Donafello Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 46 minutes ago, Cloud said: Yes i pulled everything out. The board shows no signs of damage, but it smells them:) still smells burnt, i am not aphome now but will post pictures later. Same for the motor pics I am thinking of using something more liquid than wd40 to get inside the thread. Have to get it later today I will try heat if the lubricant doesnt work. I didnt see any locktite but the screws were consistently tight across the board. Its terrible to hear the wheel came loose on you. Hope it didnt cause any accident or injuries It was the right size key and i made sure its metric. These screws are tight as hell. I will take pics once i open that baby up Well being the service manager for a honda dealer Ive come across my share of frozen bolts. First step is to try soem heat but if you stripped the head already then that is not going to work. You might have to drill out the bolt and get a new one in there. I think any local machine shop should be able to do this for you and have a new screw to put in. you can even request a phillips head screw to go back in if you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colestien Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 I have an "easy out" I bought at Lowes. It bites into the allen I've talen a lot of stripped allens out with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donafello Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 3 minutes ago, Colestien said: I have an "easy out" I bought at Lowes. It bites into the allen I've talen a lot of stripped allens out with it. there you go. I just spoke to one of my techs who suggested the same thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted December 12, 2015 Author Share Posted December 12, 2015 The screw head is not fully stripped yet. What got stripped ( luckily) is the actuall allen key, probably being of low quality and soft. But i may very well strip the screw head when i try to tackle it again and will then need the "easy out". Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donafello Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 oh ok. then if you get a strong allen key then i'm sure it will come right out. just get a good quality one at the hardware store Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 On 12.12.2015 at 2:11 AM, Keith said: the motor is not a d.c. motor. Brushless motors are 3-phase a.c motors so the controller works quite hard sending a carefully timed a.c. Voltage to each of the 3 sets of coils in turn ( The three thicker wires that connected to brass screws on the control board). A d.c. voltage across any two of those three wires will just create an electromagnet out of one set of coils ( and will take too much current if connected to the wheel's battery.) it works like this: a set of coils are energised and each attracts a magnet towards it, as the magnet passes over the coil the voltage is reversed to repel the magnet and then the next coil along is energised to attract it - and so on spinning the wheel which has a load of magnets attached all the way around it and a load of coils in groups of 3 on the stationary part. Hall effect transistors are used to detect exactly where the magnets currently are so that the controller "knows" when to energise each phase (either to spin the wheel in either direction or hold it stationary depending on what the gyro stabilisation circuitry is demanding ) these transistors are connected to the set of wires that go to the control board via a plug. While I completely agree (based on the little that I know) with you otherwise, I'm not sure if the BLDC (I've come to understand the term means brushless direct current -motor, but could be wrong) motor can be said to be an AC (alternating current) motor... from what I know, in alternating current, there's a current that actually changes direction (the potential changes "signs"). There are things like inductive kickbacks when it comes to BLDCs (need to have transient overvoltage suppression diodes to "eat" the overvoltage, either inside the motor or on the half-bridges after the mosfets), but still I'm not sure if they can be classified as "AC", as the current (apparently) doesn't change direction, only the high- and low-sides of the bridges are switched on/off to control over which phases the current travels? It's nitpicking and I could very well be wrong here though... I've been studying up on these motors and the control principles and circuitry lately to understand what makes them "tick", and my current project is to learn how to build a control circuit for a 3-phase motor (with 3 half bridges from discrete components, no actual drive ICs involved, just Arduino UNOs or Megas to produce the PWM-signals and to read the MPU6050 -gyro/accelerometer, once I get the sensors), with longer term goal of building a segway-type self-balancing robot with 2 BLDC-motors over the winter, just got the motors today... EDIT: I hope this doesn't sound hostile or "know-it-all", I'm a bit drunk right now It seems you know what you're talking about, and any and all insight into the working of these devices is very welcome... Even when wrong, I hope to learn from my mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted December 13, 2015 Author Share Posted December 13, 2015 Ok so i finally opoened the wheel up, and i dont see any signs of damage but here is the pictures, let me know if anything looks out of the ordinary. