S18 - only 45km range? Last 30% only last 5km!?!

[FinRider]

On 6/20/2022 at 5:16 PM, reach said:

However, real life interestingly tells a different story: electric vehicles (I have one) pretty much give you what the battery capacity is telling.

Nice info in this thread! I just wanted to share a quick comment that these battery related "issues" are not unique to EUC's. I have a plugin outlander PHEV, which has a rated battery capacity of 12 kWh. I recently upgraded my home charger with one that actually measures and when the car has a depleted battery (0 km range) and I charge it to full, then I have charged a total of 7-8 kWh. In other words, the "rated" capacity may be 12 kWh but the usable capacity is only max 8 kWh.

The same goes with EUC's, which is why it is so hard to compare a KS wheel to an inmition or a Gotway. They can all be depleted to different levels and use different pack configurations. Best is to compare model to model to understand if your wheel is underperforming.

I love my S-18, but I think we can all agree that the battery is too small. I wish KS would listen and make a S-18L or XL version. From the DIY projects that some have been doing we all know it is doable and that the frame can fit larger packs.

[meepmeepmayer]

2 hours ago, FinRider said:

I love my S-18, but I think we can all agree that the battery is too small. I wish KS would listen and make a S-18L or XL version.

S22?

[Funky]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

S22?

[Tawpie]

I just have to imagine S18XL vs S20/22 debate went on at KS and that it was fierce. I am still waiting for my S22 and the primary reason I ordered it was because I prefer to ride to and from the trails, not load a wheel into the car. If I was more ok with the car+wheel trip combo, my S18 offers plenty of off-road-only range… I'm plumb exhausted by 20 miles of single track. I'm probably rare, but I don't use the speed I have and I honestly won't need the extra suspension travel of the S22. I just needed a little more range to cover the rural and fire roads on the way to and from the single track... 1110 wH just isn't enough to allow me to just go out for 5 hours without any planning. But that comes as no surprise!

[ffontana]

On 6/12/2022 at 9:00 PM, reach said:

Hi,

Today I rode my S18 for the first time from 100 to 0% battery. As much as I love the S18 this was a very disappointing experience:

not having a battery indicator, after some 35km I checked the app for the first time, just out of curiosity and was pretty shocked to see only 47% left. 

5km later, after 40km I reached 30% battery and it started to beep and tiltback constantly and early. Apparently it beeps also when I'm going slow, as a reminder. After 44km I was at 15% and some 500m later it was at 5%. It tilted back until I stopped. When holding the wheel on the handle it slowly, really slow motion tilted forward and backward and forward and backward. Even while walking it. I shut it down, switched it on again and then I could continue to ride home the missing 300m at walking pace with the wheel constantly peeping.

Back home I waited 1 hour before I plugged in the charger. Before that I checked the battery with the app and it said not 5, but zero %(!!) 

When plugging the chanrger, it threw an error, saying the voltage is too low. Luckily it charged nevertheless and now it seems to be fine.
(I'm using the eunicycles smart charger which has its own webserver)

I weigh 80kg and I had an average speed of 22km/h - which is more than it sounds. I was pretty much going as fast as I could all the time (however, I'm not so skilled, so I have limited it to 46km/h and for sure I can't use all it's acceleration potential eiher)
My Inmotion V11 reaches easily 90km without throtteling. I never drove it past that, but it seems to reach easily its specified range.

So my question is: is this normal?? Both, the disappointing range and the ridiculously and dangerously fast battery drain after 30%?

At eucworld you can check the internal resistance of the battery circuit, that can be  indicator of battery health.

At the beginning of this functionality I had readings around 0,13ohms.

Nowadays, after 5.000kms, I also have less range and battery resistance readings are 0,23ohms.

We could make a correlation from this reading and battery behaviour (especially the inexistent last 30% I also suffer).

 

 

 

[SoleCycle]

Just throwing in my two cents as another data point. I just came home from a similar experience as OP on my new S18.

• I heard a beep. I'm guessing at around 25% battery. Temperatures weren't high.
• No perceptible throttling happened.
• But then at 23% it started a full tilt. Kicked me off because the pedal was too steep to ride. And from that moment forward the pedal would cycle from full tilt back to full tilt forward. Strange behavior. Why does it do this????
• I was cruising at a mellow 16 KPH but up a long hill.

It just seems weird that I could no longer ride it at 23%. That behavior is something I might expect below 10%.

After 4 minutes of rest, the battery recovered to 30% but the pedal tilt wouldn't go away so I power cycled it. It re-leveled itself and I got another 1/4 km out of it before dropping to 25% and pedal tilting me off again. I repeated the power cycle and had some downhill regeneration, but then it kicked me off again when the charge got up to 28%. Why would it do this??? I was literally regenerating power. So I power cycled again and kept going down hill and got the charge up to 29%. Then another short uphill where I used an average of 1500 W for only 30 seconds which brought it down to 23% and subsequently kicked me off again. There were no additional beeps or warnings that I can recall.

