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Joff

IPS 122 tilt forward on acceleration

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I recently purchased a used IPS 122 on ebay.  I have several Electric unicycles already (including a kingsong 18) but I figured for $ 227, why not?  I really don't like the feel of it. It tilts forward a lot on acceleration.  I feel like I am going up on my tippy toes to stay on. On bumpy ground, it can tilt so far forward that the front edge of the plastic fender catches on the ground and I have to hop off!  On slowing down it, it tilts back. I don't mind having tilt back at high speed to keep me from going too fast,  but I really don't want all this tilting back and forth at low speed. Is there any benefit to it? It does not have bluetooth. Can the motherboard be swapped with one that does have bluetooth, and if it can, would I be able to adjust the ride feel as I can on my Kingsong?

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In short wors:

Its weak as hell and the pedal setting is , too! Thats an wheel which i guess has come to market 3 years ago?

So not to wonder that its not like the actual wheels. 

With very great luck you might find a board that works with an algorythm that fits to the number of magnets of this wheel, but i 100% doubt that.

Also that would not change the main problem, a weak motor and a small battery/power available.

So no, no chance to make it better...

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2 hours ago, Joff said:

don't mind having tilt back at high speed to keep me from going too fast,  but I really don't want all this tilting back and forth at low speed. Is there any benefit to it? It does not have bluetooth. Can the motherboard be swapped with one that does have bluetooth.

What you are describing doesn’t (IMHO) have anything to do with tiltback. What I think you are describing is just a very “soft” riding mode which allows a lot more peddle travel as you lean forwards and backwards. I’m not at all sure it is anything to do with motor power (unless you are very heavy) as the IPS 122 wasn’t a particularly lower powered wheel.

Are you certain it does not have Bluetooth? There was a lot of confusion with model numbers as to what motor, battery and Bluetooth, or not, that they had. I’ve had a trawl around this site and there is no obvious evidence that this version, without Bluetooth had a very soft ride, the versions with access to an app were configurable so could be set very soft?

perhaps the below thread might help you further? 

BTW, like @KingSong69, I think the odds of a different motherboard will fit are not high, the phasing, etc. Is quite motor specific - if you can find a board with Bluetooth intended for the IPS 121 or 122 that would probably work, but if another board (say for a KingSong) worked it would likely be extremely good luck only.

Edited by Keith
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It's a 1000 watt motor and climbs hills well. Battery is also bigger than on my generic UC and Airwheel x8.  The tilt forward "feature" does seem to keep me from using it's max torque. Perhaps that is the purpose My wife rides it more gently and it doesn't bother her.  

 

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3 minutes ago, Keith said:

What I think you are describing is just a very “soft” riding mode

Yes!  it is in super soft mode! Just not familiar with the terminology.  It is worse than the "beginner mode" on the kingsong. I figured it did not have bluetooth because my phone can't see it when I turn it on. I don't have a manual for it.  I could take a look inside. Could be a bluetooth card in there that isn't working.

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7 minutes ago, Joff said:

I don't have a manual for it.

From what I’ve been able to find the manuals are about as useful as a chocolate frying pan and it certainly isn’t easy to find a 122 specific one but here are a few of them:  http://www.amh.at/pdf/IPS111_Manual_Gebrauchsanweisung.pdf (it is in English despite the link)

or this generic one:http://www.electricunicycleonline.com/blog/ips-electric-unicycle-english-manual/

The later LHotz model manual is here: http://www.pcrsmalta.com/IPS/manual/XIMA_LHOTZ_Manual.pdf I think @IPS Malta posted that link so he may also be able to give slightly better advice?

The App, If you do find you need it is linked from here:https://www.ipselectricunicycle.com/electric-scooters/

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5 hours ago, Keith said:

 I think @IPS Malta posted that link so he may also be able to give slightly better advice?

