For anyone unclear on UK law and EUC's..

[Planemo]

From the horses mouth, and it specifically mentions eucs.

Maybe anyone who thinks its still a 'grey area' should read (inc Speedy).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/powered-transporters/information-sheet-guidance-on-powered-transporters

Bummer all round really.

[mrelwood]

”The law aims to ensure safety, consistency, and environmental sustainability”

Yeah right. I don’t know how can they even say that with a straight face.

Sucks, y’all.

[stephen]

It's only like bikes been on the pavement and kids on hoverboards no one bothers them and that's illegal 🙁.

I wouldn't mind but  they have spent thousands building proper cycle lanes and we can't use them i don't want a bike they are so 1900s😀

[Guest PogArt Artur]

8 hours ago, Planemo said:

From the horses mouth, and it specifically mentions eucs.

Maybe anyone who thinks its still a 'grey area' should read (inc Speedy).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/powered-transporters/information-sheet-guidance-on-powered-transporters

Bummer all round really.

Thanks for sharing @Planemo , I went through this article some time ago.

It's always positive to be well educated.

 

[Guest PogArt Artur]

5 hours ago, stephen said:

It's only like bikes been on the pavement and kids on hoverboards no one bothers them and that's illegal 🙁.

I wouldn't mind but  they have spent thousands building proper cycle lanes and we can't use them i don't want a bike they are so 1900s😀

I'm glad we're living in 'civilisation' and there are rules,and principals to follow, rather than no any rules and anarchy, but ...

Seriously.., for so many users of environmental friendly devices , simply banned and this is solution ?

 

[HippoPig]

Such a backwards law.

luckily for us - the horrific cuts to policing means you can go weeks without seeing one where I live.

[Guest PogArt Artur]

23 minutes ago, HippoPig said:

Such a backwards law.

luckily for us - the horrific cuts to policing means you can go weeks without seeing one where I live.

Good to hear that @HippoPig ...

If I can see one police car on my way per day - it's very good.

Usually there's couple of them passing me by daily...

[Planemo]

What I find almost comical is that in the same article it refers back to carriage laws from 1835. You couldnt make it up.

Luckily I rarely see the police either, although the other day a marked car drove down the high street whilst we were riding in the pavement. Dodged a bullet there.

[Guest PogArt Artur]

7 minutes ago, Planemo said:

What I find almost comical is that in the same article it refers back to carriage laws from 1835. You couldnt make it up.

Luckily I rarely see the police either, although the other day a marked car drove down the high street whilst we were riding in the pavement. Dodged a bullet there.

I'm going through those "meetings" daily ...

I may think of moving to Essex!?

[HippoPig]

To be honest - the law you’re breaking isn’t far off cycling on the pavement - and I’ve never seen that enforced by police.

 

Are you actually better off on the pavement rather than the road, because you’re not breaking a law that can impact your driving license?

 

you guys haven’t had an issue? 

 

Ive just ordered an MSX and it’s a little more to have seized than my V5F 😂

Edited May 30, 2019 by HippoPig

[Guest PogArt Artur]

1 hour ago, HippoPig said:

To be honest - the law you’re breaking isn’t far off cycling on the pavement - and I’ve never seen that enforced by police.

 

Are you actually better off on the pavement rather than the road, because you’re not breaking a law that can impact your driving license?

 

you guys haven’t had an issue? 

 

Ive just ordered an MSX and it’s a little more to have seized than my V5F 😂

Congratulation regarding your MSX on its way to you !!! 

:)

[Planemo]

And right on cue...just got back from a ride and had my first close encounter with the law...albeit a PCSO. We were on the pavement....turned a corner, and there he was, walking towards us about 25m away. Immediate panic stations, nowhere to cross or evade, my 10 year old self felt like jumping off (we would have done back in the day when cycling and the Old Bill would proper shout at you, then tell your parents) so I thought the only other course of action was to slow just above walking pace and look down using the old 'if I dont look at him he cant see me' method. We both glided past, I was expecting him to say something...he didnt. Phew. Whether he looked at us I have no idea. Being a PCSO it would have been his area too, so every chance we will see him again and if he had told us to get off and given us a Sec59 it could have ruined our riding around here for good.

Another bullet dodged! Really wish it didnt have to be like this.

