Which one should I buy?

[Johey]

Looking to upgrade my wheel. Currently have the Airwheel X8. This is my first week I'm confident enough riding it to work, 6 km. No serious injuries so far, other than a few scratches on the X8. 

There are a few reasons for me looking on alternative wheels. First, I'm a 100 kg heavy piece of fat. The announced maximum distance of 22 km is reduced to 6. Today is my third ride to work, fully charged, and each time the wheel has warned me for low power exactly when I arrive. Riding home seems to be a little easier, with one led still lit, so I guess there is a little more uphill the way to work.

Anyway, the second problem is the speed limit. The X8 starts breaking at about 12 km/h, just before it beeps. The beep itself is annoying, but worse is that it causes stretching on my feet, which is uncomfortable and reducing my balance. I need to slow down to approximately 10 km/h to avoid this, which is like walking speed.

So in short, the main issues are the short distance and the speed limit. I need a wheel much more powerful and with a speed limit of 20 km/h (maximum according to Swedish law). If the wheel is more powerful, there need to be a setting so I can reduce to 20. Preferably with a logging function so I can prove that it was set to 20 at a specific time (if I for instance cause an accident).

I have been reading threads here and seen reviews at youtube. Still not sure what model to buy. KingSong seems to be the most interesting brand, but I can't decide for the model. The wheel on the X8 is 16", right? Doubt I'd like to ride a smaller. I guess the 14" would be quite sensitive to bumps and small obstacles? Though, I've read reports of failing 16" and 18" models of both KingSong and Gotway, which makes me think they are not really ready for prime time. Is there any report for a failing 14" wheel?

Anyway, what would you recommend in my case? Keep my 100 kg weight in mind, as most reviews just mention the specified max distance, which obviously is not close to reality for me. Budget is not the biggest issue, but I need to know that I get what I pay for. There's no store in Sweden where I can try different models out, so I likely need to import from UK or DE, if not China.

[Chriull]

34 minutes ago, Johey said:

Looking to upgrade my wheel. Currently have the Airwheel X8. This is my first week I'm confident enough riding it to work, 6 km. No serious injuries so far, other than a few scratches on the X8. 

There are a few reasons for me looking on alternative wheels. First, I'm a 100 kg heavy piece of fat. The announced maximum distance of 22 km is reduced to 6. Today is my third ride to work, fully charged, and each time the wheel has warned me for low power exactly when I arrive. Riding home seems to be a little easier, with one led still lit, so I guess there is a little more uphill the way to work.

Anyway, the second problem is the speed limit. The X8 starts breaking at about 12 km/h, just before it beeps. The beep itself is annoying, but worse is that it causes stretching on my feet, which is uncomfortable and reducing my balance. I need to slow down to approximately 10 km/h to avoid this, which is like walking speed.

You are quite a fast walker

34 minutes ago, Johey said:

So in short, the main issues are the short distance and the speed limit. I need a wheel much more powerful and with a speed limit of 20 km/h (maximum according to Swedish law). If the wheel is more powerful, there need to be a setting so I can reduce to 20. Preferably with a logging function so I can prove that it was set to 20 at a specific time (if I for instance cause an accident).

With most of the wheels you can only set the tilt-back at a certain speed. Around here in the forum are some logging apps for smartphones which show the whole driving profile (including speed). Don't know if this could help as prove before court, but i'd assume not really. In the best case it's a "hint" for the judge...

Setting a real hard speed limit of 20 km/h would mean that the wheel shuts off at 20 km/h - and that's something you don't want for sure 

34 minutes ago, Johey said:

I have been reading threads here and seen reviews at youtube. Still not sure what model to buy. KingSong seems to be the most interesting brand, but I can't decide for the model. The wheel on the X8 is 16", right? Doubt I'd like to ride a smaller. I guess the 14" would be quite sensitive to bumps and small obstacles?

You have already decided for Kingsong, because you posted in the Kingsong subforum? If not it would be better to ask a admin to move this thread to "general discussions" to get more opinions/suggestions.

Beside Gotway and Kingsong there are by now quite much ?positive? reviews/reports about Inmotion here. I don't have any experience with them, but maybe you should look at them, too?

34 minutes ago, Johey said:

Though, I've read reports of failing 16" and 18" models of both KingSong and Gotway, which makes me think they are not really ready for prime time. Is there any report for a failing 14" wheel?

