What are your thoughts on the Adventure?

[Punxatawneyjoe]

7 hours ago, novazeus said:

is suppose to go over the display and power button.

Yes, that is what that is for, inmotion's half ass fix.

[Unventor]

18 hours ago, Eyss said:

You can understand people's confusion since begode is mentioned a lot by even the diehard inmotion riders. Of course, only negative comparisons are on topic and positive ones are definitely off topic. 

 

Companies shouldn't lie, but I'd rather they lie about suspension travel than IP ratings. The v13 is the only wheel I've had malfunction after riding light rain (lights, sound, display stop working). A local rider had his controller die after water go in through the power button supposedly.

Please read the header of this topic. If you want to discuss another model there are other threads for this or create a new one that match this.

All I ask is for people to respect the threads and stay on topic. 

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

Please read the header of this topic. If you want to discuss another model there are other threads for this or create a new one that match this.

All I ask is for people to respect the threads and stay on topic. 

too expensive compared to other models. my thoughts on it.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

On 9/27/2023 at 4:13 PM, Unventor said:

Please read the header of this topic.

 

On 9/27/2023 at 4:13 PM, Unventor said:

All I ask is for people to respect the threads and stay on topic.

You make a valid point, however the way i understood it was that @Electric Dreams had posted it to highlight his video again and had intended on answering questions that people had about the wheel. Which hasn't happened. There already was a thread for discussing the Inmotion v14 that @techyiam posted a few weeks before this one.

[Scubadragonsan]

The only thing I like about it is its fast charging. Other than that, it doesn't have the range nor speed I want.

[0000]

@Electric Dreams

• Do you know if the 50GB batteries are potted within their respective cases?
   
• What is the actual/measured outside diameter or better yet, circumference, of the stock tire? Can probably just look it up if given size and model of tire. I'm curious if it measures close to 20" diameter.

So general thoughts on design and features then:

For a wheel in the suspension category, it looks like Inmotion has made significant strides in many areas to make a generally superior offering to seemingly most other suspension wheels available yet.

Some of the Pros:

• Raptor controller - should be lauded for properly packaging/sealing the mainboard alone, to say nothing of performance. It's a very sad state of affairs to see my RS motor controller perpetually covered in dust and grit being relatively exposed to the elements. Sealing the computer keeping you upright from the environment is common sense so great job there.
• 6mm Phase wires - a good improvement, puts them between 9/10 AWG. Never made sense to skimp in this area, especially since thicker phase wires can help pull heat from the motor coils that are constantly baking from current demands (particularly at higher sustained speeds). 8AWG or thicker would be even better. More trapped heat in the motor coils = less efficiency = less range.
• C40 magnets - fantastic, more available torque for acceleration is always nice.
• Motor rim - no comment on material strength, but I like that there are no spokes to carry mud or anything which also makes for easier cleaning.
• Mudguards - coverage looks good, especially blocking the shock. It's definitely a plus that mudguards come from the factory nowadays. Curious how they are attached though for ease of replacement if/when needed.
• Swap-able batteries - very nice modular design and the improved connectors are also appreciated.
  • Proper flat surface for velcro-ing pads is the way and geometrically functional as well as separated stock brake/accel pads is a nice bonus.
• Smart BMS - very nice, great that it includes temperature probes as well so you can make an informed decision about maximum charge current (to limit potential battery degradation through heat accumulation)
• General layout, overall geometry, and ergonomic considerations look pretty well thought out.

Cons (or potential cons):

• Color scheme - color isn't really differentiating brands these days so I don't think it makes sense to try and own a color scheme for any wheel manufacturer as I don't think brand loyalty is what drives most sales in the EUC industry, at least in the Western world. Plus, people clearly like to individualize or personalize their wheel so offering multiple color themes makes sense. It's a shame potential buyers are forced to choose the Halloween color scheme or nothing as it doesn't look like it would be hard to offer 3-5+ different color schemes given the colored parts involved.
• Trolley handle looked unnecessarily high in your video @Electric Dreams which exacerbates play and contributes to less control taxy-ing the wheel. Could just be an artifact of the prototype version though.
• Relatively small screws retaining sliders-->pedal hangers have limited (vertical) separation to resist component forces induced by bending moment on pedal hangars. I don't know if this is a real problem, but if it was you would see these screws tend to shear over time, perhaps from unanticipated crash loads.
  • Unfortunately screw pattern separation is somewhat limited due to slider body geometry and if the forces from harder use or crash loads exceed the fastener tension, they would need to use larger bearings to accommodate a more robust connection. Going to assume they did the math though and this isn't a real problem.
• I saw the Begode Extreme had some issues bending one of the mounting shafts of their rear shock and the fix removed the aftermarket shock option. Hopefully the geometry of the adventure suspension linkage better accounts for the combination bending and shear forces experienced by both of the shock mounting shafts. Typically I don't think these mountain bike shocks have to account for such distant separations between the load bearing surfaces otherwise they'd probably be bushed for (a) larger shaft(s) from the factory.

