Kingsong 16x vs 18XL as a first wheel

[MandatoryFun]

I'm looking to get into EUCs and I've narrowed it down to either the 16x or 18XL. They both seem like very practical wheels that a new rider can grow into. Currently trying to decide between the two.

Wondering if anybody has any input on the differences of the braking characteristics between the two wheels. For anybody who has tried out the two wheels: which wheel tends to wobble more? Should I even be worried about wobbling?

[Tawpie]

Welcome to the forum, source of way too much information, and to wheeling, consumer of money, spender of time, and the best thing since sliced... bacon.

There's a recent discussion of this very topic, and my opinions are biased but you might want to search around and see if you can find it. I learned on a 16X and it remains in my stable, probably will forever. I've never ridden an 18XL, but the universal consensus is it is about as solid and easy and dependable a wheel as you can get. Owners swear by them, not at them. (people don't swear at the 16X either, but other wheels…). Either is a fantastic choice. 18XL is an Accord. 16X more of a Civic. 18XL has a certain refinement, 16X retains a bit of an edge. 18XL is the choice for road work, 16X for off road.

Yes, do expect wobbling. Don't be terribly worried about it—it'll go away with experience. Just don't get overconfident too quickly so that your literal 'return to earth' isn't as damaging. Assume you'll fall, reduce your risk to your comfort level, and get riding!!!!

I think the 16X will probably out-stop an 18XL but haven't heard a comparison.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Tawpie

[RamonatheCat]

In my experience the 18xl wobbled less as it had a bigger tire. 16x is a more popular wheel with most riders and is torquier. I liked the 18xl more personally. 

 

[MandatoryFun]

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Welcome to the forum, source of way too much information, and to wheeling, consumer of money, spender of time, and the best thing since sliced... bacon.

There's a recent discussion of this very topic, and my opinions are biased but you might want to search around and see if you can find it. I learned on a 16X and it remains in my stable, probably will forever. I've never ridden an 18XL, but the universal consensus is it is about as solid and easy and dependable a wheel as you can get. Owners swear by them, not at them. (people don't swear at the 16X either, but other wheels…). Either is a fantastic choice. 18XL is an Accord. 16X more of a Civic. 18XL has a certain refinement, 16X retains a bit of an edge. 18XL is the choice for road work, 16X for off road.

Yes, do expect wobbling. Don't be terribly worried about it—it'll go away with experience. Just don't get overconfident too quickly so that your literal 'return to earth' isn't as damaging. Assume you'll fall, reduce your risk to your comfort level, and get riding!!!!

I think the 16X will probably out-stop an 18XL but haven't heard a comparison.

Thanks! I am definitely here for the information! It's definitely a hard choice. I can see myself wanting a bit more fun from the 16x but I can also see myself just wanting a more comfortable ride with 18XL.

As for safety, I already have some gear coming from my e-scooter. And I'm prepared for my ego to be plowed into the ground at a reasonable speed.

I do wish there was a compilation of braking distances for EUCs like there are for scooters to make more informed purchases but the market isn't as large.

[MandatoryFun]

2 hours ago, RamonatheCat said:

In my experience the 18xl wobbled less as it had a bigger tire. 16x is a more popular wheel with most riders and is torquier. I liked the 18xl more personally. 

 

Good to know. I half expected that to be the result since the general trend is larger wheels equal more stability. Figures that it would translate to braking. I thought the slightly wider tire on the 16x could have made up for the size of the wheel.

[techyiam]

16 minutes ago, MandatoryFun said:

I half expected that to be the result since the general trend is larger wheels equal more stability. Figures that it would translate to braking. I thought the slightly wider tire on the 16x could have made up for the size of the wheel.

The tire mounted on the wheel is a huge factor. I believe the consensus is that the stock 18XL is more stable than the stock 16X.

After the initial learning phase, what type of riding do you see yourself doing? 

[plentora]

I started on 18XL few weeks ago. I don't see any problems it being first wheel.

Bigger tire goes over bigger bumps a bit easily. However this kind of wheels aren't the perfect option for offroading because of narrow tire and lack of suspension. When learning I was sure that 18XL doesn't work on gravel but nowdays it doesn't really make difference which platform I'm cruising in. Just find your preferred tire pressure - it is really important part.