About every brand/wheel fails by now. There are enough reports of Airwheel's failing around here, too... ;(

34 minutes ago, Johey said:

Anyway, what would you recommend in my case? Keep my 100 kg weight in mind, as most reviews just mention the specified max distance, which obviously is not close to reality for me. Budget is not the biggest issue, but I need to know that I get what I pay for.

For safety reasons one should choose a wheel with a pack with at least two cells in parallel (~320-380 Wh) or much better 4 cells in parallel (~680 Wh). Then "overleaning gets much harder" and also cut-offs from "overloads"...

And with this battery capacities you should have no probs with the distance...

And for the resulting weight of the wheel with a ~680Wh battery pack an integrated trolly handle is almost a must!

 

[Keith]

+1 with @Chriull. Inmotion, KingSong, Gotway Ninebot and IPS all have big followings here whatever their foibles, none of these would be a bad decision.  As far as failure reports are concerned, there are a lot of"test pilots" on this forum so issues get spotted and magnified, we are nowhere near the perfect EUC yet and the single most important thing is knowing, and staying within their limits. To emphasise that point, you have an airwheel, take a read of this thread and see how it fits with your experience: 

You should be able to set most wheels that have a mobile phone app so that tilt back and beeps become too insistent to go any faster at 20kph. Several start off in Learner Mode, and will not let you set maximum any faster than 12 or 15 until you have achieved some goal. In reality, few people in this forum seem to be happy with any wheel that won't let them do at least 25kph and the Kamikaze pilots won't except anything less than 40! 

[Pingouin]

Hi,

Although today there are many wheels capable of reanching the 30+ kph, I would highly recommend, and this is my choice, to get a wheel of new generation but to limit the speed to 20-25kph, a high torq version, or limit the speed with tilt back in your app, because yes it is very fun going above 30kph, most of the time accidents don't occure and if they do they are not that dangerous, but there might be one time it will change your life forever.

At 20-25kph if the wheel shuts off, you can jump and run ( a normal human being can run at these speeds, let's say up to 28kph), but if you are above 30kph, it is most likely you will face plant, if their is some kind of rigid obstacle in front of you it can be disastrous.

Unlike a bike, an EUC is new, and it is entirely dependant of the good functioning of its stabilization compenents, you can trust it, but don't over trust it, I think EUC are formidable, but they need to be riden with this little fear that keeps you from doing stupid things. It's ok to go sometimes over 30kph, but when you taste these speeds you always want to go fast, and it is then that it might become dangerous. Everyone is free to do what he wants and his own risks, but I highly suggest you not to able your wheel to go too fast, even with protections, but again it is only my opinion, there are reports on this forum of riders going fast with no issue, but again they have about 1 to 3 years riding time, in 10 years, what could happen ?

I have a wheel that beeps at 23kph (real odo speed), that has the tilt back at 27kph, but whenever I hear the beep I stop speeding, when I ride with someone who can go faster I feel a little jealous, but at the same time I remind myself why I choose a high torq and not a high speed EUC, "safety first". Last thing, +20kph is not that slow, it's even a little above the average speed of a bike in a city.

[Johey]

Thank you Chriull and Keith for valuable insight!

I haven't for sure decided on KingSong, but it looks to be a good shot, hence posting in KingSong forum. This question is more about which module would be best suited for me of the 14, 16 and 18 inch KingSong. In the end, the decision might fall on another brand, yet the KingSongs are in the focus at the moment.

Scary to read about failing X8's. Though I'm not trying to push the limits, I haven't had a tour yet with no beeps. If it would fail on me at a narrow path where cars ride beside me, ungood things could happen. I'm wearing a bike helmet, though no idea if that gives more than a false feeling of confidence.

Regarding most reports of failing KingSongs, there seems to be a firmware bug triggered when starting from standing position. I've seen the problem is addressed and there is a firmware fix in the pipe. That gives me a little more trust in KingSong than for instance Gotway, where their sellers are defending and directing the responsibility to someone else rather than dealing with the problem. Trust in the manufacturer is valuable too.

Anyway, as I've posted this thread in the KingSong forum, let's compare their different models. The 14 inch wheel is smaller than on my X8, right? Is there anyone who has been riding both the X8 and the KS14? I'm afraid it will feel more stiff and have more problems with small stones and other obstacles? Or is that compensated for by other means?