 

Just because they asked for it. No specific reason that was to solve their issue. ;) as you said " as useful as a chocolate frying pan "

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Update.   I haven't been riding this one , as I don't like the extreme soft ride.  I lent it to a fellow who was thinking about buying it. He crashed it a few times. If you tilt  it forward too much the front fender hits the ground and bends into the tire, locking it up. This does not seem to match up with the torque and performance I have read about for this EUC. ) He brought it back with a dead battery. I thought it was full charged when he got it, but it didn't last him long.(couple miles?)  It had enough charge to turn on but not function.  I put it on the charger and if flashed red for an instant and then green indicating either full charge (not!) or no load. On my other EUCs, I can measure battery voltage at the charge port. I see nothing at the IPS's charge port. Opening it up to access the battery directly, I measure about 50 volts with seemingly no amps behind it. Can't make it spark. When you hook it directly to it's 67 volt charger it goes to 67v and shows no load on charger (green light) It is a complicated battery with several connectors and  lots of  wires. Could it be that this thing had a weak battery all along? It seemed to go uphill pretty well if ya didn't push it too hard.    What are the symptoms of a battery giving up?

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5 hours ago, Joff said:

Update.   I haven't been riding this one , as I don't like the extreme soft ride.  I lent it to a fellow who was thinking about buying it. He crashed it a few times. If you tilt  it forward too much the front fender hits the ground and bends into the tire, locking it up. This does not seem to match up with the torque and performance I have read about for this EUC. ) He brought it back with a dead battery. I thought it was full charged when he got it, but it didn't last him long.(couple miles?)  It had enough charge to turn on but not function.  I put it on the charger and if flashed red for an instant and then green indicating either full charge (not!) or no load. On my other EUCs, I can measure battery voltage at the charge port. I see nothing at the IPS's charge port. Opening it up to access the battery directly, I measure about 50 volts with seemingly no amps behind it. Can't make it spark. When you hook it directly to it's 67 volt charger it goes to 67v and shows no load on charger (green light) It is a complicated battery with several connectors and  lots of  wires. Could it be that this thing had a weak battery all along? It seemed to go uphill pretty well if ya didn't push it too hard.    What are the symptoms of a battery giving up?

Not beeing able to measure a voltage at the charger port is normal for many EUCs (reverse polarity protection diode)

Trying to make a battery pack spark is very dangerous! You had good luck that yours is "dead". A normal EUC battery pack will evaporate good chunks of metall/wire pieces when you try this!

The combination of showing 50V, not charging anymore (going immedeately to 67V from the charger) should be a sign of at least one dead cell (?pair/triple?). Also the super soft riding mode and tipping forward could come from a weak battery.

You should measure the individual cell voltages and you'll see. There where already some success reports of recharging this bad individual cells. (!_not_ with the EUC charger! - you'll need some liion cell charger!). Also, if i'm remembering correctly one of the reporters could recharge the bad cells, but it could not hold some comparable charge to normal anymore?

Don't try to recharge cells that have 1,5V or lower (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/low_voltage_cut_off)

Don't expect nothing to happen if you short some  battery cells(no matter if charged or not!). Don't ever try to make them spark!

With the IPS som of the many wires could be directly connected to the individual cells (BMS is on the mainboard?) Should be 17 wires for 16 cells.

Anyhow once you recharge bad/weak cells in the pack you should open the pack and watch closely the cells for optical changes/strong temperature rise!

Also if you manage to revive your pack, be prepared that the bad/weak cell(s) have condiderable less caoacity then the rest of the cells which will leave the whole pack quite weak and lead to unbalanced cells again after some recharges!

Edited by Chriull
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7 hours ago, Chriull said:

Trying to make a battery pack spark is very dangerous!

Agreed. I had reason to be fairly sure there was no power behind it. I used a quick motion and a long steel wire with enough resistance to avoid dropping a lot of amps, just in case. 

 

7 hours ago, Chriull said:

With the IPS som of the many wires could be directly connected to the individual cells (BMS is on the mainboard?) Should be 17 wires for 16 cells.

Yes, BMS is on mainboard. I have 17 red wires and 2 black ones on two connectors (not counting the heavy gauge black and red power out) I have 32 cells. (260Wh battery) I assume they are wired in pairs. 

8 hours ago, Chriull said:

The combination of showing 50V, not charging anymore (going immedeately to 67V from the charger) should be a sign of at least one dead cell (?pair/triple?).

