King Song S14 rumors

[meepmeepmayer]

Looks like an even smaller suspension wheel might be coming!

[meepmeepmayer]

5 hours ago, slippyfeet said:

Copying and pasting this from Dennis Hagov:

"750LBS spring to soft for me. over all wheel not bad. good price and and weight ratio. Final production wheel will be 29kg not 33kg as was announced. so seams it is like upgrade from 16x to s16. Not everybody need super powerful offroad king this is just wheel for price till 2000e. so it is not downgrade. s14 all so developing as i know."

Link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/permalink/6551675048263736/?mibextid=S66gvF

Also "F-series" high end planned.

(Denis Hagov is the eucsale guy.)

Paging @Funky, this might be the wheel for you.

Edited September 6, 2023 by meepmeepmayer

[mrelwood]

On 9/6/2023 at 1:50 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

Paging @Funky, this might be the wheel for you.

I like that the community is actively hunting for wheels for individual members! 

But I’m afraid that @Funky would prefer 14” as a rim size rather than the tire’s outer diameter. As do I.

 Besides, suspension wheels have felt like too much of a hassle to him. Maybe a coil shock and (finally!) proper sliders would be worryless enough though.

 

 On behalf of @Funky,

- mrelwood

[Funky]

 No thanks - i don't want 14", 30kg wheel. Knowing the "trend", even this 14" will be way, way over 20kg.

 

I'm alright going down to 12" rim size, but not smaller. Maybe smaller, if it has big/fat tire, which makes overall diameter much bigger (Similar as begode A2.)

A 14" wheel should be under 20kg weight as requirement!!!!! Making it the same weight as some 18"(~25kg) is just simply dumb..  (Again A2 for reference being 21kg.)

And i can bet my left nut, that it will not have hollow bore motor, or very strong axle in general.. Overall light carry capacity, making this wheel not suited for me in first place. 

Also why does every single euc needs to have suspension..  I know why.. But still.. I bought euc for it's simplicity, the no need to mess with it and such. (Yes even 1 year - one maintenance is to many..)

 

 

End of useless rant. P.S. your Debby Downer.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Funky

[Funky]

I just want a good carry handle like all rest of "older" KingSong wheels.. And be under 20kg. Bonus if it has 12/14" rim and strong axle.

Is that too much of a ask..?  Don't care about it's battery capacity and speed much. Lightweight wheels should not go fast and far in first place! Their selling point is lightness and ease of carrying and lugging around when needed..

Most of new 16" wheels are trying to be what 18"inchers are.. Big battery, long ranges for travel and almost same speeds as big wheels. Sure it's great.. But from my viewpoint they all are almost the same. Copy of a Copy.. Big, heavy, fast, long range wheels.

I'm just kind of sad, because i have nothing to chose from. Nothing NEW has been released in lightweight category aside from Mten4 & A2. And even then A2 being 21kg isn't such a great wheel, because at 22kg you can get KS18L which is 18", 2200W, 50km/h wheel.

Doesn't help that most people want to ride whole day, great distances.. And go fast as possible.. As result small distance EUC's are being ignored completely.

S14 should be light. But the 14" wheel size is a bummer.. Even 16" sometimes feel to small. As you can feel all bumps and road imperfections. That's why i prefer 18" wheels as they more easily roll over those imperfections. I'm happy to go down to 16" if it has 3" tire, making it almost the same as 18x2.5" wheel. But 14" is way, way to small.. Even with suspension..

[alcatraz]

The S18 is 24kg. Let's just try and beat thay. If the S14 is 22kg at least it's progress.

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, alcatraz said:

The S18 is 24kg.

The launched production version was  upped to 25.5kg due to different materials. Most shops still show the old initially announced specs though.

 

[alcatraz]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

The launched production version was  upped to 25.5kg due to different materials. Most shops still show the old initially announced specs though.

 

Okok. Thanks.

It's weird that the lightest production suspension wheel is an 18in. Seems like there's potential for massive improvement.

[daniel1234]

Why ride small slow EUC, if you can ride VESC Onewheel ?

From some wheel size - I dont see point of shrinking EUC form factor.
Small wheels are unstable and you need to counter that with tyre wide. With wide tyre it is better to have side stance.

 

[alcatraz]

Stairs!

[Eucner]

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The launched production version was  upped to 25.5kg due to different materials. Most shops still show the old initially announced specs though.

