Kingsong 16x vs 18XL as a first wheel

[MandatoryFun]

17 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

My guess is that you are riding with straight legs? Negotiating bumps is done with the knees, and a constant small bend helps keeping your center of gravity vertically level at road irregularities and surprise bumps.

Tilt the wheel and turn your upper body in the direction of the turn. Starting with the head, look where you plan to turn to. Shoulders and upper torso then follow the turn. In this video you can see how I first tilt the wheel which doesn't make me turn much, but as soon as I turn my upper body, the turn gets very tight. The video is made with a 18x3" tire which turns pretty much the same as a 16x3" one:

I have the tire pressure low because I read that it's easier to learn. For now, I think I'll gradually raise the pressure as it does seem more difficult to balance with a higher pressure.

I'm riding with knees bent but I'm probably stiffened up since I'm still nervous. I was aware of jumping but I didn't know about technique where you perform a jumping motion for bumps without actually leaving the pedals.

And thanks for the demonstration video! I did not even think about rotating my torso at all. I'm too preoccupied by with trying to maintain a more rigid posture.

I'm excited to give these a try!

[Tawpie]

You will find that higher pressures can make the wheel more skittish. Being harder, the tire tends to bounce more. And the additional pressure makes the tire pointer, which makes it turn easier.

I ride at 25 psi, but am quite a bit lighter than you. I do go off curbs, and bump jump up them, and off road at that pressure—haven't had a pinch flat or rim damage so far. For me it's what I like.

Especially when you're learning, and before you start doing curbs and stairs (not really recommended on a 16X, stairs tend to make the 16X blow fuses), people find lower pressure to be more forgiving. My suggestion would be to pump it up to 33+ and see how it feels. If you like it, it's a good pressure! If it feels too unstable and knife edge, let a little air out. Keep doing that until you're comfortable, and as you get more miles behind you try the sequence again.

There is some minimum pressure you'll need to stay above to avoid rim damage, but until you start doing curbs and jumps and potholes at speed keeping the pressure down tends to tamp down the squarely factor.

[Tawpie]

3 minutes ago, MandatoryFun said:

trying to maintain a more rigid posture.

As you get more comfortable, you'll be able to relax. But do try to relax. Most riders are pretty loose on the wheel—it actually helps in a lot of ways. Being tense is a recipe for wobbles, and if you're not loose a good bump can launch you clean off the pedals. Neither is particularly welcome.

[mrelwood]

13 minutes ago, MandatoryFun said:

I have the tire pressure low because I read that it's easier to learn.

It kind of is in some sense, but the 3" tire on the 16X is very stable compared to thinner tires anyway, so it's not at all bad at normal pressures either. The downside for having a "learner" pressure or "learner" anything is that you'll probably learn bad habits and harmful techniques that are a pain to re-learn out of. I think it's much better to use one's time and energy to only learn once.

 

13 minutes ago, MandatoryFun said:

I'm riding with knees bent but I'm probably stiffened up since I'm still nervous.

Just like @Tawpie wrote above, being relaxed is the only way to make the wheel behave. Maybe you could find a spot where there are several smallish bumps where you can try to keep your torso as level as possible by making your knees and ankles very soft and relaxed. So that your torso floats and follows a dead horizontal path while your legs are the cushy air suspension of a new luxury Mercedes Benz SUV.

But in order to do that your foot position must be good. If you are unsure of the position, level the rear end of your shoes with the rear end of the pedals. Being a smaller rider though, you might have to go further forward on the pedals. Try standing on the wheel while holding a pole or a wall, and try to feel if the wheel stays stationary if you completely relax your feet, ankles and shins. If it wants to move backwards, move forward half an inch and try again.

 

13 minutes ago, MandatoryFun said:

I'm too preoccupied by with trying to maintain a more rigid posture.

Watch any advanced rider on YT and you'll see that they all move around freely with their bodies. There's nothing rigid about a good riding posture, it's all about being relaxed and free to move about.