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted December 13, 2015 Author Share Posted December 13, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMo Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Still looks good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Cloud, Thank you for posting these it's nice to actually get a look inside one and Wow, it's got even more poles than I'd imagined. You can see what I was saying about how close the magnets are to the stators. On your pictures the magnets all look to be in place and the coils all look fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted December 14, 2015 Author Share Posted December 14, 2015 11 hours ago, Keith said: Cloud, Thank you for posting these it's nice to actually get a look inside one and Wow, it's got even more poles than I'd imagined. You can see what I was saying about how close the magnets are to the stators. On your pictures the magnets all look to be in place and the coils all look fine. I have to admit that i am totally confused. I dont understand how the wheel rotates. I put the covers and pedals back on and its not rotating any more. Where is the stator? So the pedal assembly goes on the shaft, since the pedals dont rotate it means that the shaft doesnt rotate either,p. The shaft goes into the black metal piece in the center of the wheel with 6 holes around in it around the perimeter. It seems to be a solid connection, one piece. The plack round part is connected to the coils on the perimeter, which means the coils wont move. Now outside of the coils on the circumference i see metal plates connected to them, and the reciprocal metal plates which seem to belong to the rim itself. The rim has to rotate obviously. There seems to be a small gap between these two circumferences of plates, in between and in some spots they are touching tight. I can make the part with the coils rotate in relation to the outer circumference but i have to apply a lot of force to the pedals to make it move and it scratches against the reciprocal part, it doesnt move free at all. Is this how the rotor and the stator are supposed to move in relation to each other?? With no bearings? I am totally confused. Can someone explain? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Cloud, This type of brushless motor is known as an outrunner. The stationary part is the hub including the coils. The wheel rim including the magnets is what turns, driven by the magnets. The bearings are in the centres of those two outer covers that look a bit like woks. Once they are bolted back on they, and the wheel rim, become the rotating part turning on the fixed central spindle. This YouTube article shows exactly how it works - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCEiOnuODac you motor is exactly the same it just has lots more magnets and coils. From here on I'm guessing, but, noting how small the clearance between magnets and stators is, it is possible that refitting those outer covers has to be very precise to preserve the clearance between the magnets and stators evenly all the way around. It might help if you fitted spacers around the rim in that gap ( thick card, lolly sticks whatever you can find of the right thickness-obviously nothing metal) before fitting the cover on one side, You will have to remove them to fit the other side but it might help keep it all centred. also check for any foreign objects in the gap that may have been picked up since you opened it, the magnets are powerful and will pick up paper clips, small nuts etc. Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlymex Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Thanks very much for the inside photo. Is this the 14C 800W? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizardmech Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 Do these motors levitate as well? My EUC is always noisy when pressure is applied to the side bearings, it gives me the impression the motor acts as it's own bearing most of the time while moving across flat ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted December 14, 2015 Author Share Posted December 14, 2015 19 minutes ago, zlymex said: Thanks very much for the inside photo. Is this the 14C 800W? Yes it is 1 hour ago, Keith said: Cloud, This type of brushless motor is known as an outrunner. The stationary part is the hub including the coils. The wheel rim including the magnets is what turns, driven by the magnets. The bearings are in the centres of those two outer covers that look a bit like woks. Once they are bolted back on they, and the wheel rim, become the rotating part turning on the fixed central spindle. This YouTube article shows exactly how it works - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCEiOnuODac you motor is exactly the same it just has lots more magnets and coils. From here on I'm guessing, but, noting how small the clearance between magnets and stators is, it is possible that refitting those outer covers has to be very precise to preserve the clearance between the magnets and stators evenly all the way around. It might help if you fitted spacers around the rim in that gap ( thick card, lolly sticks whatever you can find of the right thickness-obviously nothing metal) before fitting the cover on one side, You will have to remove them to fit the other side but it might help keep it all centred. also check for any foreign objects in the gap that may have been picked up since you opened it, the magnets are powerful and will pick up paper clips, small nuts etc. Keith Keith, thank you very much, i understand. I supposed if the mounting of the side covers is precise, once they are screwed in, this will re- adjust the gap between the coils and the magnets. That gap is so freaking small!!! Its amazing how precise it has to be. In e its reassembled, the gap has to be about half a millimeter, or about 1/32nd of an inch! I will try to reassemble and see if the wheel starts rotating normally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlymex Posted December 14, 2015 Share Posted December 14, 2015 36 minutes ago, Cloud said: Yes it is Keith, thank you very much, i understand. I supposed if the mounting of the side covers is precise, once they are screwed in, this will re- adjust the gap between the coils and the magnets. That gap is so freaking small!!! Its amazing how precise it has to be. In e its reassembled, the gap has to be about half a millimeter, or about 1/32nd of an inch! I will try to reassemble and see if the wheel starts rotating normally. Skills and patient must be required to reassemble the motor. I heard stories that people failed to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted December 15, 2015 Author Share Posted December 15, 2015 15 hours ago, zlymex said: Skills and patient must be required to reassemble the motor. I heard stories that people failed to it. I think you jinxed me. I put the cover back on and the wheel doesnt rotate easily. 