Possibly Dumb Question

[Stillhart]

So yeah, I realize this is a REALLY noob question but I have to ask.  Is speed determined by the amount of constant force on the front of the pedals or do you apply force until you get up to speed and then keep it neutral to hold your speed? 

The main reason I ask is that I feel like I tend to top out at the same speed all the time.  For motorcycle riders, it feels like when you're sitting in the flat spot in 6th gear... like it just wants to cruise at a specific speed.  I know my wheel can go significantly faster than the 16-17mph I "top out" at.  And I realize that I'm comfortable at that speed and much faster gets me wobbling because I am probably tensing up.

But watching the latest eVX video with Duf where he's talking about pushing past into the next gear, I'm wondering what the mechanics of that are.  Lean further forward?  I know @Mike Sacristan talks a lot about avoiding leaning too far and how he accelerates using... a different technique.  Certainly Kuji loves his superman lean.  Do I need to squeeze the wheel more to force more lean than the pedals are giving me?

One more thing, I played a bit with the pedal hardness settings today.  I'd been in soft mode and tried hard then medium.  One thing I really liked about the harder modes was that any wobbles felt a lot more controllable than on the softer modes.  Another motorcycle analogy, it felt like a well-tuned suspension vs a mushy suspension.  But the unmoving pedals on hard just felt a little weird so I went with medium for a nice combo of both.  Since I made that change, I felt a little more confident and got a few mph fast but still haven't broken the 20mph barrier yet.  lol

Anyways, just hoping for some discussion/feedback on technique.  I suspect I need to just keep getting more comfortable and confident and I'll get faster.  But I want to make sure I'm not making any obvious mistakes too.  Thx!

[.....]

I think its a constant lean/pressure to maintain a constant speed, but a temporary increase in force is required to GAIN speed.  I am starting to think that muscle plays a big part in it. I CAN lean too far (comfortably) to stay at top speed, but then a bump risks a faceplant. As i condition my legs from riding, I am noticing that I can maintain the same speeds with less lean. I think the answer lies in a balance between using your weight AND your strength/ability  to push your feet down at the toes. I think if it in terms of a roofer. Being able to stand with feet at a severe angle, uses ankles and calves a lot.  After 300 miles, I dont ride up on my toes as much and still go same or faster speeds. @Mike Sacristan mentioned some exercises to help me in developing these muscles. I practice this by bending the knees more and trying to use my legs/knees/feet and NOT my waist or body weight. Higher speeds on rocks/gravel really force you to adapt this style.  I surely HOPE i can begin to rely on leg muscle over forward body weight. Staying more centered over the wheel and using muscle AND grabbing with the legs, feels much safer and more predictably to me. Kuji's dead man lean scares the shit out of me!  Fwiw, it does seem easier to accelerate in stages as you reach your comfort lean angle. Once up to a decent 20mph, I accelerate more in pushes rather than solid lean. Maybe its wrong, but it just feels right to me. I've done away with custom pads for now and i am still improving in sustained speed and acceleration every day i ride.  Im also down to 25psi on my 18L, vs the 35psi I was(less bounce on rocky roads). Im only 135lbs, but i still like the feeling of flex from lower pressure. I'll increase it once I begin bottoming out to rim very often. For now, my knees seem to be taking up the bigger stuff.

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[bigwave]

29 minutes ago, Stillhart said:

I went with medium for a nice combo of both

I also started out on the Nikola on hard but the last couple rides I tried the medium and liked it. You have probably seen this video , I use his technique a lot. Also ,  @Mike Sacristan gave me some excellent advice on tire PSI on the Nikola. I was running 40psi like on the 18XL but it felt a little bouncy. He suggested 35psi for my weight and it was instantly more planted. The more comfortable you get with the Nikola the faster you will ride!

 

 

[Stillhart]

Thanks, both of you, for some good food for thought.  I'm going to try some different things tomorrow and see what helps.

[who_the]

Keep going! You'll get it. But remember: Riding a EUC isn't about "force" on the pedals at all. The only thing that matters is the position of your weight (mass). If you want to go faster, place more of your mass ahead of the wheel. At first, don't bend at the waist, your hips control your mass. 

[svenomous]

What matters is center of gravity. Put your center of gravity at a specific point ahead of the line parallel to the wheel's center of gravity that passes through the contact patch the wheel makes with the ground, and the wheel will accelerate to a specific speed and hold that speed.  Move your CG further ahead of that point, and the wheel will accelerate some more.  The wheel is always just trying to stay level.  Your body acts like a crowbar trying to turn the wheel away from vertical, and the wheel reacts by moving in the direction it's being "pried" to prevent the wheel's case from actually rotating.