I pulled these renders from the Adventure launch event-  it's interesting that they've shown what looks like different bushing configurations, one necessitating a smaller OD shaft (probably just a render artifact though). I only bring this up because I had a similar situation on a DIY e-bike where I pressed out the rear air shock stock bushing to replace with a thinner bushing allowing for the use of a larger 12.7mm shaft IIRC.

Other thoughts:

• The Adventure specs a 32S4P battery configuration using the Samsung 50GB cells which, looking at the battery spec, the "B" refers to bottom vent as a safety feature I'm assuming to primarily control explosive pressure in the event of thermal runaway. This being the case, I assume the performance is exactly the same as a Samsung 50G which is on generation 2 now yielding notable temperature improvements under continuous discharge loads shown here vs 50G(1). That being said, the promo advocating 16A charge current will prematurely age your batteries and decrease their range far earlier than if you stuck to the industry standard of 0.5C which equates to 10A in the 4P configuration for these 5000mAh cells. Samsung specifically alludes to this charging reality or tradeoff as their maximum 4.9A/cell charge current is "not for cycle life".
   
• If the batteries within their respective cases aren't potted, I think potting them would be a good improvement as it promotes better heat distribution and dissipation by removing all air-gaps and protects against any possibility of moisture intrusion. Let's be real too, lithium cells that aren't getting repurposed are not likely to be recycled anyway so I think the safety improvements gained through potting probably exceed the additional weight and loss of serviceability especially as each pack is separate and can be separately replaced.
   
• The last bit on Adventure Launch Event video referring to environmentally-friendly and "renewable materials" is just *chefs kiss* utter Baizuo nonsense, but I guess someone knows their audience well as the dominant propaganda in the West has quite thoroughly and successfully rebranded the deliberate wholesale gutting of our domestic manufacturing to Asia and thereby our collective ability to rise up the economic opportunity ladder as "actually a good thing" ^TM.

Not going to count them, but we're looking at hundreds of announced and in-construction new coal plants going up right now. We can never buy enough electrical trains, windmills, solar plants, ev cars, etc. to offset this carbon footprint, but we can pay more to get less, support "green" taxes while inflation and COL rises eat our lunch (literally), and help through willful ignorance and cult-like belief to enshrine ridiculous regulations like carbon credit taxes such that domestic manufacturing and the resultant economic opportunity never returns. I'm sure we'll get it right this time though upsetting the whole apple cart with UBI paying people to exist and those in the East willingly slaving away in factories to produce real goods for those imaginary credits. It's amazing to me how the average Western person today now shares the same concerns as your average billionaire lacking even 1/100,000 of the resources these lunatics have to distance themselves from the consequences of their beliefs. Whatever, I digress.

TL;DR: Inmotion has what looks to be a very good offering, and hopefully the first production run pans out without serious issues. Price-point is probably accurate for market success. Weight with anything in this category of suspension performance is always going to be over ~80 lbs without rewriting the laws of physics, it is what it is.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Vanturion
slider not damper, derp

[mrelwood]

 

4 hours ago, Vanturion said:

• What is the actual/measured outside diameter or better yet, circumference, of the stock tire? Can probably just look it up if given size and model of tire. I'm curious if it measures close to 20" diameter.

It’s a 12” rim, so with a beefy 3.0-12 knobby tire it would come up to around 17.5” outer diameter.

4 hours ago, Vanturion said:

• General layout, overall geometry, and ergonomic considerations look pretty well thought out.

I’ve been baffled that more people don’t see this right away.

4 hours ago, Vanturion said:

• I don't think brand loyalty is what drives most sales in the EUC industry

I’m certain that it is very prominent. It seems very obvious especially in the B camp, and somewhat in the I camp as well.

