New rider on giant wheel

[svenomous]

Oh, forgot something in my previous post: on the ride home I passed someone on an EUC going in the opposite direction!  This was by the Leary Way bridge over the Sammamish River trail in Redmond.  His wheel looked like a Z10 to me (very wide tire was the main give-away for me, as I don't know much about wheel brands/models).  We nodded to each other and went on our way.  A first for me, so I thought I'd mention it.

[t33m]

Wow I'm just finding this thread, nice progression! What's funny is I started 26 April as well. I feel like I learned pretty fast too but def at the expense of my V5F. It is trashed lol. Looks like it's 2 years old and it's been 25 days. Waiting on the MSX to come in from China now. I think you did it right, I outgrew the 15mph limit on like day 3, so the V5F is going to be for tricks and experimental mods. Waiting is excruciating.

Edited May 22, 2019 by t33m

[svenomous]

@t33m, I decided from the start that I don't want to get started on this hobby with 2-3 wheels in my garage within a few months, so despite it not being a classic "learner" wheel I went immediately for what looked like my dream machine (and I think it actually is!).  Now hopefully I won't feel the itch to "upgrade" for a good long time.  Its chassis still looks pretty good because for the first few days I had an EUC Bodyglove on it.  Since then it has accumulated a couple of minor scratches, but still looks pretty good.  The bottoms of the pedals, on the other hand, look like they've been attacked by a deranged meatgrinder.  Battle scars!

Enjoy your MSX (and the V5F meanwhile)!

[erk1024]

2 hours ago, svenomous said:

Today I finally commuted to work on the wheel, due to a rain break in the weather. 

Awesome that you can commute now! It's gotta be the most fun way to get to work. 

I also get the speed wobbles at about the same speed... right around 20-22 kph.

 

Edited May 22, 2019 by erk1024
added text

[svenomous]

The wobbles make it less fun, because I'm concentrated on what to do about them.  Shift the left foot a bit forward?  A bit backward?  How about a little outboard?  Duckfooted?  More straight-legged?  More bent-kneed?  And then comes an intersection with a red light, and my heart starts beating faster at the thought that I have to dismount, stand there in the bike lane in sight of about 20 cars, and in about a minute or two I'm going to have to mount and start moving again without looking like I'm incompetent.  Oy!  Oh, and the commute took longer than I planned, so I was 8 minutes late to my first meeting.  My own fault as I took a longer route to avoid a particularly dreaded intersection where the bike lane is between two lanes of traffic for a left turn, and because I should've given myself plenty of buffer.

All that said, I still enjoyed myself overall and plan to do it again, and again, and again, until I'm commuting to work backward on one leg!

[Dzlchef]

9 minutes ago, svenomous said:

The wobbles make it less fun, because I'm concentrated on what to do about them.  Shift the left foot a bit forward?  A bit backward?  How about a little outboard?  Duckfooted?  More straight-legged?  More bent-kneed?  And then comes an intersection with a red light, and my heart starts beating faster at the thought that I have to dismount, stand there in the bike lane in sight of about 20 cars, and in about a minute or two I'm going to have to mount and start moving again without looking like I'm incompetent.  Oy!  Oh, and the commute took longer than I planned, so I was 8 minutes late to my first meeting.  My own fault as I took a longer route to avoid a particularly dreaded intersection where the bike lane is between two lanes of traffic for a left turn, and because I should've given myself plenty of buffer.

All that said, I still enjoyed myself overall and plan to do it again, and again, and again, until I'm commuting to work backward on one leg!

Try carving next time you start to wobble.  Tends to cure it for me.  Don’t go too fast yet, you need to feel very confident in your skills first. 

[svenomous]

@Dzlchef, carving is basically a weave to the left, a weave to the right, etc., right?  Basically, it's leaning S-turns.  To a small degree this is of course always possible, but when in a bike lane or shoulder with cars whizzing by 2ft away, the freedom to carve feels more "constrained."  I've tried a slight lean/turn when wobbling, but should make a more conscious effort to really S-turn and see if it improves things.

I've searched the forums and reviewed some of the numerous threads on the subject, and the advice is all over the place.  I get the physics of the problem, in that basically we're dealing with a harmonic oscillation, and just as the threads reveal that people have dealt with the problem successfully in various ways, I believe that there are probably numerous ways to aggravate or improve this, including rider CG vs. wheel axle, degree of leg extension, relaxation vs. "stiffening" of leg muscles, shifting weight onto one leg, foot positions/angles, and speed, the one thing that is universally claimed is that it just gets better with time and experience.  I will of course continue to actively look for ways to mitigate during my "wobbly period," while also hoping my cerebellum/muscle coordination somehow figures out how to minimize and dampen these oscillations on its own.