KS-S18 v2 24.2 kg

[Funky]

It just shows that all those 35kg+++ are simply overweighed wheels. Made for street riding at high speed and going for endless miles.. Yet bicycle performing, sidewalk riding wheels are completely ignored. 

Good wheel built for 45km/h speeds with 1000Wh battery doesn't need to be heavier than 25kg. With or without suspension. 

Heck add smart BMS to ks16s and stronger axle and space for 3" tire and it will be right on mark 20KG! I bet they could even increase the max speed by ~5km/h. Making it 40km/h wheel. Keeping it's perfect trolley handle. <<< I would buy that instantly. Price also can be 2000$. (Yes we have S16 at 1999$, who cares.. Some people want light/small and are ready to pay any amount of $$$. Price doesn't really matter. The product matters..)

Ofc they can update the look, but still keep the amazing trolley/carry handle. Make it waterproof and things like that. Every single wheel made before can get an modern updated new model... Stop making 14d/16s/18l, etc. Make completely new wheels with all updated things..

Edited September 18, 2023 by Funky

[okvp]

1 hour ago, Eucner said:

KS-S18 v2 24.2 kg

So s18 v2 is actually 24,2kg and suspension seems to be working right out of box.

With a 16" wheel and Molicell batteries it would have been a snappy (11% more torque due wheel size) very light weight city suspension wheel. Switch to Samsung s50 cells and it would have had somewhat decent range for a small light weight wheel.

Even the 1500Wh (1,6kg more weight) 3p configuration with Samsung 50S might have been possible and still stay under new 25kg EU regulation.

I would buy a snappy small form factor 16" under 25kg  suspension wheel, which would be fun to do tricks with. Easy to toss trunk of the car or with public transport and  no need to have extra insurance of 2024 EU regulations. 

[mrelwood]

11 hours ago, okvp said:

So s18 v2 is actually 24,2kg and suspension seems to be working right out of box.

I’m not confident on the second part. But the weight decrease is nice!

11 hours ago, okvp said:

no need to have extra insurance of 2024 EU regulations. 

It would also have to have a max speed lower than 25km/h to go without an insurance. Having the user limit the top speed from an app doesn’t count, the wheel’s max speed is the maximum it’s capable of.

 Although, checking the top speed on these is difficult for the cops, especially if you have it limited to 25km/h. So the chances are much better for you to get a pass if the coppers get interested. A 30+ kg wheel is easy enough to assess just by lifting by hand.

[okvp]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I’m not confident on the second part. But the weight decrease is nice!

It would also have to have a max speed lower than 25km/h to go without an insurance. Having the user limit the top speed from an app doesn’t count, the wheel’s max speed is the maximum it’s capable of.

 Although, checking the top speed on these is difficult for the cops, especially if you have it limited to 25km/h. So the chances are much better for you to get a pass if the coppers get interested. A 30+ kg wheel is easy enough to assess just by lifting by hand.

At least the suspension of Ecodrift wheel works well out of the box, i know that the first version had bad tolerance problems. 

25kg is 10kg less than KS22 pro and 14KG less than Patton that is a lot. Durability in rough trail usage is probably not that good but I think it's out of the scope of the wheel.

S18 modified to compact 16", samsung 50s, with torque tweeked  firmware/ motherboard, flat sides for custom pads, a non glazed light, under 25kg and optional 25km/h firmware. It would probably sell like a hotcake.

[Funky]

I do wonder now..

Will it have the big beefy 14" tire? Like you would have space for 90/100 tires? Even being 10" rim - that alone would make it almost the same as 16" wheel that uses 16x2.125" tire. In some cases even bigger..

14"- 35Cm. 16"- 40Cm. 18"- 45Cm.

Even on my KS18XL, my 80/80-14 tire is 48Cm in diameter. Making it more 19".. If small 10" rim have enough space for those big tires - that would be game changer!

And if it's closer to 16" size. Will it be that noticeable versus 19" tire? Like riding over gravel, small curbs, small potholes, going over railroad walkway..? Non-Suspension vs Suspension - my guess S14 would be more comfortable ride vs even non-suspension 19" wheel. IF it has that big beefy tire.

BUT if it has small/skinny 14" tire? Making it closer to original 14" size. Will the suspension make it more comfortable ride then vs non-suspension 19" wheel?

 

These are the things that keep me up at night.  Not how fast it goes.. Or how much range it has.. The thing that touches the ground and actually matter! The TIRE!!!! All praise the rubber!  