Speed wobbles is nothing to worry, it is matter of stance and goes away when experiencing. It took me 40 minutes to ride without support but maybe 300km to get into same comfort level as riding bike / same speeds.

I would definely recommend (and so does many others) 18XL to anyone. Great wheel that doesn't need replaced to something bigger/etc after you learn to ride.

 

[Mono]

1 hour ago, MandatoryFun said:

I do wish there was a compilation of braking distances for EUCs like there are for scooters to make more informed purchases but the market isn't as large.

It would remain to be relatively uninformative, as braking distance depends more on the rider than on the wheel. This is what I have seen for the most comprehensive comparison (timing set to brake test results), which measured decelerations between 0.54g and 0.63g (a European norm is >0.35g and >0.5g for bicycles and cars, respectively).

 

[Funky]

I also was choosing between 18xl and 16x. I had the option at looking at both of them in store. I even tried carrying both. I liked very much how 16x looks and that amazing 16x3" tire. But it had kinda bad handle. You know 16x handle is more "square" formed - meaning it felt ackwards carrying it around. Compered to 18xl "round" handle.

At the end i went with 18xl just because of handle. As i need to carry my wheel daily up/down 3 floors of stairs. (Some days more than 2 times..) Doh if i had to choose again, i think i would have gone with 16x. As it's simply would have been more "fun" wheel. Sure it has less "max" speed. Sure it may wobble more at speed. But that 16x3" tire would let me ride more with speed over bumps. Same time 18xl offer very stabile ride at speed. Has bigger tire - meaning you feel less of road "buzz" and overall are amazing also.

18xl also offers more carry limit - as i'm 280lbs i also liked that.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Funky

[MandatoryFun]

9 hours ago, techyiam said:

After the initial learning phase, what type of riding do you see yourself doing? 

I'm coming from an escooter and getting an EUC to alleviate my fears of theft. I only make really quick trips into stores/restaurants because bike thefts are very common where I live. I'm really into the idea that I can just use the trolley handle on the Kingsong EUCs to go inside and nobody will probably bat an eye. So, I plan on doing mostly city riding to run errands. But I also plan to just ride for leisure and fun. Either one would suffice for that. I was slightly leaning towards the 16x because I visit San Francisco and hike trails occasionally. I imagine the extra torque would come in handy there.

[MandatoryFun]

9 hours ago, plentora said:

Just find your preferred tire pressure - it is really important part.

Good to know. I will definitely play around with it after I get comfortable with a wheel.

[techyiam]

2 minutes ago, MandatoryFun said:

I'm coming from an escooter and getting an EUC to alleviate my fears of theft. I only make really quick trips into stores/restaurants because bike thefts are very common where I live. I'm really into the idea that I can just use the trolley handle on the Kingsong EUCs to go inside and nobody will probably bat an eye. So, I plan on doing mostly city riding to run errands. But I also plan to just ride for leisure and fun. Either one would suffice for that. I was slightly leaning towards the 16x because I visit San Francisco and hike trails occasionally. I imagine the extra torque would come in handy there.

My opinion is that because you only go on trails occasionally, I suspect you may appreciate the 18XL more overall. The 18XL is known to be a solid, reliable wheel, and is considered to be more comfortable and stable than the 16X. Once you start doing your errands, I suspect you would enjoy riding the 18XL more. Even after you have upgraded, there is a very good chance that you will still find the 18XL to be a reliable backup wheel.

[MandatoryFun]

7 hours ago, Mono said:

It would remain to be relatively uninformative, as braking distance depends more on the rider than on the wheel. This is what I have seen for the most comprehensive comparison (timing set to brake test results), which measured decelerations between 0.54g and 0.63g (a European norm is >0.35g and >0.5g for bicycles and cars, respectively).

Good point about the rider weight. Those results weren't what I expected at all. Thanks for sharing!

[MandatoryFun]

7 hours ago, Funky said:

At the end i went with 18xl just because of handle. As i need to carry my wheel daily up/down 3 floors of stairs. (Some days more than 2 times..) Doh if i had to choose again, i think i would have gone with 16x. As it's simply would have been more "fun" wheel. Sure it has less "max" speed. Sure it may wobble more at speed. But that 16x3" tire would let me ride more with speed over bumps. Same time 18xl offer very stabile ride at speed. Has bigger tire - meaning you feel less of road "buzz" and overall are amazing also.