[mrelwood]

I think that the main reason the wobbles go away with experience is relaxation. A new rider with tense feet will wobble easier, and as the new muscles get tired (very fast), that increases the wobbles as well. An experienced rider rides with relaxed feet, which helps with both the wobbling and getting tired legs as well.

[svenomous]

Ah, so...Valium!

[t33m]

Slow carving helps me. Drifting back and forth moreso than aggressive carving. Btw since we've been riding about the same time. Do you still get foot pain? Depending on the shoes 20-30mins and my feet get super uncomfortable.

[svenomous]

Yes, 20-30 minutes sounds about right.  Pain eventually turns to slight numbness in the front halves of my feet.  This is another sign, presumably, of "not being relaxed."

Going out right now for some practice at the loading docks.  Will try some anti-wobble strategies including shifting weight and carving (which is another form of shifting weight).

[Dzlchef]

3 hours ago, svenomous said:

Yes, 20-30 minutes sounds about right.  Pain eventually turns to slight numbness in the front halves of my feet.  This is another sign, presumably, of "not being relaxed."

Going out right now for some practice at the loading docks.  Will try some anti-wobble strategies including shifting weight and carving (which is another form of shifting weight).

Blink and you’ll be riding for 4-5 hours without issue.  Of course that would include a break with nourishment to keep it civilized. 

[svenomous]

Thanks @Dzlchef!  I'm sure that's true.

Had about 45 minutes to practice somewhere out of the way (loading dock area behind a commercial building after work hours).  First I made two changes to address comfort (and possibly modify my "wobble experience"): changed ride mode from hard to medium to get a little more softness/dip, and re-calibrated to set pedal angle a few degrees backward (instead of a few degrees forward).  I don't remember what made me think that hard ride mode was better a couple of weeks ago, and don't remember which of many threads I read in these forums led me to believe that "a few degrees forward" was a good way to set the pedal tilt.  However, after some more reading I did get the sense that there might be less toe and ball-of-foot pressure (and pain, and numbness) if I set level or rearward angle.  Btw I've crossed the 200km threshold and set the 3rd-level alarm and tilt-back to 31mph, with the 2nd-level alarm still set to my previous limit of 24mph.  I feel crazy fast at 24, and have yet to exceed that, but I also see no reason to force tiltback except at the safety limit.

Anyway, I made these config/calibration changes and proceeded to do some acceleration/cruise/deceleration tests, plus a lot of mounting for confidence-building. It was quickly obvious to me, with all the 180-degree turns involved, that the pedal dips that happen due to non-level calibration are annoying: I'd speed along with slightly backward tilt, which felt kind of nice, then turn and for a few seconds I'd be in a forward tilt instead, and could feel the pedals slowly move into the backward tilt position again.  Maybe I would get used to that, but after a few minutes I decided, at least for now, to try perfectly level calibration for a while, where pedal tilt can't be felt to change during turns.  Whether it was due to changes I made, or due to my brain/muscle control having improved, I got little wobble even at alarm speed (24mph), although some wobble when "emergency braking."  Slightly less forward foot position seems to lessen braking wobble.  Foot positions pretty far outboard seem the most comfortable due to less leg/knee pressure against the EUC body and pads.  Overall, foot comfort seemed improved by the changed angle, or maybe by the changed ride mode...not sure.

Practiced mounts and concluded that actually I'm more stable/confident when mounting with my left (non-dominant) foot first, and then stepping up with the right foot.  Previously I was almost always doing the reverse.  I feel much more confident about mounts now, and this will be tested at my 2nd work commute tomorrow.  I'm even going to brave the intersection that most scares me, the one where I'll have to stand in a bike lane between two lanes of car traffic, waiting for the light to turn so I can turn left.  If I stumble there, I'll have a whole lot of very impatient drivers watching me as I get myself sorted out.

Did a lot of runs up to alarm speed and back down to step-down speed, and also some minimum-speed maneuvering (mostly straight-ahead) at walking speed, to practice corrections and keeping a straight path at those speeds.  Confidence continues to increase.  This weekend it looks like there will be one non-rainy day and I plan to do a longer ride on mixed-use trails, my first long-distance ride.  I'll bring a backpack and a lunch!  Meanwhile, if anything of note happens on tomorrow's work commute, I'll report back.

[meepmeepmayer]

• It's good that you limit your speed and don't increase it too fast. Too high speed is probably the #1 reason for falls, and should you have a first fall (if unavoidable) at lower rather than higher speeds.
• The pedal angle should ALWAYS stay the same, no matter how you initially set it. If your pedals dip forward in turns compared to going straight, that is a bad calibration. Make sure the wheel is not tilted sideways (left/right) during the entire calibration (that throws the sensor off), and that it is still (lean it against something firm and hard, not hold it in your hand). Doesn't have to be super exact, but too much sideways tilt or twisting of the wheel position gives you the pedal dipping.
• Do a ride where you have to start and stop as little as possible and you can just ride, meander, explore. Your commute doesn't sound very fun and relaxing with the constant stopping. Your weekend plan seems good.