4 hours ago, Vanturion said:

• it doesn't look like it would be hard to offer 3-5+ different color schemes

It would be a disaster for the resellers to stock several colors of the same wheel. Most shops around the world are fairly small, and besides the latest and the greatest the wheels aren’t in constant rotation as is. Introducing several separate models, they would be forced to stock just one or maybe two on a good day anyway.

4 hours ago, Vanturion said:

• I saw the Begode Extreme had some issues bending one of the mounting shafts of their rear shock

The issue with the Extreme suspension is that when hitting the bottom the coils bind before other parts get to stop the travel in a controlled fashion. An issue never seen before. Their solution to the issue is even funnier. They should’ve just used a properly measuring coil.

4 hours ago, Vanturion said:

Weight with anything in this category of suspension performance is always going to be over ~80 lbs without rewriting the laws of physics, it is what it is.

There are definite weight savings to be made if the manufacturer were up for it. The motor requires it’s copper and magnets, but the frame and cover can surely be made lighter by choosing better (and more expensive) materials. I was also hinted that the Adventure battery boxes are way heavier than one would expect for their cell count (possibly due to possible potting). I’m certain that they could be made solid enough a structure with less weight. And so on. There are several kg’s to be saved if they just had the intent. But no manufacturer has been concentrating on weight savings yet, so here we are.

[0000]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I’ve been baffled that more people don’t see this right away.

I haven't been paying much attention lately, but that's kinda sad if people can't immediately pick up on the differences in quality from the launch video. I read your other post just now on this vs Master and yeah, you put it better, basically how Inmotion appears to continuously build on improvements vs others falling into break-fix cycles sometimes repeating older mistakes with newer wheels.

I agree with your pre-order sentiment too. If you're the type to risk pre-ordering a wheel hoping to avoid the historical first batch shenanigans we're all aware of, I think the Adventure would be a much lower risk considering the attention to detail that's evidently gone into the design.

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I’m certain that it is very prominent. It seems very obvious especially in the B camp, and somewhat in the I camp as well.

Hmm, well maybe it was more an aspirational statement than a reflection of reality. I was coming from the perspective of this being, on average, a male, techy-oriented product where I would think the decision to buy is based more on a researched assessment of features, performance, price-point, maintenance considerations, and estimated safety & reliability over any kind of brand loyalty. Like who cares who makes it, if it's a good product by all measures, then they should get the sale. Maybe you're right and that's not what's happening on average though. That said, unless Inmotion somehow drops the ball in some unforeseen fashion on first batch production, I think it's going to be easy to be an Inmotion fan with this one.

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

It would be a disaster for the resellers to stock several colors of the same wheel.

I don't know about that. Vendors could choose what colors they stock based on what they think their future customers will want or get a good idea of the color scheme popularity based on pre-orders. Inmotion could also make it easier to color match by leaving out (or making them black) the anodizing/powdercoating of the wheel and/or suspension linkage so then it's just color matching the plastics. There are reasonable options here that doesn't leave us prep'd for Halloween 365d/year.

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The issue with the Extreme suspension is that when hitting the bottom the coils bind before other parts get to stop the travel in a controlled fashion.

Hmm, I haven't been following closely and only saw the fix the other day where they made a custom part to extend the bearing surfaces which looks like they were trying to limit the bending moment on the shaft given how far away the bearing surfaces, shock body (lug) to linkage (clevis). Didn't know people were bottoming out their shocks. Yeah, high impulse forces exceeding design loads (probably a safe assumption) will not play nice with the small OD shaft especially given the distance between bearing surfaces.

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

There are definite weight savings to be made if the manufacturer were up for it.

I disagree, speculation and reasoning...

I assume each aluminum? battery case thickness is sized to withstand a certain design load imparted in a crash to keep them from cracking. Internally the motor is already optimized for weight looking at the aluminum stator ribs. I'm also assuming they stuck as much copper as they could fit in the coil windings which is what you want. If anything it would be better if the phase wires could be even large to help shed heat in the motor for greater continuous efficiency. The rim is minimal and aluminum and the thickness is likely optimized for durability. The vertical dampers are what they are - maybe there's some minor gains to be made with magnesium housing and thickness. I assume the accel/brake pads are fairly lightweight high density foam or something with plastic outer plastic guards (nice touch). They even spec lighter-weight pedals stock. Tire is probably not multi-ply scooter grade so that's already as light as possible. Protective plastics at the top have appropriate coverage for crash protection and are presumably suitably light being plastic. The 4P configuration in this 21700 size is as low as you'd want to go pending some kind of massive battery improvement. I guess they could spec an air shock to save a little weight if they make one for the compression force requirements.