On level ground the contact patch is pretty much exactly at the wheel's own CG point, so you just need to shift your weight ahead of and behind the wheel's center point.  When going uphill, the contact patch is ahead of the wheel's CG, so you have to shift your own CG further ahead than normal to achieve the same speed. When going downhill, the contact patch is behind the wheel's CG, so you have to shift your own CG much less (if at all) to achieve the same speed, but conversely you have to shift your CG backward more than normal to get to zero speed (brake), or to go backward if or to go backward at a certain speed, if you're so inclined (pun not intended).  Foot position is a factor.  You might normally ride pretty well centered, but to make going up hills less fatiguing you might shift an inch forward on the pedals for a long climb; same goes in reverse for long downhills.  Just remember that shifting your CG by changing your foot positions gives you an advantage that can later turn into a disadvantage (when the terrain changes).

How you move your CG is up to you. The standing human body has multiple joints available to make this happen: ankles, knees, hips, and spine, and even the head and arms can be used. Try this: get to a specific speed and hold it carefully by not shifting; now put both arms out in front of you without changing your stance; the wheel will accelerate to a new faster speed. Find what works for you. Generally, standing ramrod-straight and using just your ankles to move your whole body forward and backward like an upside-down pendulum is probably not the best way to do things, but it shows you that even just the ankles can indeed be used for speed control. This pendulum method is actually fine for comfortable low-speed control, if you're tired of being in a "race" position all the time. You'll find what's comfortable for you...maybe multiple techniques for different situations. Generally, especially at higher speed, you'll want your knees bent somewhat to act as shock absorbers (especially for unexpected bumps that would otherwise catapult you right off the pedals), and when you bend your knees your'll find your hindbrain automatically pushes out your butt to compensate. After all, your own body is trained to balance upright and keep center of gravity over the feet.  This is why some people say "I leaned way forward, but the wheel won't accelerate!" This is because when you lean forward, your butt goes backward to compensate, or you'd fall off your own feet. You have to consciously shift weight toward the toes or toward the heel, without falling over obviously, and the wheel will respond.  Be conscious of whether your feet feel even weight distribution along their length, or whether weight feels more "on the heels" or "on the toes."  Getting it off-center is the key to controlling the EUC.  It'll click soon enough, don't worry.

As for turns, guess what, it's more CG-shifting, except this time laterally. you can try pivoting your upper body or putting out an arm, and that works to a limited degree, but for nimble turns on a wheel you'll find that you have to shift weight pretty aggressively from one foot to the other.  Lift your left foot off the pedal slightly and "press down" with the right foot, and see how strongly the wheel starts turning to the right.  Think of the pedals as a "steering pedals," and "press" on the side you want to turn toward, lifting away a little from the other side. Bend up your knee on the side you want to turn away from (and maybe even lift the heel off the pedal, keeping just the front of the foot in contact), and straighten your knee on the side you want to turn toward. The effect is to lean the wheel off center, toward the side you want to turn...and it turns!  That's how you do turns, with the legs; upper body movements and micro-arm-swings provide some fine control.  Watch some experienced rider videos, e.g. Chooch, and after you're done being amazed take a close look at how they actually make the thing go faster, slower, and around corners.  Watch how their bodies move, and how much of it is in the legs and not just in the upper body.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

5 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I practice this by bending the knees more and trying to use my legs/knees/feet and NOT my waist or body weight. Higher speeds on rocks/gravel really force you to adapt this style.  I surely HOPE i can begin to rely on leg muscle over forward body weight. Staying more centered over the wheel and using muscle AND grabbing with the legs, feels much safer and more predictably to me.

I don't know it any other way, because I learned to ride it as soon as I had managed the first meters on the EUC, not on the tarred road, but offroad over bumpy roads and on single trails in the forest. 

If I had used the straight zombie forward leaning technique, it would have been a painful learning phase. 

It would have been nice and helpful if I had put power-pads on right at the beginning. More fun, more power, more speed, better hill climbing, better breaking without wobbles, more safety and all this stuff without having to lean very much forward/backward. The increased control of the wheel is just incredible. 

Edited May 3, 2020 by buell47

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, svenomous said:

Foot position is a factor. 

This seems to be one of the most common issues if reaching a speed is problematic. If your shoe hangs as much behind the pedal as it does on the front, your relaxed CoG is behind the axle and you have to lean forward just to get to the center.

 Level  the back of your shoes with the back of the pedals, letting your toes go over at the front.

[Mike Sacristan]

For laughs I pumped up my 16X (with the CYT tire) to 31 PSI.
It was a rough ride. It was dark, wet out, +9C.
At 40 kmh and above things got sketchy. Low speed control is not really the same either and requires more correcting of the wheel when balancing it as it tends to want to flop to the side more at this high pressure. Skate park was fun and bouncy. Turns were scary. I bought some snacks and was riding with a shopping bag, passed the police station nearby, a car started crawling up my ass at around 30 kmh so I just peeled away from him. Hit soft tilt back at 49.5kmh. Took 1000 years to brake so I almost ran a red light.