[binks00]

I believe wobbles come from the muscles. I have 1000+ miles on wheels and the only time I wobble any more is when muscles are super fatigued, when I squat to get under low branches, or when it's freezing out and I start to shiver. 

Try standing tall almost to the point of locking your knees next time you wobble and that will remove your muscles from the equation and see if that helps. Fatigue on leg muscles and feet can be reduced by moving your feet while you ride. Try and lift one of your heels for 10 second while riding and get the blood flowing in there again. Also, shift a foot forward or backwards an inch to use a slightly different portion of leg muscles and give the tired a rest.

[mrelwood]

While it’s easy to give recommendations to the pedal angle, riding mode and foot position, eventually they are all up to what the individual prefers.

I always set the MSX tilted 3 degrees forward, and 16S something like 4 degrees backwards. The wheels do behave that much differently.

At some point you might want to try different shoes as well, since the most comfortable choice isn’t always very obvious.

It’s nice to read about your progress, you’re doing good!

Edited May 24, 2019 by mrelwood

[svenomous]

Thanks, @mrelwood, I'm having great fun with the new hobby, and even starting to see some utility value.  I look forward to my long ride this weekend.

@binks00, indeed, locking my legs into a very straight posture does greatly reduce or eliminate wobbles, although it's not sustainable.  It does prove that the muscle tension/reaction dynamics are in play, and it gives hope for the future.

@meepmeepmayer, I've read threads on calibration, and about the fact that pedal angle shouldn't change during turns.  I've done every calibration with a bubble level and my phone.  The bubble level was positioned to ensure lateral verticality, while the phone was used to measure degrees for forward/backward tilt.  I'll admit that in each case I've gripped the wheel between my legs, positioned it until I deemed everything just right, and then initiated the final calibration sequence.  I felt like I was keeping the wheel very still during the beeps, but I guess accelerometers/gyros may be more sensitive to noisy data than I thought.  I guess my next task is to find a good wall to lean the wheel against, get it propped up just right, and try again without my legs as the supports.  Then I'll ride and see what happens.  Btw, if I calibrate to level (no tilt), I feel no dips in turns.  Only if I set some degrees of forward or backward tilt do I experience a reverse dip during every 180-degree turn.  If pedals are set 3 degrees backward, at the end of the 180-degree turn I can feel they are dipped forward instead of backward, taking a few seconds to slowly tilt back to the "correct" angle.

[meepmeepmayer]

Hm maybe the sensors are so susceptible that even a calibration with a forward/backward tilt only throws them off?

Make sure the wheel stays still. The calibration may not be over when you think it is. My GW beeps a shitton but I have to switch it off and I suspect only after that the calibration really happens.

Never trust those damn wheels, always assume the worst or most nonsensical thing to be possible

[svenomous]

KS calibration starts with a request via the app.  Upon initiating the procedure via the app, the wheel turns off and stops balancing.  One would then align the body precisely as desired, and once that's done hit the power button.  The wheel powers up and goes through a series of beeps, while it figures things out, and then goes into a long continuous beep.  During the continuous beep it is done but telling you to shut it down.  You power it off and back on, and verify the calibration results.  I'll try it tonight with more stable positioning as discussed.

[svenomous]

Today was a rite of passage for me: the first "long-distance" ride.  This was a 45.55-mile loop from my house, much of it on dedicated paved trails, with 1,588ft elevation gain/loss on the route.  Max speed 24.1mph, average speed (not counting two breaks) 13.4mph.  These are "real" distance and speeds per GPS routing/tracking.

Here are the KingSong stats (keeping in mind that a "KingSong mile" is somehow a lot longer, and a "KingSong mph" is somehow a lot faster than the real thing): 53.5 miles traveled, average speed 15.4mph, max speed 25.1mph.  Total KS mileage is now 228.5 for this wheel.  I left home with a fully charged battery pack and arrived back 4 hours later with DarknessBot indicating 25% remaining battery as I rolled up to my garage.  After 2 minutes of voltage recovery this had increased to 33%, after 10 minutes to 35%.  The KingSong app on the other hand indicated 34% at arrival, 42% after 2 minutes of recovery, and 45% after 10 minutes.  I'm guessing the discrepancy is due to the fact that KS runs cells down all the way to 3.0V, unlike other manufacturers, and DarknessBot is not accounting for that.  In any case, this indicates great range, since 45 real miles with 1,600ft of climbing, and still having about 25-30% battery left is pretty good.  This gives me confidence that I can expect a minimum of 50 real-world miles out of this wheel at my weight, at least in normal urban/suburban riding at moderate speeds.  In some situations this may even stretch to 60 miles.