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, HippoPig said:

To be honest - the law you’re breaking isn’t far off cycling on the pavement

Well it kinda is. Its no different to riding an uninsured, untaxed and unlicensed moped on the pavement.

[stephen]

I've never had a negative from the police, i was in a park once and police said to me" what's that "i told him he said ,, I'd go to work on that if i had one. Just try stay sensible, 😊 around public that's all we can do,,,ooooh ! Cross your fingers 😀

[Mono]

14 hours ago, Planemo said:

From the horses mouth, and it specifically mentions eucs.

Maybe anyone who thinks its still a 'grey area' should read (inc Speedy).

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/powered-transporters/information-sheet-guidance-on-powered-transporters

Bummer all round really.

The grey area comes from the fact that most humans (including those working in law enforcement) can express (without getting any notable discomfort) self-contradictory positions depending on the situation they find themselves in and not everything which is written on important pieces of paper is necessarily acted upon.

43 minutes ago, Planemo said:

And right on cue...just got back from a ride and had my first close encounter with the law...albeit a PCSO. We were on the pavement....turned a corner, and there he was, walking towards us about 25m away. Immediate panic stations, nowhere to cross or evade, my 10 year old self felt like jumping off (we would have done back in the day when cycling and the Old Bill would proper shout at you, then tell your parents) so I thought the only other course of action was to slow just above walking pace and look down using the old 'if I dont look at him he cant see me' method. We both glided past, I was expecting him to say something...he didnt. Phew. Whether he looked at us I have no idea. Being a PCSO it would have been his area too, so every chance we will see him again and if he had told us to get off and given us a Sec59 it could have ruined our riding around here for good.

Another bullet dodged! Really wish it didnt have to be like this.

Case in point 

[Guest PogArt Artur]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

'if I dont look at him he cant see me' method

It's happened to me,just when I started finding best commuting way to bus depot.

Rolling so focused to not fall off (as beginners do) I made wrong turn, too late realising, that I'm heading next to the main WY Police Headquarter ...

It took seconds to face PO walking my way...

While passing by, I just said greetings - "hiya"

She had a look at me,and did that "keen head tick" as reply...

As I mentioned many times before, the marked police cars are frequently around my...ass

Rolling at 4am early morning through "ghost town" sounds as much scary, when you can hear car's engine coming from behind,to realise soon after, it's police patrolling the streets...

I shall mention, I'm commuting like rolling christmas tree...

Flashing lights mounted on my back pack are making me visible from far away...

Those close meetings I'm experiencing since I've started commuting 6 weeks ago.

This is why I'm upgrading my wheel, because I tested the law on my ass, and I hope, and believe It'll be still this way..., until something might happened. 

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by PogArt Artur

[Guest PogArt Artur]

1 hour ago, stephen said:

I've never had a negative from the police, i was in a park once and police said to me" what's that "i told him he said ,, I'd go to work on that if i had one. Just try stay sensible, 😊 around public that's all we can do,,,ooooh ! Cross your fingers 😀

I remember,I decided to have a chat with POs that having their meal breaks at out canteen in bus station...

I were about to buy E+, and was very unsure, how long it takes to get the wheel seized by them...

So I sat at their table, I did play all the YouTube videos I could quickly point, and I did ask what they'd do seeking me commuting to depot?

They were amazed by the skills to ride EUCs, they did mention you @stephen  , that they are seeing you around, but they can't see any reason to stop you

They have advised, that if I buy it and will start rolling like you on the town @stephen , just to do it the same way - respectful to the people, public, and to be conscious what I do.

They advised, if I won't do stupid things, cause public or traffic hazard, then they definitely won't have a reason to stop me.

This is why I felt encouraged to buy E+ ...

* I told you @stephen you're famous, haven't I ?   

[stephen]

19 minutes ago, PogArt Artur said:

I remember,I decided to have a chat with POs that having their meal breaks at out canteen in bus station...

I were about to buy E+, and was very unsure, how long it takes to get the wheel seized by them...

So I sat at their table, I did play all the YouTube videos I could quickly point, and I did ask what they'd do seeking me commuting to depot?

They were amazed by the skills to ride EUCs, they did mention you @stephen  , that they are seeing you around, but they can't see any reason to stop you

They have advised, that if I buy it and will start rolling like you on the town @stephen , just to do it the same way - respectful to the people, public, and to be conscious what I do.