So potting aside, where would you make improvements for any meaningful weight savings? I'm not an Inmotion fanboy, and based on what I can see, I suspect they did the math and optimized things where ~39 kg? (or whatever this wheel came out to) is likely as good as you can get with this type of suspension design, particularly as any good design would need to account for non-uniform crash loads too for long-term durability.

Besides, from a manufactures point of view, they really want all their batteries potted in these products if they're smart. Given a large enough population there's always some that do some who do really stupid stuff and if you can eliminate moisture ingress (as well as long-term electrolyte leakage and salt bridging near battery contact surfaces) as a risk factor completely, that goes a looong way making sure your products never make the news as the cause of devastating property fires.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how the other manufactures respond over time as it looks like we both agree that Inmotion has leapt far ahead the competition with this offering.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Vanturion

[mrelwood]

 

2 hours ago, Vanturion said:

I was coming from the perspective of this being, on average, a male, techy-oriented product where I would think the decision to buy is based more on a researched assessment of features, performance, price-point, maintenance considerations, and estimated safety & reliability over any kind of brand loyalty.

I really like your idealism! But unfortunately that’s not what can be seen on this forum or our local chats. The ones that truly do buy brand agnostic, do it like this: “Product ‘Crapshoot’ advertises 10 Watts more peak power than product ‘Elegance’, so I disregarded all other aspects and the fact that the numbers are all made up anyway, and chose ‘Crapshoot’ because I don’t want to cut out riding calmly at 30km/h.”

But a large portion of riders on this forum seem to suffer from peer pressure, both intended and not, to purchase the same brand that others in that group have. They go to lengths in order to find a practical reasoning for their decision, which falls flat so very often. But “because I want to be like the others” is not a reason they want to recognize or say out loud.

 Then there’s the personal experience with a brand. If you have a wheel fail on you while riding, the trust may never recover. And the distrust is definitely aimed at the brand, not the unit or even the model. The V12 fiasco surely lost a lot of Inmotion customers for life. Likewise, a good experience with a wheel can fuel a strong trust in a brand, like what happened to me. Even if two wheels were exactly the same, I’d still choose Inmotion over other brands. If for nothing else, at least to support the company I believe in and whose future wheel development I want to invest in.

2 hours ago, Vanturion said:

Vendors could choose what colors they stock based on what they think their future customers will want

I don’t know enough about the business side of being a reseller so this is all just pointless guesswork on my side. But the way I’d imagine it strongly dictates that color options would be a big hassle no matter what.

2 hours ago, Vanturion said:

Didn't know people were bottoming out their shocks.

To be precise, they only bottomed out the coil. The coil reached the end of it’s travel before any other component was there to limit the travel. And since the linkage ratio is wrong, hitting the bottom happened too easily. Due to this the actual suspension travel was about 100mm instead of the advertised 130mm. I just can’t figure out how it’s possible to mess the system up so bad. Even I could design a better suspension system!

2 hours ago, Vanturion said:

So potting aside, where would you make improvements for any meaningful weight savings?

I don’t have any information on the wheel precise enough to even guess. I also don’t have enough expertise to make educated guesses on which parts can be made lighter and in what way. It’s just that it doesn’t make sense to me that EUCs and their components are so much heavier than other vehicles for example.

2 hours ago, Vanturion said:

it looks like we both agree that Inmotion has leapt far ahead the competition with this offering.

Absolutely! And that’s definitely not the only thing we agree on. 

[skunkmonkey]

6 hours ago, Vanturion said:

I would think the decision to buy is based more on a researched assessment of features, performance, price-point, maintenance considerations, and estimated safety & reliability over any kind of brand loyalty

I'm very new to the world of EUC, but I have absolutely seen brand loyalty out the wazoo, especially if you watch a lot of the different YouTube influencers, and the comments on those videos. At first I thought like you did, and that caused me to get confused by some very contradictory statements being thrown around about some wheels, when there shouldn't be a contradictory opinion even possible since they were talking about physical aspects of the released device being present or not. It wasn't until I realized that there are very specific camps rallying around brands that things started to make sense.