 

[MandatoryFun]

33 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

My suggestion would be to pump it up to 33+ and see how it feels. If you like it, it's a good pressure! If it feels too unstable and knife edge, let a little air out. Keep doing that until you're comfortable, and as you get more miles behind you try the sequence again.

 

11 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The downside for having a "learner" pressure or "learner" anything is that you'll probably learn bad habits and harmful techniques that are a pain to re-learn out of. I think it's much better to use one's time and energy to only learn once.

Thanks. I guess I'll play around with higher tire pressures then.

Regarding a more relaxed stance, I'm squeezing the wheel between my legs. Should I relax that too?

17 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

But in order to do that your foot position must be good. If you are unsure of the position, level the rear end of your shoes with the rear end of the pedals. Being a smaller rider though, you might have to go further forward on the pedals. Try standing on the wheel while holding a pole or a wall, and try to feel if the wheel stays stationary if you completely relax your feet, ankles and shins. If it wants to move backwards, move forward half an inch and try again.

Also a great tip! This never even crossed my mind. I have my foot centered and I noticed the wheel moves backwards more easily. I'll move a bit forward then. Might also help with gaining the momentum for free mounts because I can't get going fast enough.

[mrelwood]

 

3 hours ago, MandatoryFun said:

Regarding a more relaxed stance, I'm squeezing the wheel between my legs. Should I relax that too?

Absolutely you should relax! You're not squeezing the steering wheel on a car either. It's unrealistic to expect your non EUC-trained legs to have any kind of stamina for squeezing the wheel. The only way to be able to ride reasonable distances and to keep the wheel in control for more than 10 seconds is to be relaxed all the way from head to toe. Use as little muscle as you absolutely require to stay standing, nothing more.

Besides, you must be able to tilt the wheel left and right. If your feet are tightly against the wheel shell, there's no room for you to tilt the wheel.

Stand on solid ground, and think how you would stand if you'd have to stand right there for half an hour. That's how relaxed you should be on the wheel.

 

3 hours ago, MandatoryFun said:

I have my foot centered and I noticed the wheel moves backwards more easily.

That's why you have the tendency to wobble. After all, your ankles are not centered on your feet, and ankles are where your whole weight is.

(You're ankles shouldn't be centered either though, since you'd have no chance of leaning back to brake. Stand somewhere in between.)

3 hours ago, MandatoryFun said:

Might also help with gaining the momentum for free mounts because I can't get going fast enough.

I'm sure it will!

[rcgldr]

On 8/19/2022 at 10:42 PM, MandatoryFun said:

I did not even think about rotating my torso at all.

Rotating your upper body requires you tilt the EUC inwards to prevent it from yawing outwards in response to rotating your upper body inwards. You need to learn to tilt steer before you try body movements to assist with turns.

22 hours ago, mrelwood said:

After all, your ankles are not centered on your feet, and ankles are where your whole weight is.

The average person stands with their center of mass between toes and heels:

 

[mrelwood]

9 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Rotating your upper body requires you tilt the EUC inwards to prevent it from yawing outwards in response to rotating your upper body inwards. You need to learn to tilt steer before you try body movements to assist with turns.

You don't need to tilt the wheel at all to steer with the upper body! It works even with dead straight legs. I believe it has to do with countersteering, as you twist your torso to the left, your lower body counter-steers to the right which initiates the turning process.

 

9 hours ago, rcgldr said:

The average person stands with their center of mass between toes and heels:

I'd have to ask for a source to properly refute it, but for now I'll just say that I sure don't. I don't think the image you posted is very precise with the location. "Between toes and heel", of course, that's the only way to stay upright. But centered? I don't think so.

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by mrelwood

[MandatoryFun]

10 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Rotating your upper body requires you tilt the EUC inwards to prevent it from yawing outwards in response to rotating your upper body inwards. You need to learn to tilt steer before you try body movements to assist with turns.