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Funky

[mrelwood]

 

On 9/22/2023 at 9:07 PM, Funky said:

If small 10" rim have enough space for those big tires - that would be game changer!

Agreed! Although, even the 14x2.5” tire on the MCM5 v2 is a much nicer ride than a 2.125”. 3” would be very nice. At least the tires do exist.

 

On 9/22/2023 at 9:07 PM, Funky said:

Will the suspension make it more comfortable ride then vs non-suspension 19" wheel?

Oh, absolutely. Even if it had a 2.125” tire, and even if it only had like 50mm of travel, the suspension would surely be nicer on gravel and rough roads. As long as the suspension works decently of course. The recent Begodes and Commanders are very stiff for small bumps like that from what I’ve heard.

 

On 9/22/2023 at 9:07 PM, Funky said:

All praise the rubber!  

Just to be sure, is this a sex thing or…?

[Funky]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

At least the tires do exist.

At 3" (90/90, 90/100 size) yes they exist.. Smaller size - not so many to choose from.. (I want M/C tire.) I only found 2 M/C tires that even needed to be cut to fit my 18xl..

If 10" wheel have space only for 2.125" or 2.5" - good luck finding any M/C tire.

 

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Oh, absolutely. Even if it had a 2.125” tire, and even if it only had like 50mm of travel, the suspension would surely be nicer on gravel and rough roads. As long as the suspension works decently of course. The recent Begodes and Commanders are very stiff for small bumps like that from what I’ve heard.

10x2.125" with suspension is much better ride than non suspension 19"???  Bruhh.. Are you for real? Or are you high on life? No for real - i don't believe that small tire will feel so much better than real solid 19" one..

My commute have 12 railroads to pass (Ride over them - you know the walkway railroads.. Even on 19" still quit bumpy.) and ~100 meters gravel road with 2 finger deep potholes.. Rest ~4km is smooth brick walkway. I wonder how 10" suspension wheel will feel compared to my 18xl 19" non-suspension..

Also 10" wheel won't have that "want to follow road indents/grooves" effect much worse than 19" would? I sometimes can feel my wheel catching them brick walkway grooves. For little moment it feels like you are falling.. As tire goes in the groove and starts following it. (I know going zig~zag over the grooves fixes it.. But sometimes you need to ride straight.)

 

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Just to be sure, is this a sex thing or…?

Nah, just that thick black rubber tires. 2.5" tire already seems to narrow for my liking. I for sure would not like a 10" wheel with 2.5" or with narrower one..

Do you believe that S14 will have hollow bore motor??  Or have 260lbs+ carry limit? I don't see that happening.. Doh would be awesome surprise!

Price being under 1500$, maybe i should pick it up? OFC if it's decent.. Same build like S16. If built like S19 - nah, no thanks. (And yes it will be under 1500$. 1299$ more correctly.) 

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

At 3" (90/90, 90/100 size)

3" equivalent is a 80 tire, or slightly smaller.

2 hours ago, Funky said:

10x2.125" with suspension is much better ride than non suspension 19"??? 

No, we were talking about 14” wheels (10” rim size). Mten is a 10” wheel. (6” rim…? Not sure.) And 19” tires don’t exist.

I didn’t check for motorcycle tires for a 14x3” wheel, but they would be marked 2.75-10 or from 70/80-10 to 80/100-10.

 But yeah, for strictly riding on gravel or bumpy roads, I’d take a 14x2.125” with a decent suspension rather than a 18x2.5” without one.

Like I’ve said before, you have no idea what kind of a game changer the suspension is.

2 hours ago, Funky said:

Also 10" wheel won't have that "want to follow road indents/grooves" effect much worse than 19" would?

I’m not sure how much the tire diameter is a factor here, but thinner tires do less of that. Thinner tires don’t have the same tendency to stay upright, away from the surface, so if the surface tilts it doesn’t tilt a wheel with a narrow tire as much.

2 hours ago, Funky said:

Do you believe that S14 will have hollow bore motor??  Or have 260lbs+ carry limit?

My guess is that it does have a hollow bore motor… But 260lbs? Not a chance. Sorry.

 

[Funky]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

3" equivalent is a 80 tire, or slightly smaller.

A2 is using "90" wide i think? No? So i thought having same space for bigger tires would be amazing. Ridder can choose what size he wants.

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

No, we were talking about 14” wheels (10” rim size). Mten is a 10” wheel. (6” rim…? Not sure.) And 19” tires don’t exist.

