Enough is Enough

[Cerbera]

36 minutes ago, Freeforester said:

Maybe a judiciously placed wooden or printed wedge/mini ramp might help?

Lols - yes that was going to be my plan had I not sorted the roll up technique !

I actually have to use my ramp 3 times to get the wheel from car to house - once from car to road, again to get down the 3 steep steps to my back door, and then the same ramp again to cross the threshold, as there is quite a big step up to the side of the house with a plastic skirting that means the wheel skids rather than gripping. Sound like a PITA, but this folding dog ramp is excellent, grippy as all hell, and light and manoeuvrable, so makes it a total breeze.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Cerbera

[Spaghetteh]

Chiming in with my "ideal wheel", at least as it would be now. Features ordered by requirements to negotiables

18"-20" street tire, "goldilocks zone" of stability and maneuverability for me ~ 45mph top-speed w/ headroom so I can keep up with most urban traffic ~ waterproofing, I don't need a submarine but I want to be able to ride in heavy rain ~ proven battery safety so fire risk is near 0% ~ true smart BMS so I don't have to think about pack balancing ~ 50 miles of range or 30 miles minimum w/ built-in fast charging ~ 50-70 pounds in weight ~ suspension for potholes and such ~ configurable riding modes curves, hard braking and acceleration from 0-20mph, softer acceleration for higher speeds

Basically, I want the reliability of an 18XL with the speed and features of a V12 HS and the suspension of a V11. I had hopes the V13 would be just that... and it kinda seems to be except for the fact that it's nearly two times as big as I want it to be.

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Spaghetteh

[samzed]

I would definitely have been willing to pay an extra $150 for my ninebot Z10. But then again I think I may have paid for this anyway because the amazon dealer had a lot of successful pev transactions (cyberbot). My Z10 costed 1700$ including tax. It functions perfectly. I think it's a fantastic wheel, however, I don't know how much work went into possibly restoring it before I bought it.

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by samzed
weird double post thingy

[David 1200]

First forgive me if you’ve already heard this I  just don’t wanna spend 30 minutes reading everyone’s post. The EUC world is still very young…. The market hasn’t matured yet. These companies are relatively small the demand is going up. What you’re looking for won’t be for a few more years. When the companies learn what works and what doesn’t work. What people actually want. There’s still gonna be a first for a bunch of things in the EUC world….. for example when will we get an automatic self adjusting suspension? When will we get wheels that can detect wobbles and automatically slow down? When will we get a 100 mph wheel? All of these things haven’t happened yet but will most likely happen in the next few years to come. With that means trial and error phase…. Not really sure how else to explain it….

[mrelwood]

12 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

so when i say the market has spoken, what i really mean is the financial data is clearly telling them to make hig wheels.

However, you too seem to disagree with yourself a bit by continuing your post with:

12 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

your obviously going to concentrate on increasing your margins within the limits of your facility. 

If the manufacturers are driven by maximizing profits per unit, they are not listening to what the markets speak. They are creating the markets.

And as was demonstrated, the small wheels are often out of stock as well. So there must be an overwhelming demand for them just as well, despite being ancient designs in the EUC time scale.

 

3 hours ago, David 1200 said:

First forgive me if you’ve already heard this I  just don’t wanna spend 30 minutes reading everyone’s post.

In my personal opinion it's a bit bold to think that you'd be able to post relevant content if you don't know what we've discussed.

3 hours ago, David 1200 said:

when will we get an automatic self adjusting suspension?

Very rare in cars, motorcycles or bicycles, so my guess is that we won't.

3 hours ago, David 1200 said:

When will we get wheels that can detect wobbles and automatically slow down?

If you read a bit on the physics of riding an EUC and wobbles, you'll learn that slowing down is what usually makes the wobbles worse.

3 hours ago, David 1200 said:

When will we get a 100 mph wheel?

Another physics issue. The winds are simply too much at those speeds for riding an EUC standing upright. Most riders don't go above 40-45mph because already the winds make it too uncomfortable.

Have you ever tried to stand still at 100mph winds? I haven't, but I can tell you that much much slower winds are already pretty darn horrible.

This is how riding at 100mph would feel like if there were no wind at standstill:

https://youtu.be/ezIqFyjAUP4

Edited October 19, 2022 by mrelwood

[techyiam]

11 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Have you ever tried to stand still at 100mph winds? I haven't, but I can tell you that much much slower winds are already pretty darn horrible.

This is how riding at 100mph would feel like if there were no wind at standstill:

Just another hurdle. 

