Kingsong 16x vs 18XL as a first wheel

[mrelwood]

 

1 hour ago, plentora said:

I've understood that carving on EUC is the turn where you keep the wheel upright and lean over on other side. Slalom is the easier turning method where the wheel tilts.

At speed the EUC turns mainly based on the cone effect, meaning the amount of sideways tilt. You can’t really separate the turn and tilt like you can at walking speeds. The faster you go, the more the rider needs to hang over to the side while turning, which makes the wheel look clearly more upright. Tire width and profile has a huge effect on this.

 I’m not sure if a clear distinction exists for the word “carving”. My suggestion: Unneeded/unnecessary turning continuously between left and right.

 

[MandatoryFun]

On 8/7/2022 at 5:05 PM, mrelwood said:

Btw, when buying a used 84V wheel, do not buy unless you can confirm that the wheel charges up at least to 83.2V!

Managed to grab a lightly used 16x. It charges up to 83.6V so the battery seems fine. Thanks for the help everyone!

Now onto the learning process. I can already see why a smaller wheel is more beginner friendly. But I am committed to figuring this thing out.

[Tawpie]

54 minutes ago, MandatoryFun said:

Managed to grab a lightly used 16x. It charges up to 83.6V so the battery seems fine. Thanks for the help everyone!

Now onto the learning process. I can already see why a smaller wheel is more beginner friendly. But I am committed to figuring this thing out.

Congratulations and good choice! (I say that because I learned on a 16X as well). You already know there's scads of information and tips on learning so I won't add anything other than: look where you want to go—down isn't it, stop after 30 minutes to let sleep work its magic, and be stubborn.

Oh. Start saving for wheel number 2.

and for 3 as well. Can't be helped, there is no known cure for the disease.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Tawpie

[MandatoryFun]

32 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

look where you want to go—down isn't it, stop after 30 minutes to let sleep work its magic, and be stubborn.

My shins currently can't take more than 30 minutes anyway. Haha. I knew it wasn't going to be easy but it's harder than I expected.

Time to dig into tips before additional EUCs.

[thanksbojack]

great noob thread, very informative!

[Funky]

Yeah at beginning its harder. I at start tough: How the hell you ride this thing.. WTF!!!  My biggest problem was mounting the darn thing. As soon as i placed my second feet, i lost balance and fell over. Took me 4 days to start going. Each day i spent around ~15-20min trying. Could not ride any distance, because mounting.. 4th day i simply hopped on with both feet and leaned really hard forwards. That got my going. Before that i wasn't leaning enough, that's why i lose balance, because wheel wasn't going anywhere.  After 5 mins i was already going in circles, left/right without problems. Ridding gave me no problems at all, was going ~20kph the first day. (Didn't have protective gear yet, so i didn't go faster.)

[meepmeepmayer]

This is great advice! Too slow = you never get going. One needs to do a leap of faith and lean in hard (well, for a new rider) and then suddenly you're fast (well, for a new rider) and stable and everything works. Mounting comes later, just use a wall/pole in the mean time.

[Funky]

20 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

This is great advice! Too slow = you never get going. One needs to do a leap of faith and lean in hard (well, for a new rider) and then suddenly you're fast (well, for a new rider) and stable and everything works. Mounting comes later, just use a wall/pole in the mean time.

Didn't help that i learned on grass/dirt without any "information videos" watching and no wall/pole to hold on.  Doh when i went on pavement/asphalt for the first time, it felt so easy, so effortless to ride. It felt like i was gliding.  

Yup the leap of leaning did the trick for me. Heck if i would have leaned enough the first day, i would have been riding already in first 10 mins. But nah i was hopping on/off the first 3 days..  I simply could not get the wheel going forwards. (Doh i knew, i need to fall "forwards" to start going.)

[meepmeepmayer]

Grass is officially evil when learning to ride! "I'm so soft and cushy, start with me, how could that not make sense!" it entices you into its Siren-like high-rolling-resistance trap And then you're ****ed.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Grass is officially evil when learning to ride! "I'm so soft and cushy, start with me, how could that not make sense!" it entices you into its Siren-like high-rolling-resistance trap And then you're ****ed.

Okey it wasn't like "green-green" grass, more like forest dirt paths and like that. So we (I and my dad learned the same way.) don't damage the wheel. Scrapes and what not.. Also that one belly flop that i did felt much better on dirt, than it would have on asphalt. Later when we somewhat could "ride" we went from dirt paths to short green grass. Yes it where bumpy ride, that's why later going on asphalt it felt like i was gliding.  So smooth.

2 weeks later i bought my 18xl. The first day i went right for same dirt roads, later 10 mins i was going already gravel roads, and then asphalt. (I got dropped in forest and i rode home.)  Still remember how i rode over apple size rock and whole wheel went sideways and i did Michael Jackson knee poze. Doh didn't fall. 

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/89/2d/51/892d5161b92c22c008cce1381f1bba15.jpg

[MandatoryFun]

10 hours ago, Funky said:

i simply hopped on with both feet and leaned really hard forwards. That got my going.

