the costs will be covered by us, including shipping. 

 

Hope this helps,

 

Jason  

 

[Silverfish]

I got my notification via email today that pretty match matches the ones from the bigger online retailers. Shipping in april may. Bring it in and have it done or get it shipped to you plus 100$ store credit. 

[Shane Dougherty]

4 minutes ago, Silverfish said:

I got my notification via email today that pretty match matches the ones from the bigger online retailers. Shipping in april may. Bring it in and have it done or get it shipped to you plus 100$ store credit. 

Who did you buy your wheel from? 

[Silverfish]

20 minutes ago, Shane Dougherty said:

Who did you buy your wheel from? 

I wasn't gonna say since I've been expressing nothing but cynicism about this situation and don't want that to rub off unfairly on them since none of this was their fault. But since you asked I bought it in store from Eevee's in Vancouver. Cool store, friendly guys.