They advised, if I won't do stupid things, cause public or traffic hazard, then they definitely won't have a reason to stop me.

This is why I felt encouraged to buy E+ ...

* I told you @stephen you're famous, haven't I ?   

Well that's good to know 😊

I do slow down around public and be respectful of pedestrians , i only ride on the road when it's wide or have cycle lanes ,i don't cause obstruction i always stay near the side of the road if cars about and when on pavement i go at steady pace, 

I ride my wheel at the town center just outside the police office and courts😊 under the town hall clock 😊 as seen in my videos

Edited May 30, 2019 by stephen

[Guest PogArt Artur]

2 minutes ago, stephen said:

I ride my wheel at the town center just outside the police office and courts😊 under the town hall clock 😊 as seen in my videos

I know you do

I might wouldn't do, but I have to!

hahahaaaa

 

[Planemo]

59 minutes ago, Mono said:

The grey area comes from the fact that most humans (including those working in law enforcement) can express (without getting any notable discomfort) self-contradictory positions depending on the situation they find themselves in and not everything which is written on important pieces of paper is necessarily acted upon.

I prefer to call it 'discretion'. When talking legally, the words 'grey area' are a very bad term. Simply because something is either legal or it isn't.

The PCSO in question either didn't know they were illegal or he used his discretion.

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

I prefer to call it 'discretion'. When talking legally, the words 'grey area' are a very bad term. Simply because something is either legal or it isn't.

The PCSO in question either didn't know they were illegal or he used his discretion.

When it becomes a discussion on word usages and connotations my authority is rather limited as a non-native speaker. Discretion seems to fit the bill well. However, whether something is legal is not always so black and white as you seem to suggest. Even judges occasionally disagree on whether something is or is not legal.

[Planemo]

26 minutes ago, Mono said:

When it becomes a discussion on word usages and connotations my authority is rather limited as a non-native speaker. Discretion seems to fit the bill well. However, whether something is legal is not always so black and white as you seem to suggest. Even judges occasionally disagree on whether something is or is not legal.

Oh I agree, even judges get it wrong sometimes.

However, in this particular case of an EUC, it's not grey, and no court (or judge) in the land would be confused as to whether it is a motor vehicle or not.

[Mono]

38 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Oh I agree, even judges get it wrong sometimes.

However, in this particular case of an EUC, it's not grey, and no court (or judge) in the land would be confused as to whether it is a motor vehicle or not.

You are most probably right. Yet almost everybody understands that not all motor vehicles are the same, even if the letters of the law treat them as exactly that, the same. Maybe that could qualify as greyifying the black-and-white being of a motor vehicle? Or, as you say, it leads to law enforcement officers applying discretion. However, I believe in Germany the letters of the law do not allow this discretion (AFAIK operating an illegal motor vehicle is the sort of crime they cannot just let go even if they feel it is insignificant) but the discretion is usually applied nethertheless even without legal grounds.

[Planemo]

25 minutes ago, Mono said:

Maybe that could qualify as greyifying the black-and-white being of a motor vehicle?

I'm not sure the UK EUC guy who got 6 points on his driving licence, nor the judge who issued them would agree to that statement!

I will re-iterate - there is no grey area. The only reasons that a police officer in the UK would not process an EUC rider are:

1. They don't know motor vehicle law well enough.
2. They do know the law but apply their discretion if circumstances allow (that means no complaints from a 3rd party and you aren't riding like a dick)
3. They have better things to do.
4. They are just about to knock off (could also be due to point 3).

The problem is, once the CPS get involved they will not apply any of the above. And they will know the law, very well. As will a court.

As we all agree on, UK police appear to fall into all the points above and the vast majority of us get lucky. Doesn't make the legality of EUC's a grey area though.

[Mono]

15 hours ago, Planemo said:

I'm not sure the UK EUC guy who got 6 points on his driving licence, nor the judge who issued them would agree to that statement!

Sure, but maybe most those who didn't get any penalty passing by law enforcement officers would agree. They are BTW in the vast majority, which doesn't mean they are right, of course  Now thinking of how small the average penalty is, you kind-of convinced me that it makes sense to consider it to be de facto a grey area, oh well...

Edited May 31, 2019 by Mono