I've had this S18 for 30 days, bought brand new. Never gone below 45% battery levels until today. 255 km total user distance.

I'm 75 kg and I rarely hit a max speeds of 30 KPH. 20-25kph is my sweet spot.

I'm a new rider with only this month of experience but it just seems so wimpy to crap out at these levels!

 

Screenshot of the first cut-out

 

[The Brahan Seer]

1 hour ago, goodsignal said:

It just seems weird that I could no longer ride it at 23%. That behavior is something I might expect below 10%.

It does seem very slightly high. But with the gradient,  I don't know how aggressive, and wind your are riding in thats probably pretty normal.

The S18 is easily over powered especially at these battery levels so we need to take it very easy not to lean too hard when accelerating into it.

 

[The Brahan Seer]

1 hour ago, goodsignal said:

Never gone below 45% battery levels until today.

Yes I usually charge my wheel up to 100% when it gets into the 40's. 

100%-70% battery is full power and responsive, starts to drop off after 70% to 40%, recommend not going faster than 15MPH at 30% battery or below.

[ffontana]

2 hours ago, goodsignal said:

Just throwing in my two cents as another data point. I just came home from a similar experience as OP on my new S18.

• I heard a beep. I'm guessing at around 25% battery. Temperatures weren't high.
• No perceptible throttling happened.
• But then at 23% it started a full tilt. Kicked me off because the pedal was too steep to ride. And from that moment forward the pedal would cycle from full tilt back to full tilt forward. Strange behavior. Why does it do this????
• I was cruising at a mellow 16 KPH but up a long hill.

It just seems weird that I could no longer ride it at 23%. That behavior is something I might expect below 10%.

After 4 minutes of rest, the battery recovered to 30% but the pedal tilt wouldn't go away so I power cycled it. It re-leveled itself and I got another 1/4 km out of it before dropping to 25% and pedal tilting me off again. I repeated the power cycle and had some downhill regeneration, but then it kicked me off again when the charge got up to 28%. Why would it do this??? I was literally regenerating power. So I power cycled again and kept going down hill and got the charge up to 29%. Then another short uphill where I used an average of 1500 W for only 30 seconds which brought it down to 23% and subsequently kicked me off again. There were no additional beeps or warnings that I can recall.

I've had this S18 for 30 days, bought brand new. Never gone below 45% battery levels until today. 255 km total user distance.

I'm 75 kg and I rarely hit a max speeds of 30 KPH. 20-25kph is my sweet spot.

I'm a new rider with only this month of experience but it just seems so wimpy to crap out at these levels!

 

Screenshot of the first cut-out

 

Back and forward tilt is a normal behaviour. Actually, it's always tiltback but for sure you moved in reverse for a second. When you're riding with backend in the front, tiltback is as a forward tilt in regular direction. It's something very usual when battery low and not riding. The wheel moves back and forward for a second and the tilt changes direction.

 

Regarding tiltback with 20% battery left. That could be because a battery pack is not connected or faulty. Probably You're riding with two battery packs (not three).

What about mileage?? If your riding with two packs, mileage should have been reduced 1/3.

 

If you're not a hard rider, as you say, maybe you didn't notice a battery pack is missing. Light riders can even ride with only one pack, but mileage and security are reduced drastically.

 

You can check voltage of each pack and if they're properly connected.

[SoleCycle]

8 hours ago, ffontana said:

You can check voltage of each pack and if they're properly connected.

Haha! Maybe you can! I don't think many normal riders have any idea how to check something like this. I haven't a clue.

 

8 hours ago, ffontana said:

maybe you didn't notice a battery pack is missing.

You have lost me here. How would a battery pack go 'missing'? This is a new wheel from a reputable seller. I'm under the impression that it comes with four battery packs (2 on each side) and they appear to be built into the frame so it's hard to imagine any would go missing.

But if I'm somehow not running on all four (like one has become disconnected or one is bad), I'd like to learn how to check all the packs, if it doesn't involve specialized electronics tools.

 

10 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

It does seem very slightly high. But with the gradient,  I don't know how aggressive, and wind your are riding in thats probably pretty normal.

The S18 is easily over powered especially at these battery levels so we need to take it very easy not to lean too hard when accelerating into it.

 

Good (though maybe disappointing) to hear that it might be in the realm of normal. Regardless of gradient, is a consistent average of 1500 W on a 2200 W motor considered aggressive?

 

 

[The Brahan Seer]

1 hour ago, goodsignal said:

considered aggressive?