There's a performance camp that shouts "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" no matter how unsafe the device is, and they will make excuses for the crashes caused by the devices having too few safety limits. There's a commuter (and some others) camp that cares more about safety and reliability than raw power, and they are a little split between brands, but they do tend to focus on one over all that tends to put more safety in their firmware, and also tends to add waterproofing where others either don't, or don't pay for the rating.

Edited September 30, 2023 by skunkmonkey

[jimjam.nyc]

Oh Gosh.. I came into this thread to read about the v14 and see what kind of input can be given for the wheel. All I see are "expert" opinions on everything but.

Anyways.... 

My thoughts on the adventure are that no matter what the focus of this wheel is. I like the direction Inmotion is going. I hope if any changes are made, they are made with common sense and not with pressure from the community. I know there are a lot of knowledgeable people in this community, but that does not always equal smart decision making.

My only real concern is, if there are any changes made due to feedback from this forum or the community at large, Please take the extra time to honestly and accurately test them and work them out.

[0000]

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I really like your idealism! But unfortunately that’s not what can be seen on this forum or our local chats

Thanks! You’re right though, just wishful thinking again. There’s a lot more people out there who are comfortable conforming to what’s popular for arbitrary reasons than independently coming to their own conclusions. For the readers I’m sure there’s a lesson to be had here about some significant event that happened in the last 3 years...^...

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

But the way I’d imagine it strongly dictates that color options would be a big hassle no matter what.

You’re right it’s way easier for vendors to just sell one color just like the Ford Model T only coming in black, but I wanted to make the case that color matters (lol) given people’s proclivity to accessorize and personalize and how Inmotion might feasibly support these options.

Besides, we now have 3 manufacturers sporting the black and orange theme so for the uninformed customer saying “I want the orange one,” this doesn’t really help differentiate between the S19, Extreme, V13, and V14 (am I missing any).

From the vendor’s point of view, let’s say they get stuck with some wheels in an unpopular color scheme that no one wants. From hardest to replace to easier to replace, it’d likely be Rim>>>linkage>>plastic shell guard (maybe depending how it’s attached)>pads.

In this case, if the manufacturer used neutral colors like black for the rim especially and linkage, theoretically a vendor could somewhat easily swap unpopular color schemes to move inventory if it came to that. Just saying.

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I just can’t figure out how it’s possible to mess the system up so bad.

I just see it as a red flag that they’re not running accurate kinematic simulations, properly chasing the design loads through all the structural components, and/or not estimating design loads and failure modes accurately to begin with. In other words, they’re coming up short on the mechanical engineering which is not a great sign for products supporting humans elevated at speed. But it’s not like there haven’t been red flags before with Begode or every other wheel manufacturer for that matter on other wheels.

That said, the Adventure is ultimately a better/improved copy of the Master design using the exact same separated suspension and battery arrangement and the Master is basically a copy of the S18 heavily redesigned for performance. So who really deserves the all the credit as these companies blatantly copy each other designs and improvements? Do we even know if key design team members or engineers aren’t being poached back and forth between each company too? Food for thought.

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The V12 fiasco surely lost a lot of Inmotion customers for life. Likewise, a good experience with a wheel can fuel a strong trust in a brand, like what happened to me. Even if two wheels were exactly the same, I’d still choose Inmotion over other brands. If for nothing else, at least to support the company I believe in and whose future wheel development I want to invest in.

For sure. I think it may be useful to compare the strengths of each company – as it stands today I see Inmotion as strong at iterative design progress, mechanical engineering, comprehensive software, ergonomics and packaging, and marketing for that matter, and Begode is strong at risk taking, pushing performance, and fast development. At the end of the day, a business is primarily a vehicle to generate profit for it’s owners – ideally we’d be fans of the individuals who made the biggest contributions in producing the products we appreciate, but that's not how things tend to shake out as it's easier to associate with the abstract entity (which business owners will always appreciate). Personally I'd rather reserve sentimentality for domestic manufacturing when deserved, but things being as they are...

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

It’s just that it doesn’t make sense to me that EUCs and their components are so much heavier than other vehicles for example.