Pingo: Whatever model I chose I want to limit it to 20 km/h to comply with Swedish law. At least when reading in traffic or city. I know the limit is just a warning beep and tilting, but that's how it works. If it would slow down the motor, you would fall forward.

[Pingouin]

Hi,

A 14-16-18 inch wheel changes the comfort and manoevrability mostly, and the range. In simple, the smaller the wheel, the better the ability to make sharp turns and the range on the same battery, but the harder the bumbs. The capacity of the battery will also influence your ability to do stunts further on.

Gotway and Kingsong all have their faults. You can also look at ninebot, IPS, Kholts, for me they are quite even (except for the battery capacity).

I haeven't riden a X8, but I have a KS16B, Ninebot One E+, KS14C, MCM4, MCM2...for me it's not harder to get on a 14 when you come from a 16, I found it even easier to get on, just a little less comfortable a speeds. The KS14 is a very safe unit, you can't go wrong with it.

[Johey]

Is the range really affected by the size of the wheel? I mean, a bigger wheel would of course need more power from the motor for a full rotation, though a lower number of rotations for the same distance. To me it sounds like a status quo (other than the added weight of the larger wheel of course, but that should be a minor point in the total).

[Keith]

1 minute ago, Johey said:

Is the range really affected by the size of the wheel? I mean, a bigger wheel would of course need more power from the motor for a full rotation, though a lower number of rotations for the same distance. To me it sounds like a status quo (other than the added weight of the larger wheel of course, but that should be a minor point in the total).

Range really isn't directly impacted by the size of wheel, slightly easier rolling resistance is offset by increased weight, but bigger wheels have more space, generally, for bigger batteries - having said that the KS-14 manages to stuff in a pretty big battery. Against that the new inmotion's higher voltage seems to increase the efficiency.

The advantages, disadvantages and, indeed many of the questions you are asking here have recently been discussed in another thread - my explanation of the use of the different wheel sizes in that thread is below, but the whole thread is well worth reading:

 

[Chriull]

3 minutes ago, Johey said:

I haven't for sure decided on KingSong, but it looks to be a good shot, hence posting in KingSong forum. This question is more about which module would be best suited for me of the 14, 16 and 18 inch KingSong. In the end, the decision might fall on another brand, yet the KingSongs are in the focus at the moment.

I only know the KS16 ( and from before my Ninebot One E+) - so i only have experience with 16 inch wheels.

The KS16 is imho the only one from KS with a build in fan. Since in summertime (high ambient temperatures) especially for heavier riders going uphill most/all wheels tend to overheat thats a very nice functioning option, as reported and experienced by now. (Better would be a solid heatsink design - but better a fan than a overheating Wheel. There is no experience by now how long the fan lasts. Presumably longer than the rest of the wheel - but noone can report, since the wheel is quite new)

If you tend to the KS14 or KS18 there are reports here about how to mod the heatsink design/build in a fan to get sufficient cooling for high stress situations. Could also be that with "normal" driving in mainly flat areas you'll also never encounter a overheat situation with these wheels.

And the build in trolley handle of the KS16 is marvelous - if you have to move it around without being able/allowed to drive it - if you dont't just ride and put it in your garage/car/flat/etc ...

As already mentioned don't save money and go for the ~340Wh models - take at least the ~680Wh, also if you do not need the extended range. This just enables the wheel to support you better and increase your safety and reduces battery stress. The 680Wh packs have 4 cells in parallel instead of just two. So each cell has to deliver only half the current and additionally the internal battery resistance is only half - so less voltage drop and more stable/safe driving possible.

So if you ride well within the limits, take care of the feedback the wheel gives you (balancing gets more soft, never ignore warning beeps, etc...) you could also get happy with "just" 340Wh...

I don't know how the actuall state is by now (battery packs delivered with the KS) - but @1RadWerkstatthave(had?) their own BMS/battery packs for the KS they sell and they have invested quite much know how and experience to choose the best available BMS and battery pack configuration. It could be, that KS uses the same technology by now, since they are in intense contact.

Just as a hint, if you need some argument to decide between different resellers...

A good recommendation is anyhow to stay with known resellers, who have proven in this forum their competence and their great and hassle-free aftersales service! There are quite some from within the EU active here, which could deliver to Sweden... (imho the same should be true for the other brand wheels...)

