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Winter Riding: should you worry about salt?


Tryptych

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Of COURSE these wheels made of cheap metals and questionable waterproofing, are at risk with salt. I havent ridden mine in wet roads but once and the rim is already showing signs of it. I can't imagine what the salt would do, once it makes its way into the motor housing. Hell, Im watching my wheels rust right now and they're in a warm and dry basement. Luckily, it seems like something else will surely fail, before rust wins. I'd imagine it could be a close race tho, for those that ride in salty road conditions quite often. Salt and metal and salt and circuits are a tough mix.

Edited by ShanesPlanet
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27 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I can't imagine what the salt would do

Thanks Shane, it was more of a question for people who ride through the winter in colder climates, I know there are a bunch of us.

But now I am curious - do you really see rust on your wheels? Which ones? How bad? I see Chooch riding his MSX through streams a few inches deep in recent videos - he doesn't seem very concerned about water - do wheels really rust so easily?

My next question was going to be about rust proofing... they do it to cars, can we do it to a wheel?

Edited by Tryptych
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The two places that have been a problem for me are the bearings and the pedals. The ACM2, now into its third winter, needed its bearing replaced. I'll post a photo of the old bearing later on today. Not a big deal really though, those small bearings are quite inexpensive. The pins that connect the pedals to the hanger are a big problem; if you don't take them out once in a while and clean them up they get totally locked together; they still work for riding, but it has proven to be impossible to get them apart. On the ACM2, aside from that, not too many issues. The city was using calcium chloride for the first winter when I used that wheel pretty much exclusively.

These days the city has gone back to using salt.

The 18XL seems to be doing fine, although I think by the end of this winter it too will need a bearing replaced.  For now it's doing just fine, minimal rust problems. 

The RS was showing signs of rust around the bearing after just a week of riding. It's in pieces now, awaiting a bearing replacement. I'm tempted to say that hollow-bore motors may not be well suited for adverse weather, but we have a V11 here being ridden in winter conditions and so far it seems to be holding up fine. Once I get a new bearing in it I plan to get out there with it again to see if it's just a bearing quality issue or something more.

Generally speaking, rust hasn't been as much of an issue as I thought it might be.

 

 

 

 

Edited by winterwheel
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  • 2 months later...
On 12/7/2020 at 4:52 PM, winterwheel said:

The RS was showing signs of rust around the bearing after just a week of riding. It's in pieces now, awaiting a bearing replacement. I'm tempted to say that hollow-bore motors may not be well suited for adverse weather, but we have a V11 here being ridden in winter conditions and so far it seems to be holding up fine. Once I get a new bearing in it I plan to get out there with it again to see if it's just a bearing quality issue or something more.

I been looking into waterproofing too. For circuit board plastic spray varnish is a easy solution. It gives small layer of flexible protection. BUT you cannot use it everywhere. Anything causing heat could be of issue. And obviously anything that needs to move, you cannot/should not use it to.

So waterproofing moving parts is more tricky. For the electric motor I been tempted to try rust proofing, that also has minor waterproofing abilities. The product in mind I have is corrosion-x. Army and aviation use this stuff but commonly available. Should part covered with it sink to water, it might cause cut off, but as soon as you clear of water normality resumes. By design it is ideal for moving parts. It is also suited for bearings. To get it off you need cleaning alcohol. I think for your RS ,that could be good solution, but there are other solutions too. 

@winterwheelI would be curious to know what products you been using. Especially that RS in mind. Or any hollow motor in general.

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So far I'm not using anything. As much as possible I try not enhance my wheels so my I can honestly say what the base wheels are capable of. That said, if I get repeated bearing failures I'll start looking at extra solutions. 

I've had the EX for a couple of long rides in in snow/slush/icy conditions, so far it's holding up.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've purposely abused the V8F this winter commuting 30kms daily through all the worst days of slush, salt, and snow as well as any rain days in the previous season. It's been dropped into 3" deep salt water puddles and crashed multiple times on slushy roads. I wanted to see if the durability of the V8 was as good as people claim. At this point it's done about 400kms of pure winter conditions and about 300kms in rain going over puddles at full speed. Total mileage around 2200km. I don't even rinse the wheel after - I just bounce the wheel a few times to loosen the slush before I get inside and then let it air dry on a boot tray.