For today's ride I had a pretty aggressive rearward calibration of about 4 degrees dialed in, and while this does help keep the feet better planted on the pedals (and weight distributed instead of too much on the balls of the feet), I've decided that this may be a bit too much for my comfort, so I did reset to 2 degrees rearward when I got home.  The medium riding mode (which I was on today) seems pretty comfy overall, but I want to try the "soft" mode for a few days to see what that feels like.  The main ergonomic problem on this ride was foot pain/numbness, and lifting one heel at a time while shifting some weight off the same foot, for about 10 seconds, provides enormous relief, but that relief is temporary and after 20 miles or so I was definitely ready for my lunch break.  I had a small backpack with a sandwich and some water.  Eventually the ankles were slightly strained, the feet were tingling, and during the second half of the ride I could feel that my legs were starting to get "trembly."  I was mostly in a dead-lift stance, which provides excellent shock absorption over the unfamiliar and sometimes quite rough trails.  It doesn't strain the back much, but the legs and glutes sure have to take a lot of tension for a long period of time.

Wobbles are almost gone!  Sometimes it wobbles just a bit, but it either dampens out on its own, or a slight shift in stance or speed fixes it.  Some downhill wobbles in the last 10 miles, in part because I was definitely getting fatigued.  When they do happen, wobbles don't feel as alarming and perhaps as a consequence of a different attitude toward them, they seem to just deal with themselves.  Mounting is almost flawless now, with just one false start today.  I still feel self-conscious when I feel observed and/or under time pressure to mount, though.

I took one fall, due to a circumstance beyond my control: I was moving along at about 15-20mph and two bicycle riders were oncoming in the opposite direction.  Nothing unusual so far, as the trails are clogged with people and riders today.  However, these two riders were only paying attention to each other, riding side by side with heads turned toward each other and talking, and suddenly they apparently decided it was time for a U-turn on the trail, so they both veered into my path when I was maybe 20ft away, completely unaware of my approach.  I had time to yell "watch ouuuuuuuttttttt!", was able to decelerate just a bit, and then I had one foot off the side trying to "skate" to a stop while veering away from a full side swipe collision.  Just before hitting the rear wheel of one of the bikes, which was still basically crosswise on the trail, I let go of the wheel with the other foot and fell forward with one hand hitting the rear wheel of the bicycle.  I avoided a full-on collision, the wheel didn't hit anything, and my right knee pad took the brunt of the actual fall.  I'm guessing the wrist guards also did their thing, but I can't remember how hard they impacted.  No damage except the right knee guard has a scuff in a corner and one of my shoes is scuffed up on top as well.  The rider was apologetic and made sure I was OK, so in the end it was all good.  In retrospect I wonder if I should have just run off the wheel and let it continue without me, but trying to stay with the wheel as long as possible allowed me to prevent 50lbs of electrified mass from plowing into the side of that bicycle...so maybe I did do the right thing.

I think that's all I have to tell.  This was fun, tiring, confidence-building, and at least incrementally skills-building.

[t33m]

I added a -5.0 to my V5F and the foot pain is significantly better. I'm no longer feel like I have to constantly press on the balls of my feet.

[svenomous]

I agree that pedal tilt angle is an important factor for foot comfort.  Good for you that you've improved your foot pain, @t33m.

[erk1024]

2 hours ago, svenomous said:

Today was a rite of passage for me: the first "long-distance" ride.  This was a 45.55-mile loop from my house, much of it on dedicated paved trails, with 1,588ft elevation gain/loss on the route.  Max speed 24.1mph, average speed (not counting two breaks) 13.4mph.  These are "real" distance and speeds per GPS routing/tracking.

Congrats! Seems like you've now graduated from your (self-administered) EUC riding school!  

That's awesome! Now you can start lusting after which next wheel to buy...

Edited May 28, 2019 by erk1024

[svenomous]

No!  Must...not...buy...a 16X!  Must.....resist!  Seriously, though, I intentionally skipped the normal upgrade path to prevent having a "stable" of wheels to feed and care for.  Unless there's a damage or functionality issue, I don't see myself buying anything different for many months.

[erk1024]

17 minutes ago, svenomous said:

I don't see myself buying anything different for many months.

I'm not disappointed with the performance of the 18XL at all. You can go from a polite pedestrian dodging walking speed to scary fast in two or three seconds. It would be great if it was silent like the MSX. Might be nice to have a fatter tire to soak up bumps. Of course, everything is a tradeoff. But overall, really really happy with the 18XL. 

Probably smart to wait a while and see and see what new goodies Gotway and Kingsong have for us.