I would speculate that when we can, the weight of the euc would probably approach that of motorcycles. And there will be some aerodynamic devices on the wheel or being worn by the rider.

On my CBR125R going at an indicated speed of 130 km/h, if I seat up from my aerodynamic tuck, I instantly lose a lot of speed. And this bike has a fairing. 

 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Just another hurdle. 

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

I would speculate that when we can, the weight of the euc would probably approach that of motorcycles. And there will be some aerodynamic devices on the wheel or being worn by the rider.

How convenient... Just put on this aerodynamic suit, push the 150kg EUC on the driveway (make sure it's pointing the right way since it doesn't turn all that well), install the fairings on you (not earlier since you can't really walk around with them), and remember to avoid cops since your contraption is deemed illegal on public roads due to sub par handling and safety. And this time the police will actually enforce the law since it was showcased in the news.

Maybe instead at some point enough is indeed enough?

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

... push the 150kg EUC on the driveway ...

Not that far fetched. 

Honda Grom vs Honda Goldwing 

In the early days of motorcycles, some people may have thought 900 lbs mammoth would not be rideable too . Who in their right would buy one?

[Funky]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Not that far fetched. 

Honda Grom vs Honda Goldwing 

In the early days of motorcycles, some people may have thought 900 lbs mammoth would not be rideable too . Who in their right would buy one?

V13 buyers.

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

Not that far fetched. 

Honda Grom vs Honda Goldwing 

In the early days of motorcycles, some people may have thought 900 lbs mammoth would not be rideable too . Who in their right would buy one?

This argument is being used pretty often. "Sherman used to be too big as well." Etc.

But there is a limit to all this. Even small shop prototype EUCs will never weigh more than 100kg, as it simply can't be a wheel that would react to the rider's input with any reasonable assertion.

The V13 size group will probably stay as the Goldwing of EUCs: amazing at steady speed cruising, but rarely to be seen, and which most riders will never even get to try. But noticeably bigger ones will never be made.

[Funky]

29 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

This argument is being used pretty often. "Sherman used to be too big as well." Etc.

But there is a limit to all this. Even small shop prototype EUCs will never weigh more than 100kg, as it simply can't be a wheel that would react to the rider's input with any reasonable assertion.

The V13 size group will probably stay as the Goldwing of EUCs: amazing at steady speed cruising, but rarely to be seen, and which most riders will never even get to try. But noticeably bigger ones will never be made.

Never say never. I bet there will be 60kg+ wheels.  At least if we look at "market".

[techyiam]

Even if no advances were to be made, judging from what we have seen on videos of what some riders can do with these heavy wheels, should the sales volume justify it, even heavier wheels will come out to test the waters. But if no one buys them, then perhaps the sweet spot has been found for the current market trend.

[Freeforester]

Battery advances may help reduce weight, but may be both ‘small’ and ‘far away’…

 

 

[atdlzpae]

21 minutes ago, Freeforester said:

Battery advances may help reduce weight, but may be both ‘small’ and ‘far away’…

Last serious battery breakthrough were Li-ion's 30 years ago. And since then like every week media is promising new batteries...

I'll believe it when I see it. When there is a product with a datasheet I can simply buy and test. For now we're stuck at Li-ion and (for some use cases) LiFePo4 as a state-of-the-art battery technology.

Edited October 19, 2022 by atdlzpae

[Bone]

There are like three active threads on this same subject right now, and I don't understand the sentiment behind any of them.  Smaller wheels exist, they're still being made, they're just not getting better because of battery and motor limitations.  If you really just want a small, inexpensive last mile wheel, what exactly is wrong with buying a v5?  What about these older model wheels would you improve that wouldn't add size or weight?

In my opinion the smaller format wheels have been done, there just doesn't seem to be any room for meaningful improvement until battery or motor technology advances in a significant way, and even when it does I'm sure people will complain about the price of the new tech.

[Funky]

38 minutes ago, Bone said:

There are like three active threads on this same subject right now, and I don't understand the sentiment behind any of them.  Smaller wheels exist, they're still being made, they're just not getting better because of battery and motor limitations.  If you really just want a small, inexpensive last mile wheel, what exactly is wrong with buying a v5?  What about these older model wheels would you improve that wouldn't add size or weight?

In my opinion the smaller format wheels have been done, there just doesn't seem to be any room for meaningful improvement until battery or motor technology advances in a significant way, and even when it does I'm sure people will complain about the price of the new tech.

