What are your thoughts on the Adventure?

[mrelwood]

23 hours ago, techyiam said:

From reading posts from this forum site, and on Facebook

… you get a highly skewed view on what kinds of EUC riders there exist as a whole. Take the V11 for example again. A near top seller even with the US sellers that list top sellers in the first place. Shouldn’t there be a whole lot of postings on the V11, it’s capabilities and shortcomings? Well, there are only a few here and there. Why is that? Because this is an enthusiast forum, just like all platforms that discuss EUCs. The ones that just use their V8s and V11s for daily commuting, errands and such aren’t necessarily enthusiast and are not interested in discussing their wheels online.

 Are there many Toyota Corolla forums online? There should be based on the sales. Or milk forums, since it sells even more.

23 hours ago, techyiam said:

45 mph top speed isn't that high.

For a self balancing single wheeled vehicle made in China that just a few years ago could only reach common bicycle speeds, it’s a mentally fast speed.

23 hours ago, techyiam said:

Bottom line is, if faster wheels don't sell, manufacturers won't make them.

Manufacturers’ offerings aren’t a good representation of what sells. If the second best selling wheel is a modest mid class wheel, one should expect the mid class to be represented by the manufacturers’ offerings nearly as widely as the top of the line models. And remember the EUCW stats from last year? Top two were S18 and V11. Yet there haven’t been a single new wheel in that whole market sector since 2020. KingSong is now finally kind of trying to fill in that gap, but it remains to be seen how well they succeed since they have trouble reaching the mid weight group.

23 hours ago, techyiam said:

My guess is that there will be new wheels coming out next year that will have a top speed of no less than 80 mph.

I don’t know what you’re smoking, but I don’t want anything to do with it.

From 60 to 80 mph would require a 78% increase in output power alone (if I calculated correctly). The V13 top speeds are already something that only a few are interested in trying. And those who do mostly just do it once and then stay with more relaxed speeds. It would be a near death of an EUC company to waste resources and time from competing to make a wheel for just a tiny handful of riders. Even the V8 without suspension sells more than the V13. Even today.

 And that was just about the speed. To make a wheel that’s stable enough and doesn’t completely disintegrate in a crash at those speeds would make it heavy enough that the power increase would probably have to be around the 100% mark. And it would be stupidly expensive, limiting the customerbase even further.

Then there are the EU restrictions coming up next year that require an insurance for all wheels faster than 25km/h. Which still doesn’t make them road legal though. EU is still a significant section of EUC sales, and this new restriction will absolutely increase the sales of sub 25km/h wheels. As long as there are any to sell. The manufacturers know this very well, and they are worried about what will happen.

This is definitely not the time to develop 80mph wheels. They have just been trying to +1 each other and show what they are capable of. Now that that’s done, it’s time to concentrate on a sensible model portfolio for all market sectors.

[Eucner]

23 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

From 60 to 80 mph would require a 78% increase in output power alone (if I calculated correctly).

The 78% increase applies to drag force. Output power need is 137% higher.

[techyiam]

Aerodynamic Drag Force is proportional to velocity^2

Power to overcome Aerodynamic Drag is proportional to velocity ^3

since P = F * v

[techyiam]

36 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

you get a highly skewed view on what kinds of EUC riders there exist as a whole. Take the V11 for example again. A near top seller even with the US sellers that list top sellers in the first place. Shouldn’t there be a whole lot of postings on the V11, it’s capabilities and shortcomings? Well, there are only a few here and there.

Actually, the V11 is a good counter example to the point you are making.

On YouTube, if you do a search for a specific wheel, and then sort by upload date, you will see that the V11 is a very active topic. 

The V12 is very active also. Ditto on Facebook.

Wheels such as the Begode T3 is basically dead.

Even the S18 is not that active.

Maybe on this forum website the V11 is not that active, but on the other social media platforms, it is very much talked about.

Fast wheels are hot topics too.

47 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

For a self balancing single wheeled vehicle made in China that just a few years ago could only reach common bicycle speeds, it’s a mentally fast speed.

Perhaps. It depends on the individual rider and how capable the wheel is, and where and how one rides it. On the right wheel, 45 mph is fast for current euc standard for many riders, but with all the risks mitigated, it can be managed. People do the same on motorcycles, except at much, much higher speeds. It can be done within acceptable risks if one knows how.

