KaleOsaurusRex Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 So this might be something people are already considering, but I read a thread today where another person had their micro unicycle "shoot like a bullet" out from under them. This has happened to me and my lady both, and I think this needs to be engineered out of the equation. So I'm thinking about a weight sensor to tell if you're on the thing, that triggers a rumble pack or something to make the loose wheel lose balance. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 It's a question that has been addressed many times before.The solution is simple, you keep a large amount of reserve power for keeping balance which is what all the slower good quality wheels do. Trouble is people want speed and to live on the edge so basically you pay your money and make your choice, a relatively safe high powered slow wheel or a performance wheel that has no spare power for safety.Until motor technology improves the power without increasing the weight significantly we are stuck with that simple choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaleOsaurusRex Posted June 21, 2015 Author Share Posted June 21, 2015 Gimlet! Thank you for addressing my concern. You're one of the most experienced members here so I'm excited to hear what you think. Am I correct in thinking you're addressing the concern discussed in this thread here?:The issue I'm bringing up this time is more like the unicycle is working TOO well. It ghost rides and rides itself! More user error that needs a technical remedy ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 If you're talking about the wheel continuing to go onwards on its own, after the rider has fallen or jumped off, the problem with any sort of automatic braking or heavy rumbling, when the wheel senses no weight on top of it, will be problematic when you jump down a curb or such, unless it has some delay before it activates. If it activates during "air-time" while jumping, it could cause accidents by itself. If it has delay, the wheel will still have some time to go forwards without rider if it gets "loose", and the rumbling would have to be pretty strong for it to make the wheel fall down if it has more speed. Automatic braking would probably work, except the wheel can throw "cartwheels" and still keep going forwards, and it would be super-dangerous if it occurred while the rider is on top of it.One "safer" way would be to make the wheel non-balanced by itself (more weight on one side than the other), so the center of gravity isn't on top of the tire, and the wheel tends to turn or fall towards another side when going on its own, but this would likely also make it harder to ride. Other could be more controlled deceleration (but not strong braking) when the wheel senses no weight, but it would have to be fairly powerless, so you don't fall to your face jumping when the tire hits the ground again, in case the wheel was auto-decelerating and couldn't get back up to speed right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 The vast majority of wheels with a few exceptions are unbalanced in that they have the relatively heavy battery on one side and the light control board on the other. It's the gyroscopic action of the wheel itself that keeps it going fairly upright and that will keep it upright with a huge amount of weight imbalance.Presently the motor stops when the wheel reaches an angle of 45%. Maybe it could be possible to have it stop when there is no eight on it for a few seconds, there would have to be a crtain delay otherwise it would cut out when dropping off kerbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkoMarjamaa Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I had a small leash from EU's handle to my leg for some time. Just for safety feature because when I was still learning there was one time when I thought I lost my balance and I jumped off or it so neatly that it kept going for 10 meters before I could catch it. It hasn't happened anymore so I don't user the leash anymore.Suddenly EU speeding by itself hasn't happened to me, I ride Airwheel X5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I've had the generic wheel run off from me once when learning riding backwards with it. I was in an empty parking lot, and it rolled to a nearby ditch. Other times the wheel has gotten loose have always ended up with the wheel falling to its side within a meter off running. The Firewheel hasn't (yet?) ran off from me, still, especially with a heavier and faster wheel like the Firewheel, it could cause an accident, were it to roll into a car lane or such, or hit something or someone at high speed. I thought about what someone said about attaching the strap to the handle and the other end to your belt, but at least with my weight, the wheel could pull me so hard I'd fall, or imagine it getting caught under a moving car or falling of a bridge or something with yourself tied to it... I've never experienced the sudden speeding myself, hobby16 said his Firewheel has a sudden strong acceleration after hitting 28km/h, but mine doesn't have it, don't know what's up with that. I did have my first fall with the Firewheel today, after losing balance going over some larger ground frost-caused "ripples" in the asphalt, managed to stop the wheel and it fell to its side, but so did I... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 A leash is always a good idea in crowded and sensitive areas. I always attach it to my trouser belt with quick detach clips at both ends and just a few inches of slack so it can't get caught in the wheel.Once you step off the extra 4 inches or so of slack allows the wheel to travel about 3 feet or so away from your feet but no further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkoMarjamaa Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Idea of the leash was that it was only a 30-50 cm long and it would not stop the wheel but make it fall.Of course that would not work if you are riding faster than 10km/h because when speed doubles, kinetic energy quadruples so when you are riding 40km/h, there's 16 times more kinetic energy compared t0 10km/h Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Maybe if the leash/strap was the kind that releases after causing a sudden pull to the wheel, so it would cause the wheel to fall but not pull you with it.Something like this:But with "correct" strenght so that the lock releases (opens) after a hard enough pull. If you were to dismount and run off a fall, and the wheel was left behind you on its side, the strap tied to you wouldn't faceplant you but just release. Same if the wheel got away (backwards or forwards) from you, the sudden pull before the lock gives up would cause the wheel to fall, but you wouldn't fall due to the pull caused by the wheel..? The strap probably should be attached to the side of the wheel, not in the centerline on the handle, so the pull would throw it off balance even when the centrifugal force is keeping it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Here's a crude TinkerCAD design of what I was thinking about:The "jaws" should cause enough tension when the wheel a causes pull on the strap to slow it down/cause it to lose balance, while a pull with "too much" force would still release the lock, and not make the person in the other end of the strap fall down... The strap should be tied to something else than the handle of the wheel, probably a pedal frame or such, to cause the pull come "sideways" to the wheel to throw it off balance/fall it. There could be an adjustable spring between the jaws to give it enough "strength" to not let go too easily, yet release at enough force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirGeraint Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I think that I would probably try the leash myself (until I had a reason not too). I'm just learning about EU's and I haven't even ridden one but for a shutoff I thought that maybe something like they use on Seadoo's (and other Personal Watercraft, PWC) where