Good to have that narrowed down. I wasn't sure how to rule out mainboard issues with all those bms wires going there. 

 Thank you so much for your diagnosis and help!

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52 minutes ago, Joff said:

 

Yes, BMS is on mainboard. I have 17 red wires and 2 black ones on two connectors (not counting the heavy gauge black and red power out) I have 32 cells. (260Wh battery) I assume they are wired in pairs. 

 

32 cells is 16 pairs in serie. So your 17 red wires could be used to measure the individual cell (pair) voltages. Maybe there is one black wire used for the start (0V) and there is a black/red pair for sonething else ... You'll see once you measure the voltages...

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The cells are divided up into two packs. A big one with 24, that is mounted on the side of the EUC and a 8 cell pack that fit on top. Maybe there is one black wire for each pack? Not sure about that, as both wires seem to go to both packs. 

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The two black wires were wired together,as it turns out. Starting on one end, the first nine pairs had about 3.5 volts each. Then I found one bad pair that had less than .2v (180millivolts) it also had 1.3 mega ohms resistance which explans why the pack wouldn't pass current. after that there was a 3v, 2.7, 2.8, 2.9 and a 3.4

I guess I have to buy one of those battery spot welders to fix this thing right aye? I am having fun with this, I feel like I am working on future tech!

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Any tips on buying replacement battery cells?  There are no specs written on them. just a bar code and string of numbers  18650NRH10          141119081811

I recognize  18650 as the size type. Searches on 18650NRH10 show specs of 2000 mah. If the whole pack has 32 cells in 16 pairs and has 260wh does 2amp hour per cell make sense? I don't come out with the right number. Is the equation   2*3.7*32=watt hours of the pack   Correct?

I figure I want to match the amp hours of the other cells, is that important, anything else I need to worry about? 

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I am not the right expert on this, but you would need to assess the other cells first and install cells with similar characteristics. A stronger cell might stress the others more and a weaker one will struggle to keep up with the rest. Maybe a new battery pack is better and use the existing pack to make power banks. @Keith and @Slaughthammer sound like have more knowledge on this

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On 4.2.2018 at 5:26 PM, Joff said:

Any tips on buying replacement battery cells?  There are no specs written on them. just a bar code and string of numbers  18650NRH10          141119081811

I recognize  18650 as the size type. Searches on 18650NRH10 show specs of 2000 mah. If the whole pack has 32 cells in 16 pairs and has 260wh does 2amp hour per cell make sense? I don't come out with the right number. Is the equation   2*3.7*32=watt hours of the pack   Correct?

I figure I want to match the amp hours of the other cells, is that important, anything else I need to worry about? 

The internal characteristics ("internal build up/chemistry", internal resistance) is important, so the cells behave similar while charging and discharging. 

So for building such packs "perfectly" one should have many cells of the same type and measure them for similar "behaviour"

See http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/serial_and_parallel_battery_configurations and http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_803a_cell_mismatch_balancing for more details.

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I bought a sunkko 788h battery spot welder. It made fast easy work of welding nickel strips on to the new batteries.  I got the new batteries in and put it all back together. I put it on the charger and it turned red - good! Then it turned green, then red again. It cycled back and forth for hours. That didn't seem right, but I wasn't sure. The charging circuit runs to the board, rather than the battery first, Then I hooked a different charger directly to the battery's power wires, then it charged normally.  Put it back together and it seem to work for a little while, then when I put a load on it it went weak and beeped and flashed like low battery. The battery level was good. check some things, put it back and then it worked. I was able to ride it around for 10 minutes or so, then it fell over and went bad again, beeping and flashing  like the battery was nearly dead.   All the wires looked good and trying a different battery didn't help. I opened the controller and found a solder joint by the fuse that looked like it was blackened by sparking. I resoldered that and it has been running and charging on the original charger fine.  It still feels weird compared to my Kingsong 18aw, but totally usable now. It is not the same in either direction, The "tilt forward" on acceleration is less when I put the "on/off switch towards the front.  Has anyone heard of this:  It tilts forward when making right turns and back on left turns. Not too bad, but I don't think I am imagining it. Maybe I should re-calibrate the balance?

