Poor Design? What is with these valve stems...

[Saboteur_ZA]

I'm really frustrated at the moment and trying to be rational. But I really don't get why the tyre valve stems on EUCs are so poorly designed. Maybe it is just me but it is always an ordeal when having to inflate the tyre. I have a KingSong 16x, bought it earlier this year, done just over 500km on it. The first time I had to inflate the wheel, I struggled with a bicycle valve adapter, the floppy kind that I pretty much wrecked just fighting to connect it. But managed it eventually. Searched online and found some valve adapters that were recommended, so I bought one. Long straight brass connecter, thought that would help. But maybe the valve stem on my tyre is defective, because it keeps disappearing into the tyre! What I mean is, you cannot even see the bend in the valve stem, it looks straight because only a small portion is showing, and it is jammed up against the side of the rim. I took it back to the store where I bought it, they took it into the back, brought it back with the valve stem in the right position. Great! Thought that was the end of it. But yesterday I needed to inflate the tyre again.  Same problem, valve stem disappeared into the tyre... so annoying. Thought of taking it to a bike repair shop, just because the EUC store is a long drive away. But they wouldn't even look at it, insurance issues apparently. Never thought of that, guess they're well aware of the history of EUCs and fires... Good thing my household insurance doesn't penalize me for that, but who knows, in the event of a fire there's probably a little clause somewhere... Anyway, maybe this is something I should be able to deal with myself, everyone on this forum seems pretty handy and capable of maintenance themselves. I, on the other hand, not so handy at all...  Maybe I should learn. But I can't believe this is normal. Wondering if anyone else has experienced this issue with the valve stem sinking into the tyre? Seem to remember that on my bicycle tyres, there was a metal ring that fit around the valve stem - thinking that the purpose was to keep the valve stem in place. That would be ideal for my situation, I think.

[Paradox]

The only time a valve has been pushed into the tire when I was inflating was when the tire had very little pressure in it to start.  I try never to let the tire get so low again.  I check every couple of weeks to once a month and never had the problem again.

[Funky]

WTF.. How can valve "sink" into pumped tire?? It only happens when there's very, i mean very little air in it.. First time hearing something like that.

Quick question what tire are you using? I could imagine having that problem, if i would have installed "motorcycle tubeless tire" < These tires sidewalls are 2-3x thicker than regular euc tires.. Meaning tube can't really sit in that "small" grove. (rim lip / tire lip / valve / tire lip / rim lip) < You know what i mean.. You can barely fit valve between them.

Or if you use regular euc tire.. Maybe tube it self is messed up somehow - pinched, wrapped around it self.. (Not correctly installed)

I have zero skills in euc - but how hard is to unscrew some screws..  It's more or less plug and play game.. Heck even youtube has "How To" videos.. Biggest problem is to remember to plug all back together.  

You could always simply let "all" air out.. Move tire around.. Refill (You will need to recenter the tire.)

And stem should be pulled out of rim all the way.. Let all air out and pull hat bitch.

Maybe the tube is simply installed "backwards" ??? Valve stem should look(Bend Outwards) <<< But it looks(Bend Inwards) >>> Against rim. But that would be very dumb..

Photos / Video of the problem would help out.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Funky

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, Saboteur_ZA said:

on my bicycle tyres, there was a metal ring that fit around the valve stem - thinking that the purpose was to keep the valve stem in place.

The challenge with EUC tires is there's just not enough room between the motor and the rim for a 'normal' valve stem, so they bend the valve stem over. Because there's no 'locking' mechanism to keep the valve stem from sinking into the tire when the pressure is very low (it has to be basically flat), you have to hold the valve stem with your fingers when installing the extender. You can't just press the extender against the stem (it lets air out as you screw it on and if you're pressing without holding the stem, it'll go into the rim).

I would suggest another long trip back to the EUC shop and ask them to teach you how to get the extender on properly. It's either something you "just get" or is best demonstrated. Then try it a couple of times while you're in the shop to make sure you have the technique down pat.