56 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Manufacturers’ offerings aren’t a good representation of what sells. If the second best selling wheel is a modest mid class wheel, one should expect the mid class to be represented by the manufacturers’ offerings nearly as widely as the top of the line models. And remember the EUCW stats from last year? Top two were S18 and V11. Yet there haven’t been a single new wheel in that whole market sector since 2020. KingSong is now finally kind of trying to fill in that gap, but it remains to be seen how well they succeed since they have trouble reaching the mid weight group.

Inmotion came out with the V11, then the V12, and both became best sellers, and they still are. It appears, the S18 was losing sales to the V11, so Kingsong counters with the S16. But Inmotion would like to keeps its crown, so they are coming out the V11Y.

However, there are other electric wheel market segments that can be profitable, even if they don't sell as many. These more premium wheels cost more, and are more capable. Leaper Kim caters to this market segment and appears to be doing well. So what do you think the other manufacturers going to do. If there is profit to be made, they are going to go after that market segment. Kingsong is rumoured to be coming out with an all new bigger, heavier, and faster wheel.

And the S16 and S19 development cost most likely will not be as high as the development cost for the F-Series wheel, me thinks.

For businesses, profits is the driving force. For money invested, people expects reasonable returns for their investment.

Begode has recently came out with the mten4, and A2. Do you think the development costs of these two wheels surpassed the development cost of the Hero, EX20S, Master, EX30, and Extreme, and up and coming Extreme 30. If profits from sales aren't there, how does Begode justifies going down this route.

The same thing can be said about Inmotion's V13 and Adventure (vs V11Y), and Kingsong F-Series (vs S19, S16).

Action speaks louder than words.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I don’t know what you’re smoking, but I don’t want anything to do with it.

From 60 to 80 mph would require a 78% increase in output power alone (if I calculated correctly). The V13 top speeds are already something that only a few are interested in trying. And those who do mostly just do it once and then stay with more relaxed speeds. It would be a near death of an EUC company to waste resources and time from competing to make a wheel for just a tiny handful of riders. Even the V8 without suspension sells more than the V13. Even today.

We already had this discussion before in the V13 thread sometimes back And what I said was that we have to wait and see how the euc community is going react to the faster wheels.

And what do you know. Plenty of riders bought the Master despite of the many issues. Who knew, there were that many of riders who want quick and fast wheels, especially in the US.

Apparently, at least in the US, there are riders who commutes along roadways in car traffic. And there are riders who go on group rides that don't do slow. In the former group, if you don't go fast, you can't keep up with traffic. And in the latter group, if you don't have a fast enough wheel, you get left behind.

Then came the Master Pro and V13. Apparently, people wanted even faster wheels.

Next came the EX30. And people upgraded to the EX30, as well as to the V13, Master Pro, etc.

Even the Patton can do 50 mph. So can the Commander Mini, Commander Pro, etc. We don't hear much of Sherman's and EX.N's anymore. They just don't have the capability to do the high speeds, nor the suspension to deal with the road imperfections at those high speeds.

There are people who are concerned that the Extreme can't do 50 mph. Imagine that.

From what I can gather, people want faster wheel still.

Regarding crashes at 50+ mph speeds, apparently, there have been quite few already. Yet people are more than happy to ride 50+ mph.

As to the V13 being sold only to a handful of people, Inmotion is planning to build future Challenger models with more battery capacity, and with 134.4 V system. Why would they do that, if only a handful of people are going to buy them.

[mrelwood]

2 minutes ago, techyiam said:

We already had this discussion before in the V13 thread sometimes back And what I said was that we have to wait and see how the euc community is going react to the faster wheels.

And I agree with that. But since this is not a discussion between just you and me, I wanted to voice my opinion in this thread as well. As did you.

 What does the word “community” cover though? Is a lone EUC rider a part of the community if they never take part in forums and group rides?

 

2 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Apparently, at least in the US, there are riders who commutes along roadways in car traffic. And there are riders who go on group rides that don't do slow. In the former group, if you don't go fast, you can't keep up with traffic. And in the latter group, if you don't have a fast enough wheel, you get left behind.