you attach a cord to yourself that has a magnetic dongle and plugs into the PWC. When the rider falls off (and unplugs dongle) it kills power to the PWC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 I think that I would probably try the leash myself (until I had a reason not too). I'm just learning about EU's and I haven't even ridden one but for a shutoff I thought that maybe something like they use on Seadoo's (and other Personal Watercraft, PWC) where you attach a cord to yourself that has a magnetic dongle and plugs into the PWC. When the rider falls off (and unplugs dongle) it kills power to the PWC. In the case of the EU it would be cool if it automatically decelerated as fast as it could until it was fully stopped and then it could topple over.The usual way to start is with the strap (that usually comes with the wheel) tied to the handle and keeping the other end in your hand. Once you learn to stop the wheel without it getting anywhere, you stop using the strap so you get both hands free for balancing. But in cases where the wheel suddenly gets loose, it would be useful to have a way to stop it from running into anything/anyone, without still pulling you and causing you to faceplant (imagine a 13kg wheel going at 30km/h getting away and you tied to it). Keeping the strap in your hand is not practical either for "real" riding past the practice phase.Cutting the power from the wheel may or may not be enough, as the turning tire can keep the wheel upright for surpisingly long. Thinking about self deceleration, it might work, but not because it actually decelerates, but because the shell will tilt and hit the ground as there's no weight on the pedals to stop it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirGeraint Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 The usual way to start is with the strap (that usually comes with the wheel) tied to the handle and keeping the other end in your hand. Once you learn to stop the wheel without it getting anywhere, you stop using the strap so you get both hands free for balancing. But in cases where the wheel suddenly gets loose, it would be useful to have a way to stop it from running into anything/anyone, without still pulling you and causing you to faceplant (imagine a 13kg wheel going at 30km/h getting away and you tied to it). Keeping the strap in your hand is not practical either for "real" riding past the practice phase.Yeah, I think I knew most of that from what I've read here. I've also read that some like to just connect the strap (or a leash) to their belt so that their hands are free but the EU isn't able to go to far without them. When I said I would use one until I had a reason not to I was meaning a bad spill where having it attached to my body might be a bad thing. I'm sure like many things there won't be a perfect solution that suits everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 It's never caused us a problem. Compared to the weight of a person the weight of a wheel is insignificant and when you come off even on the M18 the momentum keeps it travelling in the same direction as you so to be honest you hardly notice it, even at speeds in excess of 25kph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmadonna1401 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 People its good exercise if you have to chase your unicycle. Besides it will fall over eventually at least it does with my airwheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 @bmadonna that isnt really the point. Its protecting third parties from any injury or damage that matters. That is very important here in the UK where they haven't formulated any rules to apply to eucs yet.We dont want any stupid new knee jerk reaction laws being made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaleOsaurusRex Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 That is exactly my concern Gimlet. I think the micro unicycle manufacturers probably look here for ideas on what to make, and if we want to keep riding free, this might be an issue we need to address in order to retain a good or at least neutral public image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planetpapi Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I support the leash idea when you are on the public streets to protect third parties. If the strap appears too much, try thinner but stronger leashes so they are barely there. I spent couple of bucks for mine. But for my butt kissing ground incident I didn't have the leash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I think we're all guilty of complacency sometimes. I have found myself in the centre of town on an unplanned visit a couple of times now with no leash.Luckily it is rare and normally I have a good idea of where I'm going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mengke Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Had the same experience with my girlfriend, as a matter of fact, she never ride it again after that incident. Have talked with engineering team at Ninebot regarding this issue. Among the fan group of Ninebot, the recommended solution is the same as what we have here , a leash. or just use the training belt. Response from Ninebot, from design point of view, it is not hard to achieve but very hard to make it always reliable when you ride. People do jump and go through different terrain with Ninebot, if there is a weight sensor there, it might malfunction when in normal ride and shut off the unit and make you fall. So they are aware of the issue and has no plan to do any modification on top yet, because it might create more risk. I suppose a dead man strip like what they have on running mill could be the way to go. But I am not to sure if it is too much for an electric unicycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaleOsaurusRex Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 There are many ways one could try with the right knowledge and resources. I love that quick-release leash idea Esa. I think until we have a more technologically advanced system in place, perhaps we need to build in to the unicycle culture the feature that we encourage every rider to use a light gauge quick-release leash in populated areas merely because it is the rider's responsibility to protect bystanders from injury.But I don't think the leash is a good long term solution. Most people won't follow this rule. This is a problem that anyone who is manufacturing micro unicycles should be spending money to address if they want to maximize likelihood of mass adoption!I'm imagining a tire pressure monitor could trigger the cut off as well. There must be some way to combine multiple sensors to create a more accurate reading; it would definitely need testing.The Xtreme Unicyclers can just use the increasingly common bluetooth app to tweak or disable the safety settings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmadonna1401 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I personally think the leash is a good idea I don't see how anything very techniciaial could be invented. Also how experienced are the people riding in populated areas I know I wouldn't be unless I know my skills are up to par seriously I think this thread is a bit more extreme then it has to be I think the leash is a good susgestiin along with common sense don't ride in a populated area if your a new rider sorry if i have spelling errors I'm on my phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetricUSA Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I am surprised that they never put in a kill switch like they do for jet skis, you jump off and the cord yanks the key out, instant shutdown... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkoMarjamaa Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Nowadays I ride on the piers near the water. It means I'm not scared anymore EU would run away over the edge. I think other people are also safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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