Well I wrote that out because I’m kind of tired of reading about complaints in the weight department regarding performance suspension wheels, not to pick on anything you said specifically, just in general. IMO the best way to look at weight savings is to break the design down into all it’s major components and see where you might make material substitutions or thin the walls of existing materials to achieve meaningful weight savings.

My goal was to show if you break down all the individual components for the given/static size of major components; 12” rim, 40mm magnet electric hub motor (which has more heavy copper in the windings than a 30mm magnet motor), 32S4P battery configuration, and separated damper/shock sizes, there isn’t much left to take any meaningful amount of weight out. Plus given the attention to detail in the design of the Adventure I can say with a fair amount of confidence that the design engineers have likely considered all potential substitutions while accounting for durability and price and what they ended up with is likely already weight optimized.

It’s just the nature of the suspension design EUC, the components and sizes of the components add up over, say, an RS19 which sports a light plastic shell without suspension components and linkages and has no special accommodations for the shrink-wrapped battery packs. I even made a similar case in a previous post debating Funky before about the RS and how there’s no feasible place to make any meaningful weight savings over the original design (besides the cast aluminum pedals).

The fact is if you want this suspension configuration and performance, you’re going to end up with an 80+ lb wheel. Take the S22 for example, it looks very optimized for weight and was able to come in a little lighter at 77 lbs without the vertical dampers using a bearing cage/slider arrangement, but that design has it’s own maintenance issues if I’m not mistaken. I’m sure if Kingsong made their version of the Master/Adventure separated suspension design, their wheel would also end up over 80 lbs.

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Absolutely! And that’s definitely not the only thing we agree on. 

 

[mrelwood]

6 hours ago, Vanturion said:

There’s a lot more people out there who are comfortable conforming to what’s popular for arbitrary reasons than independently coming to their own conclusions.

Comfortable, I’d imagine from being easier. There are a lot of aspects to consider when choosing a wheel, and most don’t follow all the discussions as much as we do. Finding out all the relevant information would be a lot of work, and might require considering aspects that are alien to them. Choosing what others have already chosen gives assurance that several people have already gone through the validation process and ended up with the same one. Which is of course a faulty approach, but one that can be seen in pretty much all consumer areas.

6 hours ago, Vanturion said:

I wanted to make the case that color matters

It absolutely does, and Inmotion’s orange has been a bit of a bold move in itself ever since the V12 HT. The two points of view, consumer’s and the distribution chain’s, are of course completely different. The distribution chain will try to provide if they think that it’s monetarily feasible, but what would be best for the consumer often isn’t.

I brought up these two separate povs because on the subject of color you talked from the customer’s pov, but in the matter of weight savings you took the manufacturer’s pov. 

6 hours ago, Vanturion said:

this doesn’t really help differentiate between the S19, Extreme, V13, and V14 (am I missing any).

V11Y:

 That was said to be the final factory production state of the wheel. I might’ve gone a different route as a visual designer…

But if Inmotion would’ve chosen any other color way for the Adventure, others would’ve followed suit anyway.

 What could’ve worked here is using a color only in parts that are easily replaceable, and only sell the parts separately in different colors. Other colors would then cost a little extra, but at least we’d have the choice.

6 hours ago, Vanturion said:

In other words, they’re (Begode) coming up short on the mechanical engineering which is not a great sign for products supporting humans elevated at speed.

What worries me the most is that this is the manufacturer that also makes the high voltage controller and the firmware to keep us upright. Are they using similar error checking and bubble gum repair processes there? Probably yes. Yet people trust that process enough to pass 90km/h with it. That’s just lunatic.

 Sure, red flags can be found on all manufacturers, and surely even more if we’d know more, but I don’t see them comparable at all between the manufacturers. Their processes are just so much apart.

6 hours ago, Vanturion said:

So who really deserves the all the credit as these companies blatantly copy each other designs and improvements?

I see the overall format in the wheels’ structure more as a trend than a design copy. Inmotion (and KS) came up with suspension, a year later no-one designs non-suspension wheels anymore. Etc. No need to swap in the same designer, Chinese are good enough already at taking the necessary elements to their own next design…

6 hours ago, Vanturion said:

tired of reading about complaints in the weight department regarding performance suspension wheels

Taking the customer’s pov here, it clearly is an issue then. Most riders don’t need a “performance” wheel, but that’s all they are making now. Except for KS.