Edited by Joff

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I checked the balance and it was way off. I recalibrated it with the help of the PDF Fabio posted.  Handles great now!  Thank you everyone for all the help on this!

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keep an eye on the batteries anyway and the range, the BMS on IPS will keep an eye to ensure safety but check batteries are being balanced occasionally. If you had the BT you could have checked with the app easily, but other cells (which are old) are more likely to be stressed and quicker to die since mixed with new ones.

BTW as a general rule, if it the charger is cycling red/black don't keep charging and identify any issues (in which case you did, while I am writing for future readers)
 

Thanks for keeping us posted and well done for the successful intervention :)

Edited by IPS Malta
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On 2/13/2018 at 12:35 AM, IPS Malta said:

BTW as a general rule, if it the charger is cycling red/black don't keep charging and identify any issues

Good to know!   I figured it was doing a little charging and that was better than none!    As it turns out, my celebration of success was premature - I got some good rides in, and could see how well this thing can go when it is working right,  but it is non-functional again!  The battery still had power but it acted like it needed a charge. I put it on the charger and it did the red then green then back. I took it apart and put it on the charger to see how far the power was getting..then it started charging properly...up to 62 volts. then the charger showed steady green. I could see 67v from the charger getting to the solder joints on the board. I could see 62 volts on the board coming from the battery. I made a amp tester out of a 60 watt 120v incandescent light bulb so I could be sure the connections are flowing power and not high resistance. The voltage of the battery is not dropping under load. I hooked the charger directly to the battery and it charged fine. I stopped it at 66 volts. when put back together it seems normal for some seconds, then the on button starts to blink red/green and the balance starts getting weird, then the beeping starts. The battery  power  remains good and the connections to the board are good. I feel I have  the problem narrowed down to the board.  Anyone have a schematic?  Know a good source for replacement boards?  I'd like to get the one with bluetooth, if that would work. Would control board for a 121 work as well or would that have different battery cell balancing connectors?

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@Joff I will verify if the Bluetooth version is compatible after Chinese spring festival. Btw happy New year of the dog ;). I assume that it is, yet double check again with balancing first, as that may still be an issue with balancing and the board is actually reporting it. 

Note that the bms it's on the board so  if you charged directly all together you might have overcharged singe cells which is not healthy for the pack. Try charging the cells individually using an appropriate charger if available such as rc charger (if not you might need to discharge cells that have higher voltage and charging slowly ensuring none of the cells gets above their allowed voltage) and get all cells to same voltage (no need to get them to full charge but same voltage within their range), then allow them a few hours of rest disconnected and ensure they keep balance. If not that's a cell issue as they shouldn't discharge so quickly. Connect to the board for few hours and test voltages again. If voltages are all still the same then give it a try and see if it's performing this cycle well. If it does (at which state the bms should be minimally working due to the already balanced) the cell transplant is not fully compatible so you will need an aux balancing circuit to charge it (though I would rather change all the battery for safety concerns). To confirm it, you might get the same error after a few cycles and individual voltages should be imbalanced. 

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5 hours ago, IPS Malta said:

may still be an issue with balancing and the board is actually reporting it

That is a very important point! I have checked it and they all seemed quite close in voltage to each  other, but i don't know the specs. I will check again and write them down. I sure don't want to spend $250 on  a board and have the same problem!

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I checked the BMS voltages most of them had 4.06 The highest was 4.10,  and the lowest was 3.95  I put the thing back together barely enough to try it out. Heat sink not screwed down and wires hanging out.  Seemed to run fine. It was just putting around in the basement.  Beeped once when got back on it and bumped the wires. I didn't to push it too hard with the heat sink not attached to the case. I will put it together better and give it a good ride tomorrow. If it starts trouble (and I think it will) I will check the battery balance again. 

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I started with 65.5 volts ran it for 26 minutes doing figure 8s and 10 feet forward 10 feet backwards. It kept working, I just got tired of doing it. 

Edited by Joff
Typo, wrong number!

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After 26 minute ride, voltage is 62.4   I put it on the charger, it seemed to charge steady but after a few minutes I checked it again and charger went  green after only getting it up to 62.9

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