Same thing can be said about big/heavy wheels.. They also are done and any meaningful improvement would result in even heavier, more expensive wheels.

Anything that was made ~5 years ago can be updated quit bit.. Same as all the new wheels can be made better. (Any wheel ever released can be improved..)

What you need to understand - is that there have been no "new" releases.. In smaller commuter class department. But in heavy weight you got: T4, Master, EX20S, Hero, Master pro. from single manufacturer.. (I think i even missed some wheels..) 5 new wheels in heavy weight. 0 "smaller" wheels. Okay - i was wrong, you got Mten4, but it's more of a toy..

We commuters simply want something "new" also... That isn't overkill at slower/smaller rides.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Funky

[Bone]

3 minutes ago, Funky said:

Same thing can be said about big/heavy wheels.. They also are done and any meaningful improvement would result in even heavier wheels.

Anything that was made 5 years ago can be updated quit bit.. Same as all the new wheels can be made better. (Any wheel ever released can be improved..)

What you need to understand - is that there have been no "new" releases.. In smaller commuter class department. But in heavy weight you got: T4, Master, EX20S, Hero, Master pro. from single manufacturer.. 5 new wheels in heavy weight. 0 "smaller" wheels. Okay - i was wrong, you got Mten4, but it's more of a toy..

We simply want something "new" also...

Ok, you want something new, but what?  Do you just want a facelift on an existing platform?  Do you want:

• More range (more batteries in parallel = size and weight)?
• More speed (more batteries in series = size and weight)? 
• Suspension (linkage, shock and sliders = size and weight)? 

Even the "new" wheels you mentioned are just that, last gen wheels with one or more of those options tacked on.  What would your "new" wheel look like?  What advantages would it have over an older wheel?

The mten4 is literally a new version of a smaller wheel with improved performance, exactly what you're asking for, but you call it just a toy.  What performance or size qualifies as more than a toy, but not a heavyweight wheel?

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Bone said:

Ok, you want something new, but what?  Do you just want a facelift on an existing platform?  Do you want:

• More range (more batteries in parallel = size and weight)?
• More speed (more batteries in series = size and weight)? 
• Suspension (linkage, shock and sliders = size and weight)? 

Even the "new" wheels you mentioned are just that, last gen wheels with one or more of those options tacked on.  What would your "new" wheel look like?  What advantages would it have over an older wheel?

The mten4 is literally a new version of a smaller wheel with improved performance, exactly what you're asking for, but you call it just a toy.  What performance or size qualifies as more than a toy, but not a heavyweight wheel?

18xl is perfect for my needs. (Mostly bought it - because it's the lightest 18" wheel..)

But could have had real 3" tire. For more options in aftermarket tires. Same time be ~5mph faster. (But don't really need the speed.) Also in perfect world it had real smart bms and water rating.

More of less a "facelift" with added said better bms and water rating. Same time removing all plastics and replacing them with tin foil.  (Last part was kinda a joke..) Would be great if it had metal inner frame. Motor connected to plastic case vs metal frame.. All you need is 3x boxes. 2 for battery, 1 for mobo. Connected to said frame.

 

And by toy i mean it has that 11" tire.. If it had let's say 16/18 tire - it would peak my interest. Battery wise it's perfect for small commutes. And speed is okay also.

If it was "real" wheel, i bet it had 16" wheel and could easily go 35mph. And 1000-1200Wh battery.

I personally don't want 16" wheel. Because 18" simply rolls better.. But if the 16" was build very well and had 16x3" tire - i may think about it.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Funky

[Bone]

10 minutes ago, Funky said:

18xl is perfect for my needs. (Mostly bought it - because it's the lightest 18" wheel..)

But could have had real 3" tire. For more options in aftermarket tires. Same time be ~5mph faster. (But don't really need the speed.) Also in perfect world it had real smart bms and water rating.

More of less a "facelift" with added said better bms and water rating. Same time removing all plastics and replacing them with tin foil.  (Last part was kinda a joke..) Would be great if it had metal inner frame. Motor connected to plastic case vs metal frame.. All you need is 3x boxes. 2 for battery, 1 for mobo. Connected to said frame.

 

And by toy i mean it has that 11" tire.. If it had let's say 16/18 tire - it would peak my interest. Battery wise it's perfect for small commutes. And speed is okay also.

If it was "real" wheel, i bet it had 16" wheel and could easily go 35mph. And 1000-1200Wh battery.

I personally don't want 16" wheel. Because 18" simply rolls better.. But if the 16" was build very well and has real 16x3" tire - i may think about it.