The average person stands with their center of mass between toes and heels

I was trying to learn how to turn 180 at the end of a tight path. Turning with a slight tilt around wider corners was pretty easy. I just thought I had to tilt more but I couldn't get the wheel to turn sharply. @mrelwood 's video guide was made it click for me. I've just been focusing on watching what the wheel does in Youtuber videos. I believed it was the tilt of the wheel that made it turn sharp but it really seems like the other way around now having done it.

That said, I'm now having difficulty exiting a sharp turn at a consistent angle. I'm not ping-ponging the wheel between my legs while going straight anymore. But exiting a sharp turn has reintroduced that problem since I'm stiffening up in the those turns again. I'm sure it's just a matter of getting more comfortable with practice.

I don't know anything about the center mass but having seen that picture makes me wonder at what angle everybody is pointing their toes. I have wanted to bring it up this subject. I've been pointing my toes straight thus far but I imagine people point their toes out slightly for a wider stance and a bit more stability.

Edited August 21, 2022 by MandatoryFun

[MandatoryFun]

@mrelwoodThanks again for the tip about placing my feet slightly forward! Definitely helps with the initial acceleration. I could not tilt forward enough to start on a hill before but now it's pretty much the same after the adjustment.

[mrelwood]

I'm really glad to hear all that!

The way I read it is that the way you make the turns has now changed quite a bit. I'm sure it only takes time to make it feel natural enough for you to be able to relax. At least now you know what to aim towards!

As you try to find the optimal standing position, do remember that to stand forward and make acceleration easier makes braking worse, and vice versa. I think at this point it's a good idea to do a few very short medium strength brakings and accelerations after each launch to get a feel of the balance of how confident you feel doing each. Braking feels too sketchy? Stand slightly more back. Acceleration is  unstable or difficult? Stand more forward.

Edited August 21, 2022 by mrelwood

[MandatoryFun]

43 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Braking feels too sketchy? Stand slightly more back. Acceleration is  unstable or difficult? Stand more forward.

I moved my foot forward about 1/2 an inch from the center and both braking and accelerating are just fine. I'm just working on harder braking since I'm sure I'll need it sooner rather than later. Any situations that make me nervous makes me tense. I accidentally went 20mph/32kph downhill (somehow bypassing the top speed limiter of 20 kph without any tiltback) and I ended up braking at maybe a medium strength. I got my first taste of braking wobbles on the 16x which was a bit terrifying. I ended up crouching to negate the wobble which seems to work. I can't imagine the foot stance having much to do with that. Again, I think I'm too tense. I have the day off work tomorrow so I'm gonna ride around park paths and get more comfortable on the wheel.

[rcgldr]

17 hours ago, rcgldr said:

The average person stands with their center of mass between toes and heels:

 

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

You don't need to tilt the wheel at all to steer with the upper body! It works even with dead straight legs. I believe it has to do with countersteering, as you twist your torso to the left, your lower body counter-steers to the right which initiates the turning process.

I'd have to ask for a source to properly refute it, but for now I'll just say that I sure don't. I don't think the image you posted is very precise with the location. "Between toes and heel", of course, that's the only way to stay upright. But centered? I don't think so.

 

Yes, that is counter-steering , but if the issue is a beginner is falling to the left, then twisting the upper torso to the left counter-steers the EUC outwards increasing the fall, it's not a method used for balance but instead to make tighter turns using a combination of yaw and tilt steering for experienced riders. To remain vertical and moving straight ahead while twisting the torso while approaching a turn in order to setup a tighter turn, then tilting the EUC inwards while twisting the upper torso is used. I recall a video of this used for making a tight u-turn on a sidewalk, where the riders twists and leans backwards just before making a tight u-turn on a sidewalk, but haven't found that video again.