3 minutes ago, Johey said:

Scary to read about failing X8's. Though I'm not trying to push the limits, I haven't had a tour yet with no beeps. If it would fail on me at a narrow path where cars ride beside me, ungood things could happen. I'm wearing a bike helmet, though no idea if that gives more than a false feeling of confidence.

For higher speed driving a chin protection (full face helmet) makes sense in case of a sudden faceplant. But its more limiting to wear... ;(

3 minutes ago, Johey said:

Regarding most reports of failing KingSongs, there seems to be a firmware bug triggered when starting from standing position.

Yes. But that's more a nuisance and not the best reputation for KS, but nothing really dangerous - it's unlikely to fall or get injuries from this...

Just the own pride could get damaged after such a failed start with audience around...

A last point to all the actual KS/Gotways - the have quite some high frequency noise (around 8kHz). For some it does not really matter - other have to live with a permanent tinnitus or use ear plugs... And i do not know if there are other comparable modells on the market without this high pitched sound.

[Pingouin]

1 hour ago, Johey said:

Is the range really affected by the size of the wheel? I mean, a bigger wheel would of course need more power from the motor for a full rotation, though a lower number of rotations for the same distance. To me it sounds like a status quo (other than the added weight of the larger wheel of course, but that should be a minor point in the total).

In my experience, the bigger the wheel, the more torq is demanded to move the wheel, so it makes a difference at acceleration and deceleration, not a cruise speed.

[Johey]

I decided up on the KS16. Just placed my order.

[Xoltri]

Nice choice, the KS16 is a great machine.  It comes limited to 20km/h too so no need for you to unlock it I guess.  I do have to say though that the first time I went 30km/h on it it blew my mind.

For safety equipment I wear a helmet and a set of wrist guards.  I have the 840wh version and am also 100kg.  I can get to work and back (25km) just before it starts restricting my speed to 29km/h (as the battery gets lower it will progressively limit you to 29, then 28, then 27km/h).  But for you that's a non issue, at a slower speed your range should be a lot higher.

I also purchased a fast charger which I really like.  It charges so fast that I can store the wheel at 80% charge which is better for the battery and then top it off before I ride.  I turn the wheel on and then lay it on its side (so the motor isn't being driven), then use the app on my phone to monitor the charge level.  

 

 

[HEC]

27 minutes ago, xoltri said:

Nice choice, the KS16 is a great machine.  It comes limited to 20km/h too so no need for you to unlock it I guess

I agree. KS-16 is a solid wheel although with some minor imperfections as basically any other wheel out there so it's best to get familiar with those by reading through the forums here. In regards of the pre-set speed limitation to 20 km/h - on one hand it might be good to not unlock the wheel as then there will be no possible dispute as you simply can't go any faster on other hand the safety margin given you after unlocking the wheel might be beneficial in case you need to avoid some obstacle or act quickly in some dangerous situations. Also after while you'll get a bit bored by limited speed. Finally wasn't the speed limit in Sweden 25 km/h rather than 20? Maybe @thefork or other guys here from Sweden can chip in on this point (see more details in thread below). This also brings an interesting idea for KS firmware update - option to lock the speed back to factory settings (as currently you can only unlock it and once it's done there is no way back apart of replacing the controller board).

 

[US69]

23 minutes ago, xoltri said:

Nice choice, the KS16 is a great machine.  It comes limited to 20km/h too so no need for you to unlock it I guess.  I do have to say though that the first time I went 30km/h on it it blew my mind.

For safety equipment I wear a helmet and a set of wrist guards.  I have the 840wh version and am also 100kg.  I can get to work and back (25km) just before it starts restricting my speed to 29km/h (as the battery gets lower it will progressively limit you to 29, then 28, then 27km/h).  But for you that's a non issue, at a slower speed your range should be a lot higher.

I also purchased a fast charger which I really like.  It charges so fast that I can store the wheel at 80% charge which is better for the battery and then top it off before I ride.  I turn the wheel on and then lay it on its side (so the motor isn't being driven), then use the app on my phone to monitor the charge level.  

 

 

Just a tip for others:

Another Option for fast charging is to buy a Charge doctor V2, which can handle the Input of 2 chargers...it has 2 Standard-Connections for Input....

So you can put 2 chargers(KS, Gotway etc) with 2 Amps on it and then have a 4 Amp Charge Line......and also the nice Charge Doctor, where you can adjust the max Voltage/Amperage to stop charging at 80 or 90% or what you want automaticly...to have a longer Batterie life....