Make sure the valve stem is pulled all the way out of the rim though, it it's only partly way out the tube will fail at the stem interface and that becomes a larger problem!

BTW, you shouldn't need to put air in the tire very often, you might have a slow leak. A visit to the shop might help you understand why you needed air the next day.

[Paul A]

https://www.amazon.com/Extensions-Mellbree-Extension-Compatible-Motorcycles/dp/B08PYZFC9T/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=1PLN3VFFMSJJO&keywords=angled+valve+extender&qid=1654790113&sprefix=angle+valve+extender%2Caps%2C328&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyUVg2SExMVUhBR1VXJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzMwMTQ0MU5DN0FGMzM1OEpaRCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMjcxMzUyMUJTMjdLSVpBSlRXSSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

 

6-Pack Valve Stem Extenders, Mellbree 45 Degree 90 Degree 135 Degree Schrader Tire Valve Extension Compatible for Dual Wheels Passenger Cars, RV, Stroller, Bicycles, Motorcycles and Trailers

Price:

$10.86

[Funky]

It should look like this.. Ignore the tire bump. Easy to pump, not sinking in.. See where the bend is.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Funky

[Saboteur_ZA]

[Paul A]

Think the tube in the wheel is not suitable.

Might need to install a tube that has an angled valve stem.

[Saboteur_ZA]

Thanks for the replies and the advice, I know this sounds ridiculously basic, but it is a real problem to me. To clarify, I have not had to pump the tire often. The EUC store sorted the valve stem back in March, and now it is time to add more air. I did not even try to inflate the tire, simply looking at it, it was already recessed into the tire. It is the stock tire that the KS16x shipped with, 16x3, no name I can see except it says J-6188 if that makes any difference. I think perhaps the advice that I have been running with too low a tire pressure could be valid. I had about 25 psi (tire says 35 to 45, but when I tried more than 25 it was very squirrely for me). Maybe I have gotten into a bad habit with riding too low a pressure. When I get this problem sorted I will try and raise the pressure a bit and get used to the feel of that. But I did google that metal ring I was talking about, see it is called a valve stem nut! Will try to get some at the bike store, I think it can only help.

2 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Think the tube in the wheel is not suitable.

Might need to install a tube that has an angled valve stem.

Believe it or not, it is actually angled. It is just so far into the tire that you can't tell!

[Funky]

38 minutes ago, Saboteur_ZA said:

Thanks for the replies and the advice, I know this sounds ridiculously basic, but it is a real problem to me. To clarify, I have not had to pump the tire often. The EUC store sorted the valve stem back in March, and now it is time to add more air. I did not even try to inflate the tire, simply looking at it, it was already recessed into the tire. It is the stock tire that the KS16x shipped with, 16x3, no name I can see except it says J-6188 if that makes any difference. I think perhaps the advice that I have been running with too low a tire pressure could be valid. I had about 25 psi (tire says 35 to 45, but when I tried more than 25 it was very squirrely for me). Maybe I have gotten into a bad habit with riding too low a pressure. When I get this problem sorted I will try and raise the pressure a bit and get used to the feel of that. But I did google that metal ring I was talking about, see it is called a valve stem nut! Will try to get some at the bike store, I think it can only help.

Believe it or not, it is actually angled. It is just so far into the tire that you can't tell!

Let the air out!! And pull the valve out!!! Do it right now.. If it still goes back in, then again let all air out and move the TIRE it self around. By moving tire you could untangle TUBE. I have no clue how it could go in there.. By it self..

For reference i ride at 28psi and i got the heavy duty "motorcycle tubeless tire".. 25psi should be fine for regular "original" J-6188 < These tires are thin, easy to bend.. And i weight 280lbs.......

I think i figured it.. By chance do you start your ride very fast? Do you by chance break really hard??? It looks like the TUBE it self.. have moved - pulling the valve in.. You know how wheel spins if you break/start really fast I mean really, really fast. It could move the tube/tire it self around the rim.

You need to let all air out.. and move the tire+tube in place, where valve comes completely out.