A 2400Wh V11 with it’s current 8kg motor would weigh 30.5kg. 9kg’s worth of additional performance is a lot on a wheel that is already sufficient for most riders.

 But I get that you didn’t want to go there here (as well). Sorry.

 

6 hours ago, Vanturion said:

IMO the best way to look at weight savings is to break the design down into all it’s major components and see where you might make material substitutions or thin the walls of existing materials to achieve meaningful weight savings.

And that’s exactly what the design engineers exist and have been educated for. I’m pretty good at telling you how a song could’ve been mixed, recorded or played better, but as a mechanical engineer my suggestions wouldn’t be worth anything at all…

[mtl]

14 hours ago, Vanturion said:

Besides, we now have 3 manufacturers sporting the black and orange theme so for the uninformed customer saying “I want the orange one,” this doesn’t really help differentiate between the S19, Extreme, V13, and V14 (am I missing any)

Also the KingSong S16 and the blatant rip-off of Inmotion’s “signature” color scheme that is the S9.

ewheels is hoping to offer black panels to replace the default orange ones on the V14, though I agree it would be give a lot more flexibility for personalization if the rim and linkage assembly were a more neutral color.

Edited October 1, 2023 by mtl

[0000]

19 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I brought up these two separate povs because on the subject of color you talked from the customer’s pov, but in the matter of weight savings you took the manufacturer’s pov. 

Wha? I think I addressed some of those concerns from the manufacturing POV though too – it would require no tooling changes for them to select neutral colors for anodizing the rim and linkage in lieu of orange. I just honestly don’t know much about injection molding plastic and what’s entailed in producing different colors on existing tooling. I want assume not much to produce different batches of colored plastic parts, but without being paid, I can’t be bothered to look it up.

19 hours ago, mrelwood said:

That was said to be the final factory production state of the wheel. I might’ve gone a different route as a visual designer…

Huh, V11Y and @mtl shoeing in the S9 too - it's a veritable orange and black invasion. I dunno, it looks alright with the bumper accents and striping - but yeah, again color options would be nice.

19 hours ago, mrelwood said:

What worries me the most is that this is the manufacturer that also makes the high voltage controller and the firmware to keep us upright. Are they using similar error checking and bubble gum repair processes there? Probably yes. Yet people trust that process enough to pass 90km/h with it. That’s just lunatic.

Yeah, and what always gets me is people who regularly ride in traffic. Failure modes matter when you’re being followed by 2+ ton vehicles. EUC /= motorcycle. I'm sure I'll keep harping on that every now and again as long as I'm an active member here.

19 hours ago, mrelwood said:

But I get that you didn’t want to go there here (as well). Sorry.

No it’s fine, I just wanted to make a case to try and put the issue to bed. For those who want all the features these suspension wheel entail, but don’t like the weight – they should look at all the components and propose where they would feasibly remove weight IMO. Just Do It /Shia

19 hours ago, mrelwood said:

And that’s exactly what the design engineers exist and have been educated for. I’m pretty good at telling you how a song could’ve been mixed, recorded or played better, but as a mechanical engineer my suggestions wouldn’t be worth anything at all…

Which is pretty much why I shared my feedback above.

[Zalagator]

I'm pretty excited to see how the final v14 turns out. If Inmotion nails this one it looks to be the king of trail wheels, which is something that I've been looking to add to my stable. The biggest benefit I picked up on is the fairly large battery for the size, every other trail wheel has a much smaller battery, which kills their usability for heavier riders. I'm eagerly awaiting opinions of those playing with the test units, Inmotion seems to be heading in the right direction with this one.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Zalagator said:

every other trail wheel has a much smaller battery

Not sure what you are comparing the Adventure to. But Adventure: 2400Wh. Extreme: 2400Wh. S22: 2220Wh. Patton: 2200Wh.

I wouldn’t exactly call the others “much smaller”.

[bpong]

when 'actual' comprehensive rider reviews start popping up a la youtube,  then the euc community will have some proven facts and opinions to absorb.  this topic is nothing more than drumming up online business.  its good business practice but i wont be putting down my cash at a LOCAL retailer till i see the product and hopefully get a chance to ride one (carefully).  euc forum of late has a lot of V14 postings ranging from repeat information,  off topics including models from other manufacturers,  and now live Q&A's on a model that barely has any social media exposure other than what inmotion posts along a few lucky few riders that got testers.

i am greatly interested in the V14 with all the stated features.  not too worried about choice of battery considering i dont ride like a demon out of hell,  nor am i trying to break the sound barrier or want to charge my ride at 1000000000C.  im just want to pick up my new spanking shiny powerful modern suspension wheel !!!

good luck with the online kiss and cuddle session,  i am sure it will be interesting.  but not as interesting as seeing and experiencing the actual wheel at a dealership.