After all this only two issues:
1) Paint flaking off the rim starting at the valve hole and corrosion on the aluminum behind - totally expected as the valve stem knocks around and chips the paint here which lets water behind the paint. I have scraped off the loose bits and will add some rust paint when it's time to service.
2) Bearing starting to sound a little rough (only noticeable when free spinning, not riding). Will be replacing during the service as well.


IMO any wheel that's easy to service the bearing/motor assembly and is relatively waterproof should be totally fine. I see this wheel lasting me many winters to come.

IMG_7912.jpg

IMG_7913.jpg

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On 12/3/2020 at 2:21 AM, Tryptych said:

I see Chooch riding his MSX through streams a few inches deep in recent videos - he doesn't seem very concerned about water - do wheels really rust so easily?

Recently watched an old video by Chooch about the way he cleans his wheels in winter. He discusses how to prevent damage from the salt.
 

 

Edited by Patrick Robert
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46 minutes ago, Patrick Robert said:

video by Chooch about the way he cleans his wheels in winter. He discusses how to prevent damage from the salt.

Please do not! WD-40 actually damages your plastic. People damage their car with this everyday.. More below..

 

To avoid damaging your wheel I will write few products that are very easy

Gonna drop some products that can help against rust if you find some in your wheel. (remove rust with rust remove product then protect with other product)

I recommend gloves and goggles of sorts, maybe even a mask if you use these products in indoors.

 

Check that your cleaning product does not cause rust and it is safe to use on plastics.

 

Corrosion-X HD (Heavy duty): Available in Murica and somewhat europe.

Marine shops or airplane maintenance might have it, if they sell stuff. There are variants but this lasts longer.

This is refered as NASA secret sauce, safe to use even on live electric circuits. This is thick stuff, that is why they call it heavy duty. You should be able to use this to protect even the electric motor. Downside of it is that you would have to clean it away (should you need to) with cleaning alcohol. Treatment lasts 1,5-2 year max. Very easy solution and can in some cases even "resurrect" circuits that were considered "dead". Rather instant effect. I am uncertain good this is to parts that  cause heating. The company has lots of cases you can check where people asked if it is use  case, refer that. Expensive in europe. Smells funny, but smell is gone in few days.

CRC 2-26: Widely found europe.

Lots of use cases, such as where you wanna displace water/protect and lubricate. Safe to use on plastics and neoprene! Can leave it to rims and pedals to dry. This is fairly safe product to use (don't inhale or spray to eyes), especially those who worry about plastic pieces getting damaged in relays and such. Can be used on live circuits. Clean rust away first then apply this. Will be washed away with heavy water use, it is thinner product. The product is again something you can use with electric motors if you worry water getting into hollow motors. Can use to bearings too. 1-year treatment. Check the product details for more info.

 

You should avoid mixing different products. Clean first. 

 

To protect _clean_ circuit boards you could use protective varnish. 

PRF 202 Plastic Spray (apply it outside house, or prepare to vent)

Use case for protecting circuitboards. Only in clean surface, if you leave water under it, rust will appear. Apply in small layers, wait to dry, rince and repeat. Never blow into it (no spitting please)! Do not apply to parts that heat up as they will heat even more. It still permits soldering as it forms film over the circuit.

 

WD-40 - Avoid it!

I would warn against the basic WD-40. It is damaging to plastic parts. People use it too widely, with bad results. Make sure you do not spray it to your electronics or parts related to electronics. Be careful using it with EUC. You should not use it to electronics nor plastics combined with metals. There was "specialist" version of it, that had electronics use cases but do not mix it to basic WD-40. WD-40 product is only for metals!

Would be fun to know what others use. I know there are lot of people who tell WD-40 everything, not me tho. NOTICE: SPECIALIST WD-40 is different product.