The diagram with the two feet does show the center of mass too far forwards. For most people it's within 10% of centered between center of balls of feet and center of heels. You can fold up a towel or carpet and stand with your heels on the carpet and balls of feet on a scale to get an idea of how much weight you have on the balls of your feet, which will probably be around 40% or a bit more. If you stand with your knees bent, the weight will shift a bit forwards, but probably still be less than 50%. Most of the how to ride EUC videos,  such as Jeff from EUCO, Kuji Rolls, Wrong Way, ..., recommend beginners start with feet centered, then adjust to rider preference once the rider has learn to ride reasonably well. Most of the youtube riders do have their feet centered or close to centered (within 1/2 inch).

Edited August 22, 2022 by rcgldr

[mrelwood]

 

9 hours ago, rcgldr said:

it's not a method used for balance

Absolutely it's not for balancing. It's a turning technique.

9 hours ago, rcgldr said:

but instead to make tighter turns

A combination of yaw, tilt, and upper body twist can be used at largely different speeds and turn angles. None of them is limited to one situation only. The unique riding style of each rider is made of the different combinations and ratios of these techniques.

9 hours ago, rcgldr said:

The diagram with the two feet does show the center of mass too far forwards.

I agree.

9 hours ago, rcgldr said:

For most people it's within 10% of centered between center of balls of feet and center of heels.

Sounds about right. And that's about where the ankle starts.

 

9 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Most of the how to ride EUC videos,  such as Jeff from EUCO, Kuji Rolls, Wrong Way, ..., recommend beginners start with feet centered

Which is a bad idea, no matter who and how many say it. I have advised several people who struggle with various steps of learning to stand more forward, which has helped them to get over their obstacle.

9 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Most of the youtube riders do have their feet centered or close to centered (within 1/2 inch).

Most of the YT riders ride like crazy and behave erratically in traffic. I don't think the amount of YT riders is a good measure of anything really.

1/2 inch makes all the difference in the world. Actually 1/2" forward from centered could be the optimal place to start from.

[rcgldr]

On 8/21/2022 at 3:33 PM, rcgldr said:

The diagram with the two feet does show the center of mass too far forwards. For most people it's within 10% of centered between center of balls of feet and center of heels. 

That should have been within 10% of centered between center of heels and the center between balls of feet and center pads of toes (people use toes for balance).

18 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Sounds about right. And that's about where the ankle starts.

Ankle bone is about 17% in front of center of heels, and balance would be difficult. Most people can stand on their "toes" (balls of feet and toes), but attempting to stand on heels will lead to falling backwards and having to step back. The center of mass needs to be well ahead of the ankle bone to provide more range for the center of mass to vary as a person balances.

Wrong Way and other riders stand on their "toes" with their toes at the front edge of the pedals, and their heels hanging off the back and lifted off the pedals when doing incline tests on EUCs if not using pads, to get maximum forwards tilt on the pedals, an example being able to balance on "toes" while on an EUC.

 

On 8/21/2022 at 3:33 PM, rcgldr said:

Most of the how to ride EUC videos,  such as Jeff from EUCO, Kuji Rolls, Wrong Way, ..., recommend beginners start with feet centered, then adjust to rider preference once the rider has learn to ride reasonably well. Most of the youtube riders do have their feet centered or close to centered (within 1/2 inch).

 

18 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Which is a bad idea, no matter who and how many say it. I have advised several people who struggle with various steps of learning to stand more forward, which has helped them to get over their obstacle. Actually 1/2" forward from centered could be the optimal place to start from.

Part of this is what is considered "centered". A common definition is having front of toes and back of heels (actual feet, not shoes), equal distant from edges of pedals. A less common definition is having center of balls of feet and center of heels equal distant from edges of pedals, which is about 1/4" forward of toes and heels definition.

I started off and continue to ride with my feet centered without issue. I was lucky in that I never struggled when learning to ride, part of which was due the sequence of learning.  Doing the normal beginner drills (rock back and forth); support to mount and launch; arm flailing (flail left to steer right and vice versa) for balance and control at slow speed (3 to 5 mph); finding out that my V8F essentially became self-balancing at around 6 to 8 mph, which is when I learned to tilt steer, and waiting till day 5 after I could ride reasonably well before I tried free mount (got it on third try after compensating for my only time on a grassy field). As for the arm flailing at slow speeds, it's commonly taught for pedaled unicycles, but not so much for EUCs, although a lot of beginners will extend their arms for balance.

