I just sank my 16X, hence question... R.I.P.?

[Robse]

16 minutes ago, andon said:

Back then it wasn't (there was no such thing at the time), nowadays yes.

i found something for you 😁

 

[andon]

@Robse Wow, thank you very much for this movie, as it referred also to this old way of doing it, I wasn't really aware of the facts. It seems ca. 1 meter (3 feet) is max to be able to take a breath. So I would just have to emerge from time to time while scouring every sq. meter with my hands inbetween, as visibility there is non-existent. Maybe the wheel won't be covered in ooze (silt) yet.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Robse said:

you can not breathe through a pipe when you are more than 50 cm / 2 feet under water. Its the water pressure that prevents you from breathing in air at ground level pressure. It's either free dive or scuba gear with tank and regulator.

He could use simple battery powered tire pump.   Or 2/3 combined. Feeding air down there. 

Or he could dive with some kind "soft" plastic bottle or something attached (Or simply bitten down really hard.) to his mouth - he needs 10-20 breaths under water only.. Dive up and redo/refill air. Do that till he finds euc.

You would be amazed how long you can stay under water with simple plastic bottle.  Breathe out/in bottle, or simply take air out of bottle, till it gets empty like scuba diving. (If you can't dive with full bottle with air - add counter weight to it.)

 

Or buy this simple hand cranked water pressured spray bottle.  You can even regulate how fast the air is coming. (Ofc you could buy also real air tank..)

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Funky

[meepmeepmayer]

You only need a carabiner/hook or something like this, on a rope. Dive down, fix it to the wheel (maybe the handle bar), and then you can pull it out with the rope. Takes 10 seconds. No diving equipment needed. Maybe a long stick even saves you the diving part if you can hook the wheel from the surface.

Edited August 14, 2023 by meepmeepmayer

[The Brahan Seer]

@andon  Useful to know (bare in mind this fire was started deliberately):

"despite this battery being de-energized via long term immersion, the video clearly shows significant flames, reminding stakeholders that any battery fire must be approached with caution despite the pack being nearly de-energized."

Taken from:

Study by US Dept of Transportation

See attached pdf for more details

EVS22-K03 [US]BatteryImmersion.pdf

Edited August 14, 2023 by The Brahan Seer

[Robse]

All kind of these "do it youself" videos / instructions about self made scuba gear should be banned and deleted!  These people have no f*cking idea of what they are doing and what consequences it may have playing around with unregulated air pressure for inhalation by people under water pressure.  Dont do it!.  Its not a game!

Edited August 14, 2023 by Robse

[andon]

@The Brahan Seer I'm reading it carefully.

[The Brahan Seer]

They are looking at using saline solutions to de-energize batteries quickly for re cycling. I would have thought batteries being submerged for an extended period of time will discharge so maybe the odds of it spontaneously combusting is low. Difficulty is no-one has really studied it extensively. It may be the cells in the battery cases are holding out quite well from water immersion and corrosion so I would suggest being very careful with handling and storage once you retrieve the wheel just incase.  

[Funky]

21 minutes ago, Robse said:

All kind of these "do it youself" videos / instructions about self made scuba gear should be banned and deleted!  These people have no f*cking idea of what they are doing and what consequences it may have playing around with unregulated air pressure for inhalation by people under water pressure.  Dont do it!.  Its not a game!

Yolo.

BTW it has regulated air pressure for intake. The nozzle can be tightened/loosened for more intake or less. Also he just needs to dive 3-5 meters under water.. He can simply free dive that. Or use long stick with a hook.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Funky

[andon]

I've read almost all of it, thank you, as it is very important. So yes, there is no 100% answer if it would be safe after take-out. Getting to the battery (unscrewing) takes time, and it is a dangerous time-window. In their case, after 24 hours of immersion there still was 50V in some of the batteries, what may lead to a "thermal event".