3/4 of the circumference it goes good and the last quarter i have to apply a lot of force. Not sure how to fix this, i will try to switch left and ridght covers, other than that not sure. That gap between the coils and the motors is super small, almost no gap, the parts have to fit in with surgical precision!! or maybe there is something in fact broken inside it, i cant tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlymex Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 @Cloud I'm sorry to hear that. In fact I've never hint any problem with the motor. To make things worse, it not only required to adjust for radial direction, but should also adjust in the axial direction for tilting. May be it's better not to tighten the screws completely first, and then strike gentling at on point(and change position and side later) by using a wooden cushion. Good lock for your motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 cloud, That was my concern, that there might be enough play in the bolt holes around the rim before they are tightened that misalignment could occur and the magnets and stator touch. Zlymex' suggestion is worth trying, or perhaps fit one side tightly with some spacers to keep the clearance even and then, having removed the spacers try turning the wheel slowly whilst stopping it rocking to see if it will do a full turn without catching. I.e. try to confirm if clearance is the only issue. I suspect the wheels are originally built in a jig. As Zlymex suggested if clearance is the issue, fit the second side only tight enough for it not to move and gently tap the rim with a mallet or wooden block to adjust it -that may take a fair bit of trial and error. When putting the rim bolts in try not to push down on them and also tighten opposing ones so as not to move the rim out of alignment. Also before reassembling check the bearings in the covers turn freely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted December 16, 2015 Author Share Posted December 16, 2015 Success! Ive put the motor back together and the wheel rotates fine. I believe the last time i switches the left and right cover. Even though they are identical, apparently it mattered for the fine alighment of the stator. The gap at the magnets is insanely small. It feels like its paper thin! That wheel has some precision to it!! ok , whoever needs to take Kingsong apart, ask me how, i am now a self proclaimed kingsong assembling expert next step is to wait for the replacement control board to arrive from kingsong, woukdnt it be nice if they sent me the latest version?) that wont happen, i dont think, i believe the connectors have changed in the last 4 months... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMo Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 38 minutes ago, Cloud said: Success! Ive put the motor back together and the wheel rotates fine. I believe the last time i switches the left and right cover. Even though they are identical, apparently it mattered for the fine alighment of the stator. The gap at the magnets is insanely small. It feels like its paper thin! That wheel has some precision to it!! ok , whoever needs to take Kingsong apart, ask me how, i am now a self proclaimed kingsong assembling expert next step is to wait for the replacement control board to arrive from kingsong, woukdnt it be nice if they sent me the latest version?) that wont happen, i dont think, i believe the connectors have changed in the last 4 months... Congrats! At least Kingsong is Committed to send you the replacement board unlike Ninebot which is now like a dog playing dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlymex Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 2 hours ago, Cloud said: Success! Ive put the motor back together and the wheel rotates fine. I believe the last time i switches the left and right cover. Even though they are identical, apparently it mattered for the fine alighment of the stator. The gap at the magnets is insanely small. It feels like its paper thin! That wheel has some precision to it!! ok , whoever needs to take Kingsong apart, ask me how, i am now a self proclaimed kingsong assembling expert next step is to wait for the replacement control board to arrive from kingsong, woukdnt it be nice if they sent me the latest version?) that wont happen, i dont think, i believe the connectors have changed in the last 4 months... Congrats! You may short two or three motor wires and rotate the motor to see if the phenomena repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted December 16, 2015 Author Share Posted December 16, 2015 4 hours ago, SlowMo said: Congrats! At least Kingsong is Committed to send you the replacement board unlike Ninebot which is now like a dog playing dead. Thanks ! Yes they offered to send it. I have to pay for the shipping only. Or i can take advantage of Will's kind offer to add the board to his shipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMo Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 9 minutes ago, Cloud said: Thanks ! Yes they offered to send it. I have to pay for the shipping only. Or i can take advantage of Will's kind offer to add the board to his shipment. Better grab Will's offer to save on shipping. I could have bought a KS14C before but @tinawong refused to sell me one saying I would have problems with warranty service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConjurMan Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 16 minutes ago, SlowMo said: Better grab Will's offer to save on shipping. I could have bought a KS14C before but @tinawong refused to sell me one saying I would have problems with warranty service. Why would there be problems with warranty service? Something sounds hinky. 5 hours ago, Cloud said: Success! Ive put the motor back together and the wheel rotates fine. I believe the last time i switches the left and right cover. Even though they are identical, apparently it mattered for the fine alighment of the stator. The gap at the magnets is insanely small. It feels like its paper thin! That wheel has some precision to it!! ok , whoever needs to take Kingsong apart, ask me how, i am now a self proclaimed kingsong assembling expert next step is to wait for the replacement control board to arrive from kingsong, woukdnt it be nice if they sent me the latest version?) that wont happen, i dont think, i believe the connectors have changed in the last 4 months... Excellent news! Glad to hear that you got the BDC motor back together and you have clear rotation. Now, hopefully, you can replace the main board and have an operational wheel again. Since it is only the main board that will be shipping you should not have any significant delays either. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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