What i mean by this is do you put your foot down hard on the pedal (s) to make you go faster or lean forward very hard or gently lean forward. This could make a difference especially if you are going up a steep hill. But if you are not then the behaviour does seem strange as you say yourself.

@ffontana is not saying the battery is literally missing but that it might not be connected properly and so not being used. Or if its faulty or not working.

As a rough rule of thumb

1 hour ago, goodsignal said:

I'd like to learn how to check all the packs, if it doesn't involve specialized electronics tools.

If you are getting around 40 miles on a full charge going 15MPH this would seem ok but if you are only getting 25 then one of your batteries might not be working properly or is disconnected.

[reach]

On 8/30/2022 at 8:30 AM, goodsignal said:

But then at 23% it started a full tilt. Kicked me off because the pedal was too steep to ride. And from that moment forward the pedal would cycle from full tilt back to full tilt forward. Strange behavior. Why does it do this????

OP here. Not sure if you noticed that I wrote also about that same experience. Wheel going in slow motion forward and backwards. 
For me a simple powercycle fixed the issue, but for me it only happened around 10% battery or even less and I was able to ride with walking pace for the missing few hundred meters home. And it was desparately beeping all the way home.

So the behavior is weird, but at least you're not the only one.

I have no idea why this happens already at 23% for you. Maybe some sort of calibration issue? Like some devices need to run a full battery cycle first before they display the SOC correctly. (Just guessing, I have zero insight if this is a thing!)

 

Respect that you're already hitting 25mph as a newby! Take care ;-)

[Tawpie]

23 hours ago, goodsignal said:

I'm under the impression that it comes with four battery packs (2 on each side)

It has 4 physical 'packs', but only three parallel stacks. "missing" doesn't mean fell off as much as perhaps disconnected (by the battery management system or a duff connector/wire)

Your battery voltage dropped below 60V right before the spot you marked. As I recall, KS calls "dead battery" at 60V, and that would explain why it tilted you back (BTW, the term 'cutout' usually means the wheel suddenly stopped balancing and dropped you on your face. Low battery tiltback is different—annoying but not gonna get you hurt).

I'm guessing that you use EUCWorld? Check to see that Settings>General>Battery level is NOT set to optimized. That is trying to estimate remaining mileage and it's really not very good. I use custom, with 100% at 84V and 0% at 60V.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Tawpie

[SoleCycle]

1 minute ago, Tawpie said:

I'm guessing that you use EUCWorld? Check to see that Settings>General>Battery level is NOT set to optimized. That is trying to estimate remaining mileage and it's really not very good. I use custom, with 100% at 84V and 0% at 60V.

This sounds like very practical advise. Thank you.

 

2 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Your battery voltage dropped below 60V right before the spot you marked.

This is also great insight. I was merely interpreting the percentage estimates, but it's clear now that the voltage is the fundamental metric to be looking at. This is all new to me. Learning as I go. Thanks.

 

[Tawpie]

The wisdom about not riding 'hard' when the battery is low is something to take seriously. The battery architecture of the S18 is not "the best", and one characteristic of al Li-ion battery cells is that as they get depleted, their voltage basically falls off a cliff. They go from adequate to nope in a heartbeat.

That doesn't mean that S18 is inherently a bad wheel—it's just one of the (many) things you need to know about your wheel so you don't end up in a situation that's beyond its capabilities.

Do not go over 30 mph. A proper cutout is very likely at max published speed... 28 is probably the upper reasonable limit for this wheel! KS got sucked into mine-is-longer-than-yours and upped their published speed to keep up with the Gotways, the S18 can go 31, but it's ill advised.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Tawpie

[SoleCycle]

17 minutes ago, reach said:

OP here. Not sure if you noticed that I wrote also about that same experience.

Yes, that's the reason I posted here. Your recount was the closest match to what I experienced and it made sense to pool the experience in one place.

 

19 minutes ago, reach said:

Respect that you're already hitting 25mph as a newby! Take care ;-)

Haha! No that's 25 KPH not MPH. My top speed has worked up to 22 MPH (35 KPH) over this month. But this wheel really doesn't feel stable going this fast. It really wants to speed wobble. Makes me wonder if something else is out of alignment or not set correctly. But I'm too new to know because it could be that I just haven't developed the fine muscle control to keep wobbles from happening.

[reach]

2 minutes ago, goodsignal said:

But this wheel really doesn't feel stable going this fast. It really wants to speed wobble.

off topic, but I need to say that for me it's exactly the opposite: the S18 gives me soooo much confidence that at the very first ride I was consistently exceeding the top speed I've ever reached on the V11. Most likely also, because it's sitting much lower than the V11, but anyway. 