Valve stem "nut" won't fix this issue.. You need to have that "screw" like valve - like bikes have.. Euc tubes don't have that.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Funky

[Saboteur_ZA]

6 minutes ago, Funky said:

Let the air out!! And pull the valve out!!! Do it right now.. If it still goes back in, then again let all air out and move the TIRE it self around. By moving tire you could untangle TUBE. I have no clue how it could go in there.. By it self..

You're right of course, what is the worst that can happen... and I could save myself a long drive to the EUC store... plus I can't ride now until I get the opportunity to take time off work to go... On the other point you raised, I don't feel that I accelerate hard, and I haven't even practiced braking hard, still developing skills. I do have it up to 38km/h or so quite often, but I don't think I push it hard to get there. Actually a tubeless tire is starting to sound quite good right now, especially if it would avoid all this hassle! 

[Funky]

4 minutes ago, Saboteur_ZA said:

 Actually a tubeless tire is starting to sound quite good right now, especially if it would avoid all this hassle! 

By tubeless i mean that i use tubeless tire BUT i still got tube in.. K66 tire is made only tubeless.. We still use TUBES in the tire it self..

By going tubeless you will have more/ more problems.. EUC rims aren't made for "tubeless" tires.. Air leaks.. Bead breaking while riding to low psi.. So on.. We use tubeless tires - with tubes in them.

Please read my post again i have added something at the end..

Edited June 9, 2022 by Funky

[Funky]

I have heard that 16x have quit good torque. You maybe just think "i don't accelerate hard" 

Same as some people think 20mph is "fast", next guy thinks that's supper slow.. Get what i mean.  

Anyways like i said - letting all air out and moving whole tire+tube around, would fix this problem.. Just make sure to center the tire afterwards.. (Not centered tire, could make you wobble at higher speeds..)

Maybe you don't even need to move "tire" maybe you can simply pull valve out.. When tire has 0 air in.. By 0 i mean you need to let all air out, so you could move tube..

By holding euc pedals and letting it speed up (Free spin) You can make sure that tire is centered. If it doesn't shake at higher speed - everything fine. If it starts to shake - recenter the tire again..

 Free spin test: His wheel isn't shaking left/right = centered tire.

How to check if tire is "centered"

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Funky

[The Brahan Seer]

I have had issues with valve extenders and found a pump with a thumb lock tyre valve connector to be the easiest to use.

Here is a picture of what they look like:

I wouldn't worry about tubeless tyres atm. As stated before you need to use a tube in our wheels anyway. This is because our rims are not specifically designed for tubeless tyres or tubeless valves. 

You could try carefully lifting the current valve up using a pair of pliers. Just be careful not to damage the valve in doing so. 

[Saboteur_ZA]

Hey, thanks for explanation on my misunderstanding of tubeless tires for EUC... And for pointers on centering of wheel, etc. Wanted to redeem myself a bit by reporting success on solving this issue! I did use pliers after deflating the wheel, to yank the valve stem back into position. I could have been more careful, lots of scratches, etc, but I was of the mind that if it broke, it broke. It is more hardy than I thought! Now inflated tyre to 30 psi, which is the most I've ever had. After work today, will try it out... hope it doesn't feel like learning to ride all over again, memory of that is still too fresh!

[Funky]

27 minutes ago, Saboteur_ZA said:

Hey, thanks for explanation on my misunderstanding of tubeless tires for EUC... And for pointers on centering of wheel, etc. Wanted to redeem myself a bit by reporting success on solving this issue! I did use pliers after deflating the wheel, to yank the valve stem back into position. I could have been more careful, lots of scratches, etc, but I was of the mind that if it broke, it broke. It is more hardy than I thought! Now inflated tyre to 30 psi, which is the most I've ever had. After work today, will try it out... hope it doesn't feel like learning to ride all over again, memory of that is still too fresh!

I don't even like riding anything over 30psi and i weight 280lbs.. I get that feeling "riding on knife edge" if i go over 30psi.

26psi should work very well.. If you are ~200lbs  (Ofc if you jump, etc.. You could damage rim.)