For me that was the cheapest to become fast charging....as i have had 2 "normal" 2Amp KS chargers and so only had to pay just about 30 bucks for the CD V2 :-)

[HEC]

6 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Another Option for fast charging is to buy a Charge doctor V2, which can handle the Input of 2 chargers...it has 2 Standard-Connections for Input....

2 input version needs to be ordered explicitly as otherwise it's one input by default and it's extra 2 EUR  As you can get 4A fast charger at aliexpress from $40 it's more or less the same price for either solution.

[US69]

8 minutes ago, HEC said:

2 input version needs to be ordered explicitly as otherwise it's one input by default and it's extra 2 EUR  As you can get 4A fast charger at aliexpress from $40 it's more or less the same price for either solution.

In Europe then plus minimum 20% VAT(or even Germany)....and as the CD itself has some very nice Options....i think that the CD is always the better choice

As i spoke to hobby16 the last time, i understood it so, that he has not got the one port Version any more....and that he was just a bit to lazy to update his Website

But whatever: Nice to know there are alternatives, or?

[HEC]

10 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

In Europe then plus minimum 20% VAT(or even Germany)....and as the CD itself has some very nice Options....i think that the CD is always the better choice

As i spoke to hobby16 the last time, i understood it so, that he has not got the one port Version any more....and that he was just a bit to lazy to update his Website

But whatever: Nice to know there are alternatives, or?

CD is definitely worth it's cost - no dispute there. And in some countries (like Sweden :D) $40 still fits under import tax / VAT and duty limits plus all the Chinese sellers are usually declaring a lower value on the package itself anyway. If you don't have already second / spare "slow" charger (those are usually about $20) you're probably best to get fast charger anyway in addition to CD as you will avoid fiddling with two chargers all the time plus will end up with spare charger (always useful in case your main or only charger goes bust so you'll not end up without way of charging your wheel for a while) which you can then take to another location like office or summer house if needed and so on  

[Johey]

I think the fast charger is included, right? I bought from wheelgo.

Regarding speed limit in Sweden, it is 20 km/h for self-balancing units to be defined as a bike class 2. For electric bikes where the motor is a complement to manual power, the limit is 25 (you can go faster, but the motor must not help you over 25).

[US69]

6 minutes ago, Johey said:

I think the fast charger is included, right? I bought from wheelgo.

Regarding speed limit in Sweden, it is 20 km/h for self-balancing units to be defined as a bike class 2. For electric bikes where the motor is a complement to manual power, the limit is 25 (you can go faster, but the motor must not help you over 25).

Yeah! It is included...sure!

If you do not know: The "Charge Doctor V2" is a Little tool for us,  which can help for "documenting" charging and for longer Batterie life...You see Volt's, Amperes, watthour's in real time etc etc.

Here is a post about Version 1 and 2.0...the newest "V2.1" has two entrance ports to double up charging Speed when using two chargers:

there are some other thread's about it....hobby16 also has a own Website, where he is selling this helpful Thing for about 25-30 Euro.....

[Johey]

Ok, I'll buy a Charge Doctor. It fits the KS16 without adapter? Is it the same charger plug and pinout for the KS16 and the Airwheel X8?

[Keith]

20 minutes ago, Johey said:

Ok, I'll buy a Charge Doctor. It fits the KS16 without adapter? Is it the same charger plug and pinout for the KS16 and the Airwheel X8?

Just tell him what wheels you want to use it on, if it needs an adapter for one of the two he can probably supply that as well. 

I've got the KS-14, but I'm fairly sure the 16 uses the same charging plug the GX16-3 as shown here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-New-Aviation-Plug-3-Pin-16mm-GX16-3-Male-and-Female-Panel-Metal-Connector-/121019014539. Is that the same one as the Airwheel?

[HEC]

25 minutes ago, Johey said:

Ok, I'll buy a Charge Doctor. It fits the KS16 without adapter? Is it the same charger plug and pinout for the KS16 and the Airwheel X8?

Yes it's using the same GX-16 plugs and sockets as on KS-16 and majority of other EUCs / Wheels. Fred has only two standard models of CD - one with GX-16 connectors and one for Ninebots.

[Johey]

Happy coincidence that almost all manufacturers agreed to a standard? Must be a world-first!