Then came the Master Pro and V13. Apparently, people wanted even faster wheels.

Next came the EX30. And people upgraded to the EX30, as well as to the V13, Master Pro, etc.

Even the Patton can do 50 mph. So can the Commander Mini, Commander Pro, etc.

Yet they buy V11s. Why is that?

The V8 commuters I was describing, they don’t voice their wishes or concerns in any way. They just buy what’s available if it fits them. And the V8 and V11 apparently do.

 

2 minutes ago, techyiam said:

From what I can gather, people want faster wheel still.

Of course there are people who will always want faster no matter if the V99 would do 500mph. But like I pointed out, we’re all in a huge echo chamber here. Me included. I just go by the fact that V11 sells so well there. Unless one works for a distributor that sells als kinds of wheels, one has no idea how much each wheel sells. And even then they only have data for their specific area and client base. Amazon is also a good source to check for wheel sales. There are barely any large-heavy-fast wheels.

 

2 minutes ago, techyiam said:

As to the V13 being sold only to a handful of people, Inmotion is planning to build future Challenger models with more battery capacity, and with 134.4 V system. Why would they do that, if only a handful of people are going to buy them.

Like I said, +1. They are also planning on upgrading the V5 and V8 series. Why is that?

 I’ve never said that people wouldn’t want fast wheels. It’s obvious that humans do. The point was that there’s a bell curve of the speeds that people ride at. 55mph is at the very edge, and doesn’t include many people. The majority rides much slower than that. Hence the majority of wheels should be targeted to the majority of people. The manufacturers’ offerings just haven’t stabilized to that point yet.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

We already had this discussion before in the V13 thread sometimes back And what I said was that we have to wait and see how the euc community is going react to the faster wheels.

And I agree with that. But since this is not a discussion between just you and me, I wanted to voice my opinion in this thread as well. As did you.

 What does the word “community” cover though? Is a lone EUC rider a part of the community if they never take part in forums and group rides?

The pulse of the EUC community was guaged basically via this forum, Youtube, and Facebook, and the local folks that I see and meet up. From around here, and what I heard online, many are buying the fast wheels.

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Yet they buy V11s. Why is that?

No one is saying everybody is going to buy fast wheels, and go 50+ mph.

Since the V11 and the V12 are, and have been best sellers, they represent the largest market segment. So plenty of people are buying them. However, there is also money to be made in the more premium fast wheel segment. Leaper Kim seemed to be leading the way here.

Noticed that Inmotion didn't have to lower the V11 price nor release a newer V11, V12 earlier, yet they remain best sellers. The V11 was just recently heavily discounted, and a V11Y is about to be launched since the S16 is about to show up.

Back about a couple of years, Inmotion decided to make a modest initial attempt with the V12, and then followed by the V13 to join the fray. Now, even Kingsong may have an iron in the fire in the not too distant future with the rumoured F-Series wheel.

I can see why Begode is continuing to try to steal market share from Leaper Kim, due to bad blood. But for both Inmotion and Kingsong wanting to chase after this premium fast wheel class, it has to be related to business reasons. Notice that after the release of the V13, Sherman S, EX30, Master Pro, and Commander Pro, Inmotion still wants to release the 134.4 V Challenger; Begode, the Extreme 30; and Kingsong, the F-Series.

On top of that, there is a rumour floating around that Leaper Kim will be releasing a 126 V or higher voltage Sherman S. So surely, Begode, Inmotion, and Kingsong will have to respond in order to maximize their shares in this market segment.

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by techyiam

[Unventor]

7 hours ago, techyiam said:

If profits from sales aren't there, how does Begode justifies going down this route

Good question. Still someone can make arguments from their point of view or one could lift ones eyes just a bit and look at what could fill a specific target user group. 

Like any other product brands often set their main focus on a few users a few have the resources to have a full product lineup. 

Now just as much you argue for GW spin off brand just as much I would never touch such a wheel with a fireblanket. 

The trend right now is a fight for flagship wheels. But that will end eventually and then we will see someone will make wheels that appeal for volume sales. 