[0000]

13 minutes ago, bpong said:

when 'actual' comprehensive rider reviews start popping up a la youtube,  then the euc community will have some proven facts and opinions to absorb

You're right, there's absolutely nothing to talk about here and we're only allowed to discuss interesting upcoming design details and features only when Youtube personalities get ahold of the wheels to shower us with their entertaining pontifications. I mean, this whole discussion thing and trading ideas is totally stupid am I right? It's not like any of the prior discussion helped bring attention to a battery spec mismatch that could've led to some unhappy customers and potentially costly repairs downstream.

15 minutes ago, bpong said:

good luck with the online kiss and cuddle session

Thanks Cletus, be sure to knock another one back for us

[mrelwood]

6 hours ago, bpong said:

this topic is nothing more than drumming up online business. 

Besides the crucial points made by @Vanturion above, you’re forgetting a very basic human phenomena. We need to be able to categorize everything we see, hear or read about. To help that, we need to analyze the Adventure from the tiny bits of information we have thus far. That way we can determine whether it is crap or gold. That decision doesn’t even need facts, rumors and prejudice do just fine, as long as we have something to work on. Actually, rumors aren’t necessary either, prejudice alone does just fine also. (Like some people have against Begode…) But most of us do thirst for as much info as possible to make the best possible judgement, and many kind souls around here are kind enough to even help others make this decision as well. But a judgement must be made, that’s just how we are.

[OldSolo]

Y'all are too young, but those of my generation know the best way to evaluate an as-of-yet unreleased product:

The Magic 8 Ball knows all, tells all

[Punxatawneyjoe]

15 minutes ago, OldSolo said:

Y'all are too young,

I think you would be very surprised to find out most people on here are over 45 and a good sum are over 65. You have to remember, these EUC's are big boy toys with a hefty price tag in some cases. In any event, i remember the magic 8 ball with the multi sided dice with writing on it inside and the blackish liquid. And to stay on topic, i am going to put a deposit down on the adventure. I feel it will live up to the hype and i would like to keep my 13 as my street wheel.  Even though i don't really care for the Begode copy design, i feel it will have better performance off road than most wheels. And i like to do mostly off road stuff.

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I think you would be very surprised to find out most people on here are over 45 and a good sum are over 65. You have to remember, these EUC's are big boy toys with a hefty price tag in some cases. In any event, i remember the magic 8 ball with the multi sided dice with writing on it inside and the blackish liquid. And to stay on topic, i am going to put a deposit down on the adventure. I feel it will live up to the hype and i would like to keep my 13 as my street wheel.  Even though i don't really care for the Begode copy design, i feel it will have better performance off road than most wheels. And i like to do mostly off road stuff.

I think it is more like the old folks needed to do something to make themselves feel young again. The young ones know better, and stay away.

Congrats, your stable will soon be able to be deemed an official showroom for Inmotion electric wheels. After collection the V14, you only need the V12.  

[Punxatawneyjoe]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

deemed an official showroom for Inmotion electric wheels

Haha, True. I would say I'm as bad as a Begode fan boy, but i don't want to talk crazy...

Let's just say i haven't been easy on my wheels and Inmotion wheels have stood up to the abuse amazingly well.

[bpong]

On 10/5/2023 at 8:52 PM, Vanturion said:

You're right, there's absolutely nothing to talk about here and we're only allowed to discuss interesting upcoming design details and features only when Youtube personalities get ahold of the wheels to shower us with their entertaining pontifications. I mean, this whole discussion thing and trading ideas is totally stupid am I right? It's not like any of the prior discussion helped bring attention to a battery spec mismatch that could've led to some unhappy customers and potentially costly repairs downstream.

Thanks Cletus, be sure to knock another one back for us

Spuckler is an easy going character, ... like i said before "kisses and cuddles".  keep feeding the speculation machine.  we will have to agree to disagree ... cheers !!!