From this disassembly video by Ecodrift that @meepmeepmayer posted, batteries in 16X seem pretty well sealed, meaning it can a long (unknown really) time for them to discharge fully while immersed. So, the longer my ex-wheel stays there, the more likely it won't blow upon or shortly after emerging it, yet still there is no certainty.

Thank you all for your support, joint brain-storm with good intentions is what is quite rare these days, it is great being here.

 

[Paul g]

   It is not nice to leave the wheel at the bottom because it is a danger to wildlife.

  The best thing you can do first is to find out how deep the water is, and this you can cheaply do with a metal piece at the end of a thread/thin rope and probing that area where you lost it. If the bottom is in reach (with a pole, stick, fishing rods) then you can start searching for it with a hook on a pole (and a rope on the hook). The hook can be made of any metal rod that you can bend. 

   If the bottom is too far, better let the local firefighters know about the place and the time it happened. It would be ridiculous for you to make scuba to recover the wheel. You might drown and is not worth it.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Paul g

[andon]

I will not leave it there. I talked today to 3 firefighters, but the weren't of this field, so didn't know how to deal with it. Tomorrow I will visit another fire station. Thanks.

[Paul g]

Just now, andon said:

I will not leave it there. I talked today to 3 firefighters, but the weren't of this field, so didn't know how to deal with it. Tomorrow I will visit another fire station. Thanks.

     You need to call the emergency Centre, 112, or something, in EU. Don’t go to the fire station. The Centre takes your call and gives the case to the proper intervention team. In this way your case is registered and they have the responsibility from then on to recover it.

[alcatraz]

How about contacting a plumber? They've got those cable cameras. You'd need a hook and a long stick.

[OldFartRides]

Ok, the old fart weighs in….

First and foremost, is the water dirty ? If yes, don’t go in.

2. If dirty, and the slope to the water edge is steep, you have to be on rope to make it down there. This means self belay, or top belay.

3. if you go the on rope route, then you need the pole/ hook/ net device to go fishing for the wheel.

Your welcome.

[meepmeepmayer]

At this point, you could give some pictures, then we can strategize how to best get the wheel out of the water

[andon]

17 hours ago, Paul g said:

     You need to call the emergency Centre, 112, or something, in EU. Don’t go to the fire station. The Centre takes your call and gives the case to the proper intervention team. In this way your case is registered and they have the responsibility from then on to recover it.

I had visited fire station today and talked to another ff, he advised the same: call 112, as they are supervised by them. Yet I want to talk to a fireman with similar experience b4 I do it or have them do it.

12 hours ago, alcatraz said:

How about contacting a plumber? They've got those cable cameras. You'd need a hook and a long stick.

Water is cloudy, you can't see anything.

 

11 hours ago, OldFartRides said:

Ok, the old fart weighs in….

First and foremost, is the water dirty ? If yes, don’t go in.

2. If dirty, and the slope to the water edge is steep, you have to be on rope to make it down there. This means self belay, or top belay.

3. if you go the on rope route, then you need the pole/ hook/ net device to go fishing for the wheel.

Your welcome.

Hey, yes, it's not transparent. Before I take it out of the water, I want to be absolutely sure it won't pose a danger to me. Thank you.

 

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

At this point, you could give some pictures, then we can strategize how to best get the wheel out of the water

It's a 1 hour drive. I'm not touching it b4 being certain it is safe. I have a cat that depends on me, sorry...

[Paul g]

2 minutes ago, andon said:

I had visited fire station today and talked to another ff, he advised the same: call 112, as they are supervised by them. Yet I want to talk to a fireman with similar experience b4 I do it or have them do it.

Water is cloudy, you can't see anything.

 

Hey, yes, it's not transparent. Before I take it out of the water, I want to be absolutely sure it won't pose a danger to me. Thank you.

 

It's a 1 hour drive. I'm not touching it b4 being certain it is safe. I have a cat that depends on me, sorry...