There is a reason why V8 was popular. Also the KS18L/XL. They were not best at anything but they were a balanced product that appeal to many. 

At this point is where the V11 and S18 got a lot of talk. Being first out with suspension. The S18 might be good or not, but I know why I chose the V11. It seems from the talk later down the line I were not all wrong that the V11 was a more functional wheel (overall) dispite people agrue that S18 should be better. 

There is a very big difference between better and good enough. And same goes for speed or range. Once the price tag is linked in the the choice often will fall for good enough. 

This is party why supercars are not family cars. So looking how different regions apply traffic laws and how much space there is in the traffic, this will colour the market 8f future EUCs. 

One might want a super car but for many this will cost a lot and they are often coming with downsides to practical daily use. 

Now this forum is where many that embraced EUCs early on got started to share a commen interest. One will see a lot of people are passive readers some post occasionally but a few are very frequent and loud. Same goes for influencer and you tubers. To get clicks and make money they need to stand out. So IMHO they cannot be used as references for all users. 

That is why I posted my comment yesterday. One can agree or not with this. But in time people will vote with their valley and next purchase or absence of purchase. 

I still think that Toyota is a safer bet for long term profit than Corvette or Lamborghini. It is down to model program number of sales. With this in mind I am sure same thing will show on EUC sales too. 

[techyiam]

8 hours ago, Unventor said:

17 hours ago, techyiam said:

If profits from sales aren't there, how does Begode justifies going down this route

Good question. Still someone can make arguments from their point of view or one could lift ones eyes just a bit and look at what could fill a specific target user group.

Strawman much? ... or plainly, gibberish.  

8 hours ago, Unventor said:

Like any other product brands often set their main focus on a few users a few have the resources to have a full product lineup. 

It's not complicated. Many car models don't sell better than the Corolla or Camry, for example. Does that mean no body else should make cars, (although to be more current, we need to talk about SUV's).

Businesses exist to make profits.

If there is profit to be made, someone may be able to make a business case for it.

Leaper Kim started small with very little resources (from scratch, with no branding). I surmised this from the fact that they only have one model, the OG Sherman. And they got a loan from ewheels.com.

However, they obviously had a business plan, and was able to convince others to invest in them. I doubt Jason would get on board to intentionally lose money on his investment.

And guess what, the OG Sherman eventually became profitable, even though the OG Sherman was a big, heavy, and fast wheel for its day. No, it wasn't the best selling electric wheel. But this model allow Leaper Kim to stay in business and grow. Now, this success story did not go unnoticed. So what do you expect Begode, Inmotion, and Kingsong were going to do. Yup, they didn't just sit idly by.

Going back to Begode and sales, I believe that the fine folks in SoCal bought a whole bunch of EX30's. So did a bunch of riders locally. Ditto, in NYC, and Toronto. Also, before that, the Master sold well. There are many riders who like performance wheels. RS-19's and EX.N's were popular performance wheels. According to Rev-Rides, many Begode wheels were sold in California. Also, at Alienrides.com, many of the models they carry are Begode wheels. They don't even carry the V11. And their top 3 selling wheels are Begode wheels, followed by the S22 then the V12 (HS), V13, EX30, and Master Pro.

8 hours ago, Unventor said:

There is a very big difference between better and good enough. And same goes for speed or range. Once the price tag is linked in the the choice often will fall for good enough. 

This is party why supercars are not family cars. So looking how different regions apply traffic laws and how much space there is in the traffic, this will colour the market 8f future EUCs. 

One might want a super car but for many this will cost a lot and they are often coming with downsides to practical daily use. 

Now this forum is where many that embraced EUCs early on got started to share a commen interest. One will see a lot of people are passive readers some post occasionally but a few are very frequent and loud. Same goes for influencer and you tubers. To get clicks and make money they need to stand out. So IMHO they cannot be used as references for all users. 

That is why I posted my comment yesterday. One can agree or not with this. But in time people will vote with their valley and next purchase or absence of purchase. 

I still think that Toyota is a safer bet for long term profit than Corvette or Lamborghini. It is down to model program number of sales. With this in mind I am sure same thing will show on EUC sales too. 

Even though the V11 and V12 may be the best sellers, the manufacturers are not fighting aggressively for market share directly in this segment? Instead, they pour almost all their resources on performance wheels.