The only video I've seen of someone struggle to learn was in the Electro Heads video, but foot placement wasn't the issue. The guy that could already ride a pedaled unicycle didn't have any issues and was able to ride one legged after a few passes. The other guy struggled until they switched to a Z10, which is much easier to ride than most EUCs (mostly due to 4 inch wide tire, becoming stable at 5 mph or less).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-dDOxvmzvQ

Other than not leaning forwards enough when first learning to free mount, I'm not sure why having feet forwards would help. Jeff from EUCO does have his feet a bit forwards, but less than 1/2 inch forwards, and I'm not sure why. When learning to free mount, a rider can swing their arms forwards as they step on to help with the launch. Having feet forwards means the shins are more vertical and there's less twisting leverage between pedals and upper pads to dampen out any wiggles or wobbles, and feet forwards means less maximum braking tilt input on the pedals. If using power pads, then I'm not sure foot position matter much other than comfort.

For the riders that were struggling, how did moving their feet forwards help?

Edited August 23, 2022 by rcgldr

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, rcgldr said:

That should have been within 10% of centered between center of heels and the center between balls of feet and center pads of toes (people use toes for balance).

Like you wrote, there are several different "centered" positions.

My feet are 28cm long. Big toe pad to heel center: 23cm. Ball of feet center to heel center: 17cm. Heel rear to heel center: 4cm.

My shoes are 32cm long, with the rear end about 1.5cm from my foot, and front end 2.5cm from my foot.

My pedals are 25cm long.

Leg pads can be and are positioned at will, so they bear no much relation to the discussion about foot positioning.

If I center my shoe on the pedal, the axle center is at 52% of my full foot length, which is 46% of my toepad-heelpad length, 53% of my toepad-ball center to heelpad length, and 62% of my ball-heelpad length.

My normal riding position is 2.5cm (1") forwards from having the shoes centered. This brings the above positions to 43% / 37% / 43% / 50%.

This is why I believe in the ball-of-foot to heel centering. Toes can only hold balance for a few seconds, they are not suitable for being used for a prolonged riding posture.

Since shoes vary so much in design with many shoes nowadays having an extended rear section (without providing any help with balance), centering a shoe is never a precise tip.

5 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Ankle bone is about 17% in front of center of heels

I only mentioned the front of my ankle, which is 53% of the ball-heel centers in riding posture.

5 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Most people can stand on their "toes" (balls of feet and toes)

The problem with using a balanced solid ground posture while riding is that you have no choice but to tense your feet, ankles and calves in order to do that. It's well known that tense muscles equals wobbles, foot cramps and aches, and tired legs. While a normal position to stand on the ground does this as well, it's not a position you can maintain for an hour straight. Which riding often is.

 

5 hours ago, rcgldr said:

when doing incline tests

No beginner that I've been instructing are doing 45 degree incline tests. How  the professionals stand while doing that has no bearing on how beginners should learn to position their feet.

Besides, all YT riders (that I've seen) use massive pads, which means they can stand wherever they want and learn to take balance from the pads. Again, bears no relation to what should be recommended to struggling beginners.

Duf has a huge amount of EUC miles behind him. But he barely ever meets an incline where her lives. In one of his videos here was doing incline tests, but struggling even in a moderately shallow incline. He has long feet, and his standard position is roughly a centered shoe. To me it was obvious from the video that he was no longer stable on the wheel because he was standing too far back. An inch forward and the shallow incline would've been no problem at all.

5 hours ago, rcgldr said:

A less common definition is having center of balls of feet and center of heels equal distant from edges of pedals, which is about 1/4" forward of toes and heels definition.

In my case it's 1.5cm, which is 5/8".