18xl also offers more carry limit - as i'm 280lbs i also liked that.

I'm a lightweight weighing in at only 145lbs/66kgs and I don't really have to worry about stairs often since I live on the ground floor. It's so hard to choose because I want the stability but I also want that fun factor. I'm probably just going to go with whichever wheel shows up in decent shape on the used market first.

[Funky]

30 minutes ago, MandatoryFun said:

I'm a lightweight weighing in at only 145lbs/66kgs and I don't really have to worry about stairs often since I live on the ground floor. It's so hard to choose because I want the stability but I also want that fun factor. I'm probably just going to go with whichever wheel shows up in decent shape on the used market first.

Before i choose euc, i was looking at e-scooters. (Even rented them, to "test" ride.) I'm so happy that i choose euc in the end. Bigger tire eats up all that road buzz. More speed/range.

And frankly speaking euc is at least 5x times more fun than scooter. So getting which ever you will better off. 

Doh it has very big "learning" curve. Imagine when you were kid and first time rode bike without helper wheels. This gonna take time. Sure some people get going in hours, some in week time.

All i can say is that 18xl is amazing city cruiser in ~25mph(~40kph) speeds. It feels so stable. If you plan riding "slower" 16x also would be fine. (16x max safe speed is 28mph.)

 

(Little tip for "anti" wobble - ride like this ~~~~~~ going zig-zag. Putting weight "around" one feet, then other.) Check euc rider videos - they don't ride "straight".   If you ride completely straight, it's the fastest way to get speed wobble.)

[plentora]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

My opinion is that because you only go on trails occasionally, I suspect you may appreciate the 18XL more overall. The 18XL is known to be a solid, reliable wheel, and is considered to be more comfortable and stable than the 16X. Once you start doing your errands, I suspect you would enjoy riding the 18XL more. Even after you have upgraded, there is a very good chance that you will still find the 18XL to be a reliable backup wheel.

Well said. I think 18XL is a solid "base" for EUC, it has so many uses.

 

2 hours ago, Funky said:

(Little tip for "anti" wobble - ride like this ~~~~~~ going zig-zag. Putting weight "around" one feet, then other.) Check euc rider videos - they don't ride "straight".   If you ride completely straight, it's the fastest way to get speed wobble.)

I don't personally understand how zigzag decreases wobbling, for me it didn't help at all. I think the key is longer stance (dominat a bit back and non-dominant a bit forwards) and keeping even pressure on both feet. Also relaxing and letting the wheel to live its on small life helps too so there is no unnecessary tension to increase the wobble. But everyone figures it out, just need few hundred kilometers of ride (which accumulates very fast!).

But what comes to zigzag or I call it "slaloming" it is so fun to do. Cruising dead straight is boring, I slalom whenever possible on my 18XL.

Also what comes to learning; I compare learning EUC to learning skiing or snowboarding. Pretty much same amount of time to get "up and running" and same amount of time to achieve level where you can really enjoy and relax.

 

 

 

[Tawpie]

7 minutes ago, plentora said:

I don't personally understand how zigzag decreases wobbling

The commonly held belief is that slaloming/carving/zigzagging means you're transferring weight from pedal to pedal which doesn't give the 'system' time to establish the oscillation buildup that we call a wobble. Seems reasonable to me, and I do know that when wobbles start, a carve will damp them right down. Stance definitely plays a role, as does muscle development and not getting tensed up... all that comes with time!

Carviing is the best. It's the only way to go on pavement!

Edited August 7, 2022 by Tawpie

[Funky]

I haven't gotten any speed wobbles at all nowadays, while carving/zig~~zagging. (Even little bit of weight "shifting" helps. You don't need to go snowboarding.)

Simply go left/right over long distance. Touch one side of road and after ~50, ~100 meters touch other side of road. Or ride completely "straight" but little bit left/right ~5inch distance.

 

 

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

Seems reasonable to me, and I do know that when wobbles start, a carve will damp them right down.