Can it be that Leaper Kim found themselves a profitable market segment in the electric wheel market? Which is the performance segment.

After Kingsong released the S18, Kingsong did not follow up with an upgraded S18 model, nor an S16, S19. Instead they took a different route. They came out with a model with higher spec's and performance than the V11, V12 models: the S20 (later renamed S22). Despite all the issues, the S22 did sell. Actually, at Alienrides, the S22/Pro sold better than the V12. Alienrides.com doesn't carry the V11 nor the S18. At Eevees currently, the S22/Pro is their best seller, not the V11 nor the V12.

Begode decided to join the 20", 4P battery wheel party. The came out with the Hero first, which was an instant flop. Which they prompt corrected with the Master. I think Begode learned a hard lesson with the Hero. It is much easier to sell wheels at higher prices, if accompanied with proportionately more performance and higher spec's.

Performance wheels may not be the best sellers. But they do sell well enough. Perhaps the profit margins are higher, so that not as many units need to be sold in order to make the same amount of profit. Based on where the manufacturers are spending their development dollars, I would deduced that there is more profit to be made in the performance market segment.

I predict in the coming new year, for new wheel releases, there will be more performance models than the models in the V11, V12 class. And the trend will continue.

Now, not everyone wants to ride a performance wheel. And there are plenty of models to choose from. Until the V11Y and the S16 arrive, you just have to stick with older tech.

[stizl]

The old auto and moto manufacturers’ “win on Sunday, sell on Monday” marketing strategy involved prioritizing reputation and brand identity synonymous with performance over profits for some models.  

For example, Dodge never intended to turn a profit on the Viper…they barely even planned to manufacture enough of them to make up for their R&D and tooling costs. The Viper did, however, get Dodge loads of positive press and help associate Dodge with performance and help sell other more affordable sporty cars for mortals. 

The same goes for Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki…they sell loads more tiny dual sport bikes than they do flagship sportbikes, at least in most of the world, but many more people know what a Hayabusa is and what it can do than people that bought them. 

Judging by their product lineup, Leaperkim and Begode obviously aren’t following this approach, but KingSong and Inmotion (with their wider selection of smaller models) may benefit from having a kickass flagship wheel with small profit margins to push sales down their lineups. 

[techyiam]

33 minutes ago, stizl said:

Judging by their product lineup, Leaperkim and Begode obviously aren’t following this approach, but KingSong and Inmotion (with their wider selection of smaller models) may benefit from having a kickass flagship wheel with small profit margins to push sales down their lineups. 

Maybe others do, but I don't see how the V13 would help V11 or V12 sales for example.

I tend to look at each wheel separately based on what owners say about it. I find that flagship models does nothing to influence my purchase decision.  A test ride could my mind though. Overnight, from almost pulling the trigger on the Commander Mini, to off the table.

I have ridden the V13, and I own a V12. They are so different. I don't see how the V13 in any way would help sales of the smaller Inmotion wheels.

Regarding Kingsong, you would think with the bad reputation garnered by their flagship S22, Kingsong would be out of business now.

But that didn't happened. People still like the 16X, 18 XL, S18 etc., despite the S22 fiasco.

If I decide to buy the Adventure, the V13 would have no part in it.

Also, at eevees, or alien rides, I don't see the improvement in the sales of Imotion wheels since the start of V13 sales.

[stizl]

4 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Maybe others do, but I don't see how the V13 would help V11 or V12 sales for example.

I tend to look at each wheel separately based on what owners say about it. I find that flagship models does nothing to influence my purchase decision.  A test ride could my mind though. Overnight, from almost pulling the trigger on the Commander Mini, to off the table.

I have ridden the V13, and I own a V12. They are so different. I don't see how the V13 in any way would help sales of the smaller Inmotion wheels.

Regarding Kingsong, you would think with the bad reputation garnered by their flagship S22, Kingsong would be out of business now.

But that didn't happened. People still like the 16X, 18 XL, S18 etc., despite the S22 fiasco.

If I decide to buy the Adventure, the V13 would have no part in it.

Also, at eevees, or alien rides, I don't see the improvement in the sales of Imotion wheels since the start of V13 sales.