But that's off topic and also unnecessary: you'll get faster naturally the more you practise, no matter which wheel ;-) Hope you're wearing proper gear. Have fun! :-)

[Funky]

16 minutes ago, goodsignal said:

Haha! No that's 25 KPH not MPH. My top speed has worked up to 22 MPH (35 KPH) over this month. But this wheel really doesn't feel stable going this fast. It really wants to speed wobble. Makes me wonder if something else is out of alignment or not set correctly. But I'm too new to know because it could be that I just haven't developed the fine muscle control to keep wobbles from happening.

I see you have put around 300Km on S18. Have you ridden any wheels before this one?

When i still had under ~200km ridden, i also had speed wobbles. To fix that i lowered my tire PSI to ~28 (I weight 127kg/280lbs) I know it's lowish psi for my weight, but i didn't have any wobbles anymore. Also if i went over 30psi it felt like i was riding on "knife edge". 

Now after 650km ridden, not so long ago i tried riding again 35-40psi, to see if i have gained "skill". For my wonder it didn't feel like riding on "knife edge" anymore and i had zero, ZERO wobbles. You just need to keep riding...

Give it till 1000km, then you will be somewhat "mastered" euc riding.. Ps i also started to ride around 30-35km/h speeds at 250km mark. Doh i didn't have suspension.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Funky

[SoleCycle]

2 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Do not go over 30 mph. A proper cutout is very likely at max published speed... 28 is probably the upper reasonable limit for this wheel! KS got sucked into mine-is-longer-than-yours and upped their published speed to keep up with the Gotways, the S18 can go 31, but it's ill advised.

Very important safety/functional info to impart to new riders. Thank you! I have the feeling that the S18 isn't engineered well enough to go 30 MPH anyway. As mentioned above, it just feels terribly unstable above 22 MPH. But that could just be me and my untrained reflex muscles. Maybe once I rebuild the suspension and get a better tire (and whatever else needs modification), it may feel stable.

5 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Do not go over 30 mph. A proper cutout is very likely at max published speed... 28 is probably the upper reasonable limit for this wheel! KS got sucked into mine-is-longer-than-yours and upped their published speed to keep up with the Gotways, the S18 can go 31, but it's ill advised.

I'm in an incredibly hilly area. Speed isn't my thing. But being able to navigate the local terrain will be where I'm pushing this wheel.

 

3 minutes ago, Funky said:

I see you have put around 300Km on S18. Have you ridden any wheels before this one?

When i still had under ~200km ridden i also had speed wobbles. To fix that i lowered my tire PSI to ~28 (I weight 127kg/280lbs) I knew it's low psi for my weight, but i din't have any wobbles anymore. Also if i went over 30psi it felt like i was riding on "knife edge". 

Now after 650km ridden not so long ago i tried riding again 35-40psi to see if i have gained "skill". For my wonder it didn't feel like riding on "knife edge" anymore and i have zero, ZERO wobbles. You just need to keep riding...

Thanks for the encouragement and insight. I like the full tire because it makes slalom and carving on pavement feel so glorious. But I may experiment with a lower pressure to see if the wobbles go away. But I'm also not going for speed thrills. I really like navigating complicated terrain with this thing. I'm a trail runner and this wheel was purchased because a recent foot issue has stopped me from trail running for a few months. This is my first wheel and first 300km. I'm mostly doing mountain single track and feeling pretty stoked at my skill level at one month in. When on pavement, I'm seeing quick gains in my control during slow speed deep turns or sharp turns, which is what I want to feel confident about when traveling urban environments.

 

[The Brahan Seer]

15 minutes ago, goodsignal said:

I'm mostly doing mountain single track

Despite the lower power, the suspension and the wheel in general is great for this kind of thing imo. Certainly a great first wheel to get your teeth into. The back mudguard/shell is a little weak and prone to breaking so maybe put some (mtb) tape on it to help mitigate this. I just got some jump blocks which work well in keeping your feet on the plates or maybe look at spiked pedals down the track. I liked learning without these aids to give more fluidity and to learn how every foot placement affects the controllability but each to their own. Sorry i couldn't help much re your battery issues, I leave the really technical stuff to experts as its one area i'm not strong in, so I can only give simple advice sometimes. Enjoy! Safe rides. 

 

[Tawpie]

34 minutes ago, goodsignal said:

I'm a trail runner and this wheel was purchased because a recent foot issue has stopped me from trail running for a few months. This is my first wheel and first 300km. I'm mostly doing mountain single track and feeling pretty stoked at my skill level at one month in.

Trails are the very best way to amp up your skills (except for speed wobbles, the only medicine for those is time and miles at speed) so you're doing the exact right thing. You'll be able to scout out new trails to run fairly quickly on your wheel—exploring an offshoot isn't a problem because, you're not on foot!

IMO, S18 is a perfect choice for a trail runner. I know you'll have a ton of fun.