I'm surprised you call the T4 a heavyweight then, it seems like it fits your needs.  16" with suspension is going to roll a lot better than an 18" without IMO, and 1800 wh doesn't seem like it's too much bigger than your optimal battery size.

[rcgldr]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

What you need to understand - is that there have been no "new" releases.. In smaller commuter class department.

Inmotion V8S? Maybe someday a V10S?

[GoGeorgeGo]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

This argument is being used pretty often. "Sherman used to be too big as well." Etc.

But there is a limit to all this. Even small shop prototype EUCs will never weigh more than 100kg, as it simply can't be a wheel that would react to the rider's input with any reasonable assertion.

The V13 size group will probably stay as the Goldwing of EUCs: amazing at steady speed cruising, but rarely to be seen, and which most riders will never even get to try. But noticeably bigger ones will never be made.

idk, the master pro clocking in at 120lbs is actually rather nimble and playful to ride suprisingly. i was shocked how responsive and light it felt riding it. i can see wheels being significantly heavier and still riding well

[Funky]

17 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

idk, the master pro clocking in at 120lbs is actually rather nimble and playful to ride suprisingly. i was shocked how responsive and light it felt riding it. i can see wheels being significantly heavier and still riding well

While we ride - we don't feel the weight of the wheel. You know what i mean...

43 minutes ago, Bone said:

I'm surprised you call the T4 a heavyweight then, it seems like it fits your needs.  16" with suspension is going to roll a lot better than an 18" without IMO, and 1800 wh doesn't seem like it's too much bigger than your optimal battery size.

Don't make me laugh. T4 is trash wheel in my eyes. Simply because gotway made it. All that motor slippage issues, etc.. Also i don't really want suspension - another part that needs to be worked on. I'll take non-suspension wheel over suspension everyday of the week.

1550Wh is to much for me even. I charge my wheel twice a week. (If i don't go for "fun" ride.)

Also weight wise T4 is the max i'm willing to carry. I would want something lighter than 18xl if possible..

Edited October 19, 2022 by Funky

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

idk, the master pro clocking in at 120lbs is actually rather nimble and playful to ride suprisingly. i was shocked how responsive and light it felt riding it. i can see wheels being significantly heavier and still riding well

That is interesting. 4800Wh range, but still nimble and playful enough.

Incidentally, have you had the chance to ride the Abrams? If you did, how does the Abrams compare to the Master Pro? Thanks.

[mrelwood]

 

2 hours ago, Bone said:

Do you want:

• More range (more batteries in parallel = size and weight)?
• More speed (more batteries in series = size and weight)?

He's not asking for only any single number in the specs to be bigger. That would be the GW mindset.

2 hours ago, Bone said:

What advantages would it have over an older wheel?

My list is surely different than @Funky's, but here's mine on what could be added to or improved on in old smaller EUCs:

Hollow core motor, display/touch screen, aluminium frame, controller output power, next gen suspension (ShermS style for example), spiked honeycomb pedals, included pads, usable head- and tail lights (V11 style), 3" tire. To name a few.

All suspension components on the V11 weigh just a few kgs. Make a 16S with 3" tire and suspension that weighs 21kg and our complaints would already be much more faint.

 

2 hours ago, Bone said:

The mten4 is literally a new version of a smaller wheel with improved performance, exactly what you're asking for, but you call it just a toy.  What performance or size qualifies as more than a toy, but not a heavyweight wheel?

The Mten4 is a ridiculously overpriced hazardous design made of bendy sheet metal and a thin axle that's known to break easily. The fact that it goes twice as fast that it can safely  support doesn't make it a non-toy.

Edited October 19, 2022 by mrelwood

[Bone]

22 minutes ago, Funky said:

Don't make me laugh. T4 is trash wheel in my eyes. Simply because gotway made it.

You have a lot of criticism for what gotway makes for someone who wouldn't want to buy a gotway.  Their wheels are typically for performance fanatics who don't mind looking past build quality issues, so why complain about them making wheels for their own market?

4 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Hollow core motor, display/touch screen, aluminium frame, controller output power, next gen suspension (ShermS style for example), spiked honeycomb pedals, included pads, usable head- and tail lights (V11 style), 3" tire. To name a few.

I can understand this wish list better than most of what I've seen in this thread, but most of this stuff simply doesn't matter for a low spec wheel.  Maybe if kingsong ever digs out of their S22 quagmire they can make a new 16S with some bells and whistles for you