I am like you on this, as in the flagship has no influence in my selection of a different class of wheel from the same manufacturer. Still, the companies that have been using that approach for decades now probably only kept doing so because it was financially justified. 

There are a few known exceptions. Henry Ford III (I think) only authorized the GT40 to be made and raced at LeMans because he was pissed that Ferrari wouldn't sell out to Ford. 

Coming at the topic from the other perspective, I am interested in the Adventure and would have confidence in buying it because I’ve had such a positive experience with my V12. Given Inmotion’s reputation for quality vs Begode’s, if they sold me a V14 then they’d keep another customer brand-loyal without risking them jumping to a comparable wheel from another manufacturer (ex: Bogode Extreme) and switching loyalties, even if they don’t make a huge profit on that one sale. 
 

In my case at least, too bad Leaperkim beat them to market with the Patton. 

[stizl]

On topic here, check out the title ow WW’s v13 review 

“InMotion V13 Complete Review - Most Overengineered Wheel for Smallest Group of Riders”

 

[Punxatawneyjoe]

30 minutes ago, stizl said:

On topic here, check out the title ow WW’s v13 review

WW is a bozo and has had a problem with inmotion since they got into a little tiff a year or so ago. I used to watch his reviews until he turned into a little wine bag.

he still doesn't know the battery is IPx7 after all this time. you can tell he's a tool because he downs potted batteries for "serviceability"...

[skunkmonkey]

As a casual commuter, and a new EUC rider my thoughts on the Adventure are that I really like the direction that InMotion is going. Making wheels with more waterproofing, easier maintenance, more safety, and more reliability. The price tag will likely be too rich for me, but the Adventure isn't targeting commuters.

Edited September 20, 2023 by skunkmonkey

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, stizl said:

I am like you on this, as in the flagship has no influence in my selection of a different class of wheel from the same manufacturer. Still, the companies that have been using that approach for decades now probably only kept doing so because it was financially justified.

I think in the EUC world, the situation is a little different. All manufacturers, mainly Begode, Veteran, Inmotion, KIngsong, they all are pouring developing dollars primarily on their performance wheels. Begode may have sneaked in an mten4, and an A2, and Inmotion the V11Y and KIngsong, the S19, and S16. This is done to their main production models. Not some limited special order model like the 134 V RS19. Veteran is a special case, since that is all they make.

[novazeus]

i appreciate the v14 anticipation because i have another v13 coming from inmotion monday with the stock knobby and kickstand on sale for $3420. my street tire one has 1500 miles on it so i know it's proven. this new one is gonna be strictly a pasture wheel for surveillance and a much softer place for me and the wheel to land while i work on my skills. excited to see what this big knobby feels like.

so, at $3299, seems high to me compared to $3420 for a v13. i know the v13 is no torque monster, but if that little tire gets stuck, ur still gonna faceplant. and the big wheel just looks better to me. i plan on removing the trolley handle completely, unless the bracket adds some torsional stability? course covering in yoga mat but might  play with the pads on this raw land.

 

[stizl]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

I think in the EUC world, the situation is a little different. All manufacturers, mainly Begode, Veteran, Inmotion, KIngsong, they all are pouring developing dollars primarily on their performance wheels. Begode may have sneaked in an mten4, and an A2, and Inmotion the V11Y and KIngsong, the S19, and S16. This is done to their main production models. Not some limited special order model like the 134 V RS19. Veteran is a special case, since that is all they make.

Agreed, and you have good points…these aren’t one-off or special edition models, but this may also support my subsequent point about brand-loyalty as justification for showing up late to the party with a comparable model or an incremental one-up. 

[techyiam]

12 hours ago, stizl said:

but this may also support my subsequent point about brand-loyalty as justification for showing up late to the party with a comparable model or an incremental one-up.

The way I see it is that there are three dominant market segments in the electric wheels market right now:

(1) V11, V12 class: This class probably is responsible for the largest volume of sales in a single class.

(2) 2220Wh / 2400Wh 4P-battery class: Wheels include the Master, S22/Pro, Patton, Commander MinI, Commander GT, Extreme, Adventure, etc.