Quote from internet on WD-40

"

It's damage to plastic washers and gaskets happens over weeks as its solvent vehicle works it way breaking down the plastic polymer chain molecules. Never use WD-40 on any kind of plastics. ... In general, WD-40 is a petroleum based lubricant and will not affect most general use plastics such as PVC, PP, HDPE or ABS.

"

And here is something about the Specialist:

"

WD-40 Specialist® Silicone Lubricant safely lubricates, waterproofs and protects metal and non-metal surfaces such as rubber, plastic and vinyl. This formula dries fast and leaves a clear, non-staining film that doesn't stick or make a mess, so it won't attract dirt.

"

 

Edited by Tasku
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no..? i ride my wheels all year round and though we dont get a lot of snow here theres certainly salted roads throughout some of the winter... but even through rain, snow, salt i have never seen a speck of rust on any of my wheels... pretty much every metal part of the wheel is coated (motor, pedals, handle etc) and the only thing that is not is the rim, which is magnesium so it cant rust but it actually corrodes all year round, that is the grey dust like film that you will always find on the rim of your euc... besides screws and the pins that hold on the pedals im not sure what else could rust

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On 12/2/2020 at 11:09 PM, ShanesPlanet said:

Of COURSE these wheels made of cheap metals and questionable waterproofing, are at risk with salt. I havent ridden mine in wet roads but once and the rim is already showing signs of it. I can't imagine what the salt would do, once it makes its way into the motor housing. Hell, Im watching my wheels rust right now and they're in a warm and dry basement. Luckily, it seems like something else will surely fail, before rust wins. I'd imagine it could be a close race tho, for those that ride in salty road conditions quite often. Salt and metal and salt and circuits are a tough mix.

im curious as to what youre seeing rust? because the only thing i could think of that could rust would be inside the motor lol... or just screws/pins

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My V10 have been beater wheel for second season, no issues what so ever. It stands outside and i ride short local rides with it. No issues even with -26c.  I charge the battery inside and let it warm up before. But I don't do any maintenance. Original tyre and little over 2000km.

After any ride in winter let the wheel freespin to cutout so that all the snow gets through out and make sure it stand straight so melting snow can driple down

MSP also have no issues, but it gets the luxury threating of letting it dry in warm bathroom. 

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2 hours ago, Rywokast said:

im curious as to what youre seeing rust? because the only thing i could think of that could rust would be inside the motor lol... or just screws/pins

That's correct. Generally do not have to worry rust from outside the wheel. 

The salt water would be extremely bad for circuit boards, that's why I tried to point out products that can help protect em. If you spray WD-40 to circuit board, bad things will happen.

Copper, aluminium will oxidize. Cleaning em is also important. Also bacteria can form and prevent contact. Tin can also oxidize.

In nutshell you should just clean your wheel from outside, avoid water and stay away from salt water.

Drop of salt water could ruin your circuit board and/or cause unwanted behaviour. Cutout would be nasty during ride. The covers prevent this mostly but, if damaged or water sealing is broken, water tends to find way in.

Also do not forget that there is moisture in air.

 

Possible problem scenarios:

Unless you dip you wheel to water you should be fine with the occasional splashing. In a pool of water the pressure of water would/could force water inside to your wheel.

Opening the covers prolly the best opportunity for water and moist air to get into your wheel. Example: If you talk on phone, some water likely flying below to your wheel you are maintaining. Even those few drops can become humid air on hot weather, causing oxidising, or unwanted behaviour in circuit boards. Eating bubblegum is frowned upon maintenance too, for this reason. Also if you drill something metallic, make sure these metals from drilling do not get inside your cover or anywhere near circuit boards.

Your wheel gets hit by rock and motor cover has a dent, letting water in.

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10 hours ago, Rywokast said:

im curious as to what youre seeing rust? because the only thing i could think of that could rust would be inside the motor lol... or just screws/pins

pins and fasteners. I havent opened my wheels is a while, nor do I ride in salty wet conditions. I did have my 18l once on wet and now the rim shows corrossion. Rust isnt the only culprit.

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