   I’m sorry to give you this info, but I don’t think you’ll be able to save it. If you’d take it out of the water right then, then you would have had a chance, but not after a day or more. You risk your life taking those battery pack apart, that is like a bomb.

[alcatraz]

16 minutes ago, andon said:

Water is cloudy, you can't see anything.

Very cloudy? I mean the camera has a light and it can be moved up close to the bottom. Maybe it'll pick up something.

Also, the wheel migjt be heavy outside the water, but in the water you don't really need to lift its full weight to get it up to the surface.

Edited August 15, 2023 by alcatraz

[The Brahan Seer]

18 minutes ago, Paul g said:

You risk your life taking those battery pack apart, that is like a bomb.

I don't think its that bad. Consider how many disposable vapes you see lying around outside, they contain the same rechargeable batteries and aren't exploding around us.

[The Brahan Seer]

@andon  Here are 2 studies on how they propose to recycle Li-ion batteries. In some cases to crush and in others to reclaim existing cells..

(More to put your mind at rest of the potential reactions etc), they are looking at the options for the safest way to deal with large numbers at commercial scale.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352152X21000864

and/or

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214993718302343

 

[Paul g]

     I hope you are aware you are telling a guy that has never worked with Li-Ion battery packs, that has no proper equipment or training in that, to recover his wheel after it sat at the bottom of a lake for a few days.

[The Brahan Seer]

Just now, Paul g said:

I hope you are aware you are telling a guy that has never worked with Li-Ion battery packs, that has no proper equipment or training in that, to recover his wheel after it sat at the bottom of a lake for a few days.

Am I? I haven't told him to do anything. Maybe read my replies. 

[andon]

2 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

@andon  Here are 2 studies on how they propose to recycle Li-ion batteries. In some cases to crush and in others to reclaim existing cells..

(More to put your mind at rest of the potential reactions etc), they are looking at the options for the safest way to deal with large numbers at commercial scale.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352152X21000864

and/or

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214993718302343

 

Thank you. According to first study, after 95 hours of submerging 18650 Li-ion bat. in mild saline solution, it showed no less than 1.7V right after taking it out of the water, to gain another +-0.6V afterwards... They say: This is a finding that has not been discussed before in this context and one that represents a serious hazard in recycling facilities. So they repeated this process of sub- and emerging until, after relaxation, it showed ca. 2V, which is low enough for safe shredding of LIBs. And now: it took them 900 hours to get there... Let's remember, we're talking about a single cell, not a pack, wrapped tightly with foil AND a saline solution, not pure water in which discharge will take a lot (we don't know how much) longer.

Second study you have kindly posted focuses on many different solutions in which single cells are bathed, but there is no comparison to the analogical process in pure water. They say: Given that the rate of discharge should be strongly linked to conductivity - it translates into: low rate of discharge in pure water. Still talking about a single cell, not a pack of 40...

In the end they relate to fire hazard: Nevertheless, the hydrogen will not spontaneously combust unless there is at least 4 vol% of H₂ in the gaseous mix. 4% represents the lower limit for upward propagation of a flame through the mixture; for horizontal propagation this limit rises to 6%, and for downwards propagation it is as high as 9%. (...) Given the need to be conservative with health and safety, a strict upper limit of 4% H₂ must be observed to ensure safety, which will require a good ventilation system. So - if I get it right - the risk of spontaneous combustion appears beyond 4%H₂ in the air, so - theoretically - with constant ventilation, i.e. a large fan - it shouldn't blow? But how to do it?

 

 

[andon]

4 hours ago, Paul g said:

   I’m sorry to give you this info, but I don’t think you’ll be able to save it. If you’d take it out of the water right then, then you would have had a chance, but not after a day or more. You risk your life taking those battery pack apart, that is like a bomb.

Yep, I guess I've already gotten over the hope that it can be restored. Now it's a question how to get it out safely. I'll find a solution to this, though.