Anyway... tire pressure really does a lot. It has been said on this forum before that the more experienced riders prefer a higher tire pressure.
Hitting irregular asphalt with high pressure on a wheel like the 16X (no cushions) will mean that you either activate God mode on your knees while riding and see everything OR your feet will leave the pedals a tiny bit now and then. Fun times.

I will let Monika try the 31 PSI first.. and then lower it to 25 PSI again.

My riding weight is 150 lbs.

Yesterday I was on the MSX riding with my friend Daniel. He was on his crazy fast board.
I run with 25 PSI and it is not 100% cushy and still a bit bouncy so rapid bumps in succession can be tricky. 
I hit a few bumps several times and I won't say that I almost fell off but the possibility was there.
The tire is not meant to act like a super ball.

In regards to getting the wheels to move. It is a matter of daring to fall forward.
It is not really intuitive. I remember getting really angry at Monika because she couldn't get the MSX to 30 kmh.
In the end she clenched her fists and just pushed forward. Anything to shut me up and make me come out of my rage loop.
She hit 30. Cried a little. Then we went home.

[Stillhart]

5 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

 

In regards to getting the wheels to move. It is a matter of daring to fall forward.
It is not really intuitive. I remember getting really angry at Monika because she couldn't get the MSX to 30 kmh.
In the end she clenched her fists and just pushed forward. Anything to shut me up and make me come out of my rage loop.
She hit 30. Cried a little. Then we went home.

Yeah this is what I suspect my issue is.  I top out at a certain speed because that's as far as I'm leaning.  I'm going to try some different techniques to try and overcome that.  If all else fails, I'll try to hire an angry Spaniard on Craigslist to yell at me until I cry.  :-D

[.....]

On my range test today I found that slowly getting near top speed is no big deal. To push into top speed (50kmh)and hold it, I just give a quick little push with the toes/knees. Its much less scary than trying to lean and muscle my way into the last 2-3kmh that my wheel can go.  If it was merely a matter of how much you lean forward, I would have the same results on mile 300 as I was having on mile 30. NOW I can push into and maintain my wheels top speed and Im riding flat footed. I dont need lean over the front as much nor stand on my toes. Center of gravity changes, depending on how we use our calves and ankles. Its not merely leaning forwards more to go forwards more. It is a combination of controlled lean and also controlled pressure on the front of the feet. Im riding looser now and carrying more speed with less effort. NOW when Im at 49kmh and I hit a bump, I dont feel as if I'm about to fall onto my face. 200 miles ago, I was on the VERGE of faceplant, to go the same speeds. I think it is all a matter of time AND muscle development. If it was merely a matter of stance and thought, it wouldnt take near as long to acquire the ability. Dont underestimate the benefits of riding a little offset in stance(not feet so much as knees offset, think snowboarding), to give you more bite into the wheel. Most of my riding is in the mountains and uneven asphalt. Even so, the ability to get to and maintain near 50kmh for extended periods is only as tough as the next curve is sharp. Gaining speed going up hills where once I had to grab for dear life. Its GOT to have a lot to do with muscle tone. Im not smarter now, but my legs are stronger. I can also manage this more centered on the pedals, tho having the balls of the feet on the very front edge, do make sustained top speed runs a bit easier... much less brakes tho and much less jiggle room for that fun high speed foot hop when you hit a bump. Maybe coming from a basic newbie like me, it makes a little sense?

here's a typical trip for me to the local gas station. It's quite shocking just how fast a battery can go from 50% to 10%, in compare to 100% to 51%. Plenty of speed alerts and i dont recall ever feeling like I was going to fall off the front. Legs feel like I climbed 10,000 steps today, sadly it was nearly nill for cardio workout.

https://euc.world/tour/586174434362085  

Edited May 4, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Stillhart]

On 5/2/2020 at 9:15 PM, bigwave said:

I also started out on the Nikola on hard but the last couple rides I tried the medium and liked it. You have probably seen this video , I use his technique a lot. Also ,  @Mike Sacristan gave me some excellent advice on tire PSI on the Nikola. I was running 40psi like on the 18XL but it felt a little bouncy. He suggested 35psi for my weight and it was instantly more planted. The more comfortable you get with the Nikola the faster you will ride!

 

 

Okay well this helped a lot I think.  I believe I now understand why I was always wobbling at the same speed.  I'm fairly certain I was trying to avoid leaning forward too much by pressing down on my toes and lifting up on my heels... with both feel.  When my toes are hanging over the front of the pedals, that makes the wheel super twitchy and causes the wobbles until I slow down... which conveniently puts my weight back centered on the pedals.

By trying the technique in the video where I keep one foot locked in and only push down with the other foot, I felt a LOT more stable.  I still have to get used to it, but I feel like this will help me push the wobble barrier back more and more each day.  Feeling more and more natural each day.