 

10 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

One needs to do a leap of faith and lean in hard (well, for a new rider) and then suddenly you're fast (well, for a new rider) and stable and everything works.

I guess I'll try leaning in more for practice. Thanks for the tips guys!

And I was initially planning to learn on grass but after looking around on the forum, I could see that most people recommended against that. I'm glad I didn't given how much I'm wobbling at slow speeds. I'm gonna try to find a tennis court so I could use a fence later this weekend. Until then, I'm just gonna try to build up the muscle memory on the wheel.

[meepmeepmayer]

Make sure your tire pressure is high enough, too. Some wheels are delivered with pretty deflated tires. You wouldn't know it by pinching the tire, but when you stand on the wheel, someone else can clearly see that you have a flat tire. Of course that is no good for learning.

[MandatoryFun]

49 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Make sure your tire pressure is high enough

That's one of the first things I did after I got it. I didn't even have to change it because I was planning on using the tire at 25 psi because I don't weigh much.

[rcgldr]

On 8/6/2022 at 9:13 PM, RamonatheCat said:

In my experience the 18xl wobbled less as it had a bigger tire. 16x

The key difference is the 2.5 inch wide tire on the 18XL has less camber response to tilt than the 3 inch wide tire on the 16X, or the 3 inch wide tire on an S18. The 18XL has to be tilted more to turn, but this also means it's less prone to wobble.

On 8/7/2022 at 10:38 AM, Funky said:

you ride completely straight, it's the fastest way to get speed wobble.)

Probably 90% of Duf's videos and most of Marty Backe's videos are of them riding straight without any wobble issues. In Duf's case, his legs are so bow legged that he can't use the upper pads, so he's riding just using the pedals. Duf lowers the tire pressure to avoid wobbles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H0JWVWgOVM&t=176s

 

[mrelwood]

Yup, anything slower than running speed is an advanced skill. Worry about that later on.

If you wobble at low speeds, you could be standing too far back. If your weight is at the balls of your feet, you'll be tense which leads to wobbles and fast exhaustion.

Watching YT guides can make the learning process many many times faster!

[Funky]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Yup, anything slower than running speed is an advanced skill. Worry about that later on.

How ridding at low walking speeds are advanced??? Most people do that at learning stage? And at least for me it's same as riding at speed - no problems at all. And i personally never had. 

I enjoy riding right at people asses, who block the path at walking speed and say "Could i pass please? - Thanks". And then speed away, as they look at me as alien.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

Most people do that at learning stage? And at least for me it's same as riding at speed - no problems at all. And i personally never had. 

I enjoy riding right at people asses, who block the path at walking speed and say

Nope. You have natural talent then. I believe for most people, it's a learnt skill that comes with further practice and additional time.

If you can ride at 4 km/h, or below, you would be considered above average for a new rider,  IMO.

[plentora]

3 hours ago, Funky said:

How ridding at low walking speeds are advanced??? Most people do that at learning stage? And at least for me it's same as riding at speed - no problems at all. And i personally never had.

Same here, walking speed is fine for me too and I've been riding for 1 month / 800km so far. I didn't think it as a special skill, seems quite normal to do.

 

 

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, plentora said:

Same here, walking speed is fine for me too and I've been riding for 1 month / 800km so far. I didn't think it as a special skill, seems quite normal to do.

You guys are so lucky. That means you can come to a Stop Sign or an intersection obscured by objectives, scan for traffic, and go if clear, without having to put your feet down.

[plentora]

21 minutes ago, techyiam said:

You guys are so lucky. That means you can come to a Stop Sign or an intersection obscured by objectives, scan for traffic, and go if clear, without having to put your feet down.

If there are objectives on the way, I cannot see through them even I drive slowly

 

[Funky]

32 minutes ago, techyiam said:

You guys are so lucky. That means you can come to a Stop Sign or an intersection obscured by objectives, scan for traffic, and go if clear, without having to put your feet down.

I'm gonna be a little stinker.

Today i was going over train tracks and i saw that red light was blinking, so i started riding at complete crawl speed. (So i don't need to stop and wait..) Same speed as old grannys go without any problems. Doh i noticed that you need to keep balancing harder.. As wheel wanted to go left/right more. (Same feeling as riding over very loose sand. - Something like beach sand.)

For me the hardest part was mounting and start going. As i didn't lean enough forwards at first. (Wheel didn't want to go forwards..) Doh ~2-3 week later i didn't even look at pedals, where i place my feet. I normally "fix" my feet position while riding, moving one leg forwards/backwards.

Yeah i also don't ride a lot, almost year have passed and i have put in about ~600km so far.

 

Yeah i don't put my feet down anywhere. Even at road intersections. I simply slow down - look forwards first, then back behind me and go. (Helps that i live in "ghost" town.. Meaning there is almost no traffic.) Doh time to time i need to completely stop, as car is coming right there.. Could go in small circle, but - meh.. Don't wanna.  Better stop and put one foot down.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Funky

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, plentora said:

If there are objectives on the way, I cannot see through them even I drive slowly

In the scenario I was thinking of, the whole point was to get around the objects so you can see unobstructed. 