Well tire goes on rim - which is 10".  And tire size is calculated only knowing how wide tire you can put on that 10" rim. It can be anywhere from 14" to 16"..

My K66 is 19" whole diameter being 48CM. (I was calculating like that. I know it still is 18" tire..)

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

But 260lbs? Not a chance. Sorry.

 Why not.. Even older KS16S have 265lbs carry capacity. Heck even 14D has 265lbs. If new wheel has updated axle and motor.. It should have 300lbs carry capacity easily. (Most of the carry capacity comes from pedal "L" hangers anyways - i think.)

[mrelwood]

 

5 hours ago, Funky said:

Well tire goes on rim - which is 10".

Yes. But a 14x2.125” tire (or other bicycle class tires) do not announce or mention it’s rim size. It’s: [tire diameter class, “x”, width].

 Motorcycle tire sizes are like this: 3.0-10 [width, ”-“, rim diameter], or like car tires: 80/90-10 [width in mm, “/“, height ratio %, “-“, rim diameter].

 You might want to read more about how the tire sizes are written from here:

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/19313-tire-sizes-explained

 

5 hours ago, Funky said:

 Why not.. Even older KS16S have 265lbs carry capacity.

Actually, I converted lbs to kg quite wrong on my head… You’re right, they do carry 265lbs. But still, while the S14 itself might handle 260lbs, I don’t think they’ll design and announce the suspension of a 14” wheel to work with a 260lbs rider. Wouldn’t mind to be positively surprised though.

[alcatraz]

I'm starting to love the 14x2.5in tire on my MCM5. 14in isn't bad at all. My dream now is to put on a 14x3.0 tire.

And to the topic, I'm now way more excited about this S14 than the S16 and S19. I'm a city rider, zero offroad. 

[Funky]

18 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

I'm starting to love the 14x2.5in tire on my MCM5. 14in isn't bad at all. My dream now is to put on a 14x3.0 tire.

And to the topic, I'm now way more excited about this S14 than the S16 and S19. I'm a city rider, zero offroad. 

Same. 

I just hope it's sub ~20kg in weight. Anything over it = pointless (in my mind). As at 25kg+ we are getting 16" and 18" wheels. And a 14" should not be same weight as bigger wheels. It should be unspoken rule when making new smaller wheel.

Otherwise we will have 50kg 14" wheels soon, that can travel 200km non-stop.. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Funky

[Paul D]

On 9/16/2023 at 3:17 PM, Funky said:

I just want a good carry handle like all rest of "older" KingSong wheels.. And be under 20kg. Bonus if it has 12/14" rim and strong axle.

Is that too much of a ask..?  Don't care about it's battery capacity and speed much. Lightweight wheels should not go fast and far in first place! Their selling point is lightness and ease of carrying and lugging around when needed..

Most of new 16" wheels are trying to be what 18"inchers are.. Big battery, long ranges for travel and almost same speeds as big wheels. Sure it's great.. But from my viewpoint they all are almost the same. Copy of a Copy.. Big, heavy, fast, long range wheels.

I'm just kind of sad, because i have nothing to chose from. Nothing NEW has been released in lightweight category aside from Mten4 & A2. And even then A2 being 21kg isn't such a great wheel, because at 22kg you can get KS18L which is 18", 2200W, 50km/h wheel.

Doesn't help that most people want to ride whole day, great distances.. And go fast as possible.. As result small distance EUC's are being ignored completely.

S14 should be light. But the 14" wheel size is a bummer.. Even 16" sometimes feel to small. As you can feel all bumps and road imperfections. That's why i prefer 18" wheels as they more easily roll over those imperfections. I'm happy to go down to 16" if it has 3" tire, making it almost the same as 18x2.5" wheel. But 14" is way, way to small.. Even with suspension..

Maybe just exercise some and wheels will feel lighter?  FFS

[Funky]

8 hours ago, Paul D said:

Maybe just exercise some and wheels will feel lighter?  FFS

Maybe they should stop ignoring "lightweight" category? FFS...

I have no problems carrying Sherman one handed.. I just don't wanna do that every single day! (FYI - I need to carry my wheel a lot! Can't be trolleyed around.)

Also i'm riding 25-35km/h speeds. And daily commute is ~5km.. Why the heck would i buy ANY of the new wheels that are over 55lbs heavy? Do i need the speed - no. Do i need the range that 1500Wh+ batteries have - no.

Have i got an option of buying anything NEW - no! (Aside of Mten4 clown wheel. And crappy A2.)