(3) 3600 Wh 20" Class: Wheels such as the Sherman S, EX30, Commander Pro, Extreme 30, Challenger 20", etc. 

I see the last two market segments as very important segments that shouldn't be taken lightly. IMO, having "an iron in the fire" in the 2nd Class should be motivated by more than just "so existing customers can stay loyal". Personally, I think Inmotion is taking the Adventure model line very seriously, based on the road map Bob Yan presented, and the information released at launch. 

I think manufacturers need to have "an iron in the fire" in the very important market segment categories. And the wheel a manufacturer designed should be able to complete favourably in the eyes of potential customers, and their existing customers. However, if a manufacturer's wheel cannot compete well enough in a class, it may need to improve sale competitiveness by selling it for less. I think Begode is an example of this. However, it looks like Begode is stepping up and changing its business model.

My perspective on brand loyalty is that a manufacturer ideally wants potential buyers to start at their entry level models. And to have them continue to move up their product lines as the customers' needs grow. It's kind of like Civic, Accord, Acura, or Corolla, Camry, Lexus. In the car business, for an example, young drivers may start out being single and then get marry, and later start a family. So there could be a progression of purchases of vehicles.

 

I myself is loyal to good build quality, good ride quality, good suspension, good performance, good reliability, good waterproofing, and competitive pricing.  

 

17 hours ago, stizl said:

Coming at the topic from the other perspective, I am interested in the Adventure and would have confidence in buying it because I’ve had such a positive experience with my V12. Given Inmotion’s reputation for quality vs Begode’s, if they sold me a V14 then they’d keep another customer brand-loyal without risking them jumping to a comparable wheel from another manufacturer (ex: Bogode Extreme) and switching loyalties, even if they don’t make a huge profit on that one sale. 

Kingsong started this class with the S20. Begode responded with the Master. Leaper Kim swapped the 20" for a 16" and released the Patton.

Inmotion was daydreaming. And that was that. (However, by the looks of it so far, the Adventure seemed well thought out, and well featured.) 

I guess fate has it that the Adventure was not to be, for you.   

Edited September 21, 2023 by techyiam

[stizl]

34 minutes ago, techyiam said:

The way I see it is that there are three dominant market segments in the electric wheels market right now:

(1) V11, V12 class: This class probably is responsible for the largest volume of sales in a single class.

(2) 2220Wh / 2400Wh 4P-battery class: Wheels include the Master, S22/Pro, Patton, Commander MinI, Commander GT, Extreme, Adventure, etc.

(3) 3600 Wh 20" Class: Wheels such as the Sherman S, EX30, Commander Pro, Extreme 30, Challenger 20", etc. 

I see the last two market segments as very important segments that shouldn't be taken lightly. IMO, having "an iron in the fire" in the 2nd Class should be motivated by more than just "so existing customers can stay loyal". Personally, I think Inmotion is taking the Adventure model line very seriously, based on the road map Bob Yan presented, and the information released at launch. 

Manufacturers need to have "an iron in the fire" in very important market segments. And the wheel a manufacturer designed should be able to complete favourably in the eyes of potential customers, and their existing customers. However, if a manufacturer's wheel cannot compete well enough in a class, it may need to improve sale competitiveness by selling it for less. I think Begode is an example of this. However, it looks like Begode is stepping up and changing its business model.

My perspective on brand loyalty is that a manufacturer ideally wants potential buyers to start at their entry level models. And to have them continue to move up their product lines as the customers' needs grow. It's kind of like Civic, Accord, Acura, or Corolla, Camry, Lexus. In the car business, for an example, young drivers may start out being single and then get marry, and later start a family. So there could be a progression of purchases of vehicles.

 

I myself is loyal to good build quality, good ride quality, good suspension, good performance, good reliability, good waterproofing, and competitive pricing.  

 

Kingsong started this class with the S20. Begode responded with the Master. Leaper Kim swapped the 20" for a 16" and released the Patton.

Inmotion was daydreaming. And that was that. (However, by the looks of it so far, the Adventure seemed well thought out, and well featured.) 

I guess fate has it that the Adventure was not to be, for you.   

Your dominant wheel classes make sense to me, as does the importance of having “iron in the fire” in each major segment. 
 