What do you mean by "carve"? Turning one side fast? Or what? At beginning when i still got some wobbles, i normally "stretched" my whole body upwards. (Pulling whole body up in air.) That made the wobbles stop. Asking about "carve" maybe that works better and i could try out, if i get wobbles again.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Funky

[Tawpie]

For me 'carving' is a slalom back and forth... smooth. You can let the wheel run out to the sides while you stay in a straight line (requires hip), or be a skier and lean into each turn. Some object to the riders' choices in where this video was shot, you are warned. Posting is not meant to condemn or condone, only to illustrate!

 

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/0wQh0mSIluE 

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Tawpie

[mrelwood]

As was mentioned, the first thing to remember is that both the 18XL and the 16X are solid wheels, and there isn't really anything the other can do that the other can't. Both will give you enormous amounts of fun!

They are tough to choose from though. 2.5" and 3" wide tires behave fundamentally differently, although the 2.5” being 18” in diameter brings another aspect into the game.

The 16X will wobble easier, but it mainly belongs to only a certain part of the learning process. Once you learn how to relax, it doesn’t really matter anymore.

As was said, the 18XL is a cruiser while the 16X is more playful, though  less stable at speed.

 One important point is your size though. I’m 193cm/108kg, and while I like myself a 3” tire, the 18XL (18x2.5”) suits me clearly better. I just like how it handles, better than the 16X. But you are at the other end of the spectrum, so the difference in tire diameter is emphasized. Any 18” will feel like a slouch at first, maybe even overly stable, and will require more effort to accelerate and brake. That’s what makes 18” wheels great cruisers. But you might feel more at home with the 16X, especially if you ride mainly short trips. Then again, your trips will probably increase in length once you learn how much fun riding is!

17 hours ago, MandatoryFun said:

I do wish there was a compilation of braking distances for EUCs

The problem is that when measuring the braking distance on a scooter, you can hit full brakes and measure roughly the same braking distance repeatedly. On self-balancing vehicles you can’t. And if you measure one distance, you might still be able to lean back further and get a different reading.

 One thing remains a constant though: Larger diameter wheels brake slower, meaning, they require more effort to brake. But in the case of 18x2.5” vs 16x3”, the actual difference in outer tire diameter is only about an inch.

There is a clear difference in the wheels’ water ingress protection though. The 18XL is a closed bottle compared to the more open 16X. But the controller isn’t getting wet on the 16X either, unless you actually ride in the rain after having crashed and bent the shell slightly.

Btw, when buying a used 84V wheel, do not buy unless you can confirm that the wheel charges up at least to 83.2V!

[MandatoryFun]

35 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Btw, when buying a used 84V wheel, do not buy unless you can confirm that the wheel charges up at least to 83.2V!

I'm acutely aware that batteries are typically the most expensive component on PEVs. What battery percentage would 83.2V be?

[mrelwood]

23 minutes ago, MandatoryFun said:

I'm acutely aware that batteries are typically the most expensive component on PEVs. What battery percentage would 83.2V be?

Varies based on wheel model and firmware version. But probably 100%, which is why you need to check the voltage and not just the percent.

[MandatoryFun]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Varies based on wheel model and firmware version. But probably 100%, which is why you need to check the voltage and not just the percent.

Huh. Would not have known that. Thanks for pointing that out!

[Tawpie]

4 hours ago, MandatoryFun said:

What battery percentage would 83.2V be?

Pretty much every app will claim that's 100%. It's not quite.

Being unable to charge to (very close to) 84V is a sign of battery wear, the final charge voltage gets lower and lower as the battery wears down. If it won't charge above 82V, don't touch it with a 10' pole, or at least make sure the price allows for 1100USD to replace the batteries.

[plentora]

5 hours ago, Tawpie said:

For me 'carving' is a slalom back and forth... smooth. You can let the wheel run out to the sides while you stay in a straight line (requires hip), or be a skier and lean into each turn. Some object to the riders' choices in where this video was shot, you are warned. Posting is not meant to condemn or condone, only to illustrate!

Carving and slalom are a bit different things when skiing so it confuses me too what people mean by carving too.

I've understood that carving on EUC is the turn where you keep the wheel upright and lean over on other side. Slalom is the easier turning method where the wheel tilts.

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

he wheel charges up at least to 83.2V!

My wheel charges 83.4V as new and software says it is 100%.