5 hours ago, rcgldr said:

I started off and continue to ride with my feet centered without issue.

Feet extremities, or which center are you talking about?

The reason why I brought up the foot positioning was because the op was struggling, and fighting with wobbles and instability. And my tips helped him.

 

5 hours ago, rcgldr said:

The only video I've seen of someone struggle to learn

I don't see why anyone would make a YT video out of it just for the fun of it. The beginners that need help usually have to be asked a few times before even they are ready to publish a video of their struggles.

 

5 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Other than not leaning forwards enough

Which a better foot positioning also makes much easier, and even automatic.

 

5 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Having feet forwards means the shins are more vertical and there's less twisting leverage between pedals and upper pads to dampen out any wiggles or wobbles

Wobbles are not dampened with pads. They are prevented by a relaxed riding posture in the first place.

5 hours ago, rcgldr said:

 less maximum braking tilt input on the pedals.

That it does. Which is why the position must be balanced between having a relaxed posture and a sufficient braking force. Which I also gave tips for how to test.

5 hours ago, rcgldr said:

If using power pads, then I'm not sure foot position matter much other than comfort.

Which is a crucial measure in itself.

5 hours ago, rcgldr said:

For the riders that were struggling, how did moving their feet forwards help?

A local rider was doing pretty well, and already joined our longer rides. But he couldn't ride up even relatively shallow inclines, as he repeatedly lost control of the wheel. Half an inch forwards and the issue was instantly gone.

Seems that he already had enough muscle stamina to calmly cruise on level ground with centered shoes (which I've never been able to do without having a lot of breaks), but it didn't take the centered shoe position more than an ordinary shallow incline to force him to bail. A better foot position fixes that instantly, no learning required.

[rcgldr]

15 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Part of this is what is considered "centered". A common definition is having front of toes and back of heels (actual feet, not shoes), equal distant from edges of pedals. A less common definition is having center of balls of feet and center of heels equal distant from edges of pedals, which is about 1/4" forward of toes and heels definition.

 

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Like you wrote, there are several different "centered" positions. This is why I believe in the ball-of-foot to heel centering. Centering a shoe is never a precise tip.

The how to ride videos and my prior comments mention centered feet, not shoes. I should have clarified though. I assume that a rider would compensate for shoes. My low top tennis shoes are "centered", but my low top hiking shoes are offset forwards, so I need to have the hiking shoes 3/4" forwards of centered in order for my feet be centered.

 

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

In my case it's 1.5cm, which is 5/8". Feet extremities, or which center are you talking about?

Center of pressure of ball of foot (directly under the ball of foot bone) to center of pressure of heel is a bit over 1/4 inch forwards of front of toe to back of heel on my feet. 

 

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

A local rider was doing pretty well, and already joined our longer rides. But he couldn't ride up even relatively shallow inclines, as he repeatedly lost control of the wheel. Half an inch forwards and the issue was instantly gone.

Seems that he already had enough muscle stamina to calmly cruise on level ground with centered shoes (which I've never been able to do without having a lot of breaks)

I ride a V8F, and although I'm 70 years old, I still work out with free weights and have reasonably strong calf muscles. I weigh 187 lbs, but can calf raise 400 lbs for 12 reps fairly easily. It doesn't take a lot of pedal pressure to go up or down a 10% (6 degree) slope on the V8F, and similar to other Inmotion wheels, it auto-leans the rider and auto-tilts the EUC for inclines and declines without the rider having to compensate for transitions. Chooch Tech noted this ("it's so easy"), when doing an early review with Chang of the V12 on a 30 degree slope. You can see the auto-tilt (pedals tilted a bit forwards for incline, a bit backwards for decline) at work in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiVooGohtTs&t=225s

I did feel calf pain if I rode for 20 minutes or so, but moving feet forwards didn't help. What helped was switching from tennis shoes with soft soles (almost like riding barefoot) to low top hiking shoes with stiff soles and more cushioning on the inside. 

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by rcgldr