Edited June 10, 2022 by Funky

[Saboteur_ZA]

7 minutes ago, Funky said:

26psi should work very well.. If you are ~200lbs  (Ofc if you jump, etc.. You could damage rim.)

I'm around 160 lbs (had to convert it, I'm metric!). So maybe 30 psi is now too extreme. Still, I'll try it out just for curiosity (when no-one is around to witness any carnage). But maybe I go back to 25 if too hectic. But if that valve stem disappears again, I'll be really mad!

[Tawpie]

23 hours ago, Saboteur_ZA said:

it is called a valve stem nut! Will try to get some at the bike store

I doubt you'll be able to get it over the bend in the valve stem, and the valve stem must have threads for the nut to go onto—I'm pretty sure EUC tubes don't have threaded valve stems.

But here's a whacky idea... once the stem in in place and the tire is inflated, make a "collar" between the rim and the bend in the stem by putting on zip ties. Not tight or anything, but stack up enough of them side-to-side to fill the gap between the rim and the bend in the valve stem.

WARNING: if your tube is slipping and that's what's causing it to ingest the valve, the above is a very bad idea and will eventually tear your tube. I'd only try a collar to help keep from pushing the stem into the rim when the tube is deflated.

[Funky]

Why no one have yet made a "solid" tire for euc, with honeycombs in the tire it self.. The tire would act the same as tubed - because of honeycombs. Yet won't need air.. And you will never have a flat. Bikes, scooters already have some..

[Paul A]

The pressure of the tube should be pushing the interface of tube/valve up against the rim.

Valve stem retracting into the tyre should not be happening.

The EUC store might have installed a conventional bicycle tube that has a short, straight valve stem....

 

Bicycle tube

EUC tube

 

[Tawpie]

One other thing... check your pressure using another gauge. I use the same gauge to set my pressures so I set a consistent pressure, but am quite certain they're not accurate by any means. Eating the valve stem has to be an issue with pressure too low.

Maybe have someone take a picture of the tire when you're standing on it?

Edited June 10, 2022 by Tawpie

[Saboteur_ZA]

[Saboteur_ZA]

25 minutes ago, Paul A said:

The pressure of the tube should be pushing the interface of tube/valve up against the rim.

Valve stem retracting into the tyre should not be happening.

The EUC store might have installed a conventional bicycle tube that has a short, straight valve stem....

Well, in the next instalment of the X-files, I can confirm that it is indeed an EUC tube. Witness the poor, mangled and scarred valve stem above, after I wrestled it out of the depths of the tire with the help of my trusty pliers!

[Saboteur_ZA]

29 minutes ago, Funky said:

Why no one have yet made a "solid" tire for euc, with honeycombs in the tire it self.. The tire would act the same as tubed - because of honeycombs. Yet won't need air.. And you will never have a flat. Bikes, scooters already have some..

Love this concept! I'm all in favour of permanent solutions... Maybe it is more expensive, so unlikely manufacturers would opt for this themselves. If this existed as an option for my wheel though, I'd buy it in a moment... although I wonder what impact it would have on comfort...

[Saboteur_ZA]

22 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

One other thing... check your pressure using another gauge. I use the same gauge to set my pressures so I set a consistent pressure, but am quite certain they're not accurate by any means. Eating the valve stem has to be an issue with pressure too low.

Maybe have someone take a picture of the tire when you're standing on it?

Good point about the valve nut not fitting, yeah, I didn't think that through! Anyway, I tried out the higher PSI on a quick ride at lunchtime... ugh! Not good, I couldn't ride it safely, had to stop and let some air out. Not scientific now, but since I started at 30 psi, and it still feels higher than the 25 psi I used to ride, I think it must be around 26 or 27 psi... Actually feels more stable at really low speeds, but doesn't feel too unstable for normal riding, which is good. Still don't understand how people ride at 35 or 40 psi though, I would be crashing all the time! And since I don't have a suspension wheel, would be really bad. When learning, I didn't know about scanning ahead, so I hit some bad road surface, potholes, etc. If I hadn't been using lower psi, hate to think what would have happened, wouldn't have controlled it for sure.