For example, you are in an alley coming out onto a side street. The fences and the hedges of the corner houses would obscure your view of the pedestrian traffic on the side walk and the traffic on the side street. 

So you would ride right up to the edge of the sidewalk, even with the fences and hedges. Now you can see without the fences and hedges obscuring your view. If you have the balance, you don't need to put your foot down. 

Edited August 18, 2022 by techyiam

[rcgldr]

On 8/17/2022 at 11:50 PM, mrelwood said:

anything slower than running speed is an advanced skill.

My V8F is stable at 6 to 8 mph, and I suspect most EUCs are stable at around 8 mph, requiring little or no balance corrections.

For slower speeds, extending arms and arm flailing | yaw steering (flail left to steer right and vice versa) is almost instinctive for most beginners. After about 20 minutes of the normal beginner drills, using support to mount, rock back and forth, short runs, I ventured away from a screened fence and was able to do laps around a tennis court at 3 to 5 mph using arm flailing on my first attempt. My wife took a video of me on day 2, probably about 40 minutes of total riding time at this point, essentially the same as day 1. From the video you can see times where I'm going slow, maybe a bit less than 3 mph. Until I saw the video, I didn't realize I was hunched over and corrected that after seeing the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPyy84EThmM

On day 3, I moved to a long straight, still using support to mount and launch, and to my surprise I found my V8F became stable and self-balancing at 6 mph to 8 mph, where I no longer had to make any balance corrections, allowing me to relax my arms. Leaning forwards | backwards to accelerate | brake wasn't an issue. Then it was onto tilt steering (inner foot down, outer foot up), first to see how the V8F would respond, then weaves, then large radius turns. A few days later I did my first free mount (no support), and got it on my third try after compensating for my only time on a grassy field. My wife took a video on day 10, at night, and from the headlight beam, you can see how stable the V8F is at about 8 mph where I can relax.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keDvRMScO1g

For me learning to coordinate how much to lean versus how much to tilt the EUC depending on speed and turning radius took about a month (about 30 minutes a day, 4 or 5 days a week), and continued to improve over the next two months. I can now tilt steer at lower speeds, probably down to around 3 mph, but slower than that, and I yaw steer instead (or yaw and tilt steer).

Edited August 19, 2022 by rcgldr

[MandatoryFun]

I'm now able to free mount and ride at decent speeds (above 5mph/8kph). I've hit the speed limiter but I'm fine with leaving it on for now. Thank you all for the tips on leaning! That was definitely the key. Slow speed riding is definitely difficult as some of you have mentioned but I'm sure that will come with time and experience.

I have some more newbie questions for you all. I've gone over some bumps and noticed the wheel bounce afterwards. I didn't like the feeling so I increased the tire pressure from about 22 psi to 27 psi to see if that would help. The wheel felt immediately felt different. It was more rigid and transferred the impact to me. I ended up falling off immediately after going over the first bump with the tire new pressure. I only weigh 140lbs/63.5kg so I'm wondering what tire pressure is recommended. Should I just lower it again?

Also, any tips on low speed turning? I can make wider turns at speed but I end up dismounting when I try to turn at low speeds. I tilt the wheel in the direction I want to turn but I end up rocking the wheel back and forth between my legs when I come out of the turn. I can't handle the rocking so I lose control the direction and have to dismount.

[mrelwood]

 

59 minutes ago, MandatoryFun said:

I increased the tire pressure from about 22 psi to 27 psi

Those are both pretty low pressures. I would generally pump the 16X to 33-38 psi. That would be the "medium" pressure range for a 16x3" tire. Although:

59 minutes ago, MandatoryFun said:

I only weigh 140lbs/63.5kg

That does change things. I'd still keep it at 26-30 psi though.

 

59 minutes ago, MandatoryFun said:

I ended up falling off immediately after going over the first bump with the tire new pressure.

My guess is that you are riding with straight legs? Negotiating bumps is done with the knees, and a constant small bend helps keeping your center of gravity vertically level at road irregularities and surprise bumps.

Here's an old video I made as a over-emphasized demonstration of a one technique for riding over curbs and upwards bumps:

 

There are of course other techniques as well. Here Jon demonstrates how to pop-jump the wheel up from a curb. Timestamped:

 

A third one would be to just ride through the curb or bump with very soft knees, and let wheel push your knees to a steeper bend when it gets up the curb or bump. I don't usually like to use this technique though, since it relies on the wheel catching up to you. I much rather keep the bump fully in control.

 

59 minutes ago, MandatoryFun said:

Also, any tips on low speed turning?

Tilt the wheel and turn your upper body in the direction of the turn. Starting with the head, look where you plan to turn to. Shoulders and upper torso then follow the turn. In this video you can see how I first tilt the wheel which doesn't make me turn much, but as soon as I turn my upper body, the turn gets very tight. The video is made with a 18x3" tire which turns pretty much the same as a 16x3" one:

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by mrelwood