I'm totally happy with my Patton, but can potentially see myself next year getting a 20” Adventure-Y for the trails, selling the V12 (my current street wheel), and throwing a street tire on the Patton.  

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, stizl said:

I'm totally happy with my Patton, but can potentially see myself next year getting a 20” Adventure-Y for the trails, selling the V12 (my current street wheel), and throwing a street tire on the Patton.  

Interesting, and exciting wheel procurement strategy going forward. If the Adventure works as advertised, you will have two killer wheels to enjoy.

Although the Kingsong F-Series wheel is interesting, but an unknown right now, it is going to be pretty hard to beat the Adventure and Patton, unless something doesn't pan out with the Adventure.

[zaft]

not to get too off topic, but the mention of going fast as 80mph is not realistic without serious aerodynamic considerations. the drag force at 60mph would be at best case maybe 50lbs of force against you and at 65mph it's 60lbs, I would imagine most couldn't withstand that for more than a moment and would be very easy to lose control... if you're more curious this pdf has some insight on aerodyamics for motorcycles (https://badcurator.org/resources/Magazines/Cycle_Sep76/Motorcycle-Aerodynamics.pdf)

[skunkmonkey]

1 hour ago, zaft said:

80mph is not realistic without serious aerodynamic considerations

I know lots of others disagree, but from a commuter standpoint I only look at top speed from a perspective of can I still do 25-30mph when sag hits. I never ride faster than that. I have family to care for. Having a higher top end for me just means that I can still do my normal commute speeds under more adverse conditions, and on lower battery.

[Planemo]

2 hours ago, skunkmonkey said:

I know lots of others disagree, but from a commuter standpoint I only look at top speed from a perspective of can I still do 25-30mph when sag hits.

Thats a fair point tbh. Thankfully we don't need anything like an 80mph wheel to do that. Dawn was getting 39mph at about 107v IIRC on her EX30. Thats pretty amazing.

[mrelwood]

On 9/21/2023 at 12:58 AM, techyiam said:

Maybe others do, but I don't see how the V13 would help V11 or V12 sales for example.

The lines between brand loyalty, fanboyism and just brand recognition are very blurred. But just my experience jumping from the MSX to the V11 showed me that the V11 was vastly better designed, better made, rides hugely better, and had numerous features the MSX didn’t have. Many of which other brands still don’t have. Looking at all wheels from this new perspective of what I like my wheel to have, limits the wheels that interest me to only Inmotion wheels. In that sense the V11 in my case has clearly brought them another sale. Others than Inmotion just don’t tick nearly enough boxes for me.

 People’s experience with a brand generally sticks very tightly. If one had a V12 from a bad batch, one might never buy an Inmotion again. Just like I wouldn’t ever buy any KingSong no matter how perfect a wheel they’d make, all because they had the audacity to do a LockSong on all their honest customers since day one.

On 9/21/2023 at 12:58 AM, techyiam said:

Also, at eevees, or alien rides, I don't see the improvement in the sales of Imotion wheels since the start of V13 sales.

Do they really share their sales numbers that precisely? And I thought  AlienRides don’t even sell the V11?

 

13 hours ago, techyiam said:

I think manufacturers need to have "an iron in the fire" in the very important market segment categories.

If the sales on their models wouldn’t affect the sales on their other models, this wouldn’t be needed. If that really were the case, the first group would sell just as well no matter if the manufacturer takes part in groups 2 or 3. But I really don’t think that’s how it goes.

Just the fact that people hear about the V13 as a well made and overengineered, stupidly fast yet reliable wheel, of course it leaves an impression that reflects to their personal image of the brand. And I believe that was partially the point of the whole V13.

13 hours ago, techyiam said:

My perspective on brand loyalty is that a manufacturer ideally wants potential buyers to start at their entry level models.

If any EUC manufacturer would have that in mind, they would at least try to compete in the “first wheel” category with the A2. Currently they don’t, and they just keep selling models designed up to 6 years ago.

 But the EUC manufacturers don’t seem to follow other basic rules of business and marketing either, so it’s very hard to predict or assess the wheel models’ success based on their actions. Again I believe this to be because of the cultural wall between western and eastern countries and their customs.