EUC dangerous for super tall riders??

[Felix]

9 minutes ago, mhpr262 said:

The center of gravity of a person's body cant be further forward than the front edge of the pedal or else he will fall off the EUC

Don't think that's the case: You can easily have your center of gravity  further forward then the front edge of the pedal, check out Kujis videos, he leans like Michael jackson :). But the EUC has to accelerate hard to compensate. That's my point: For the same angle lean the EUC has to work harder for the tall guy.

[yoos]

1 hour ago, Felix said:

Don't think that's the case: You can easily have your center of gravity  further forward then the front edge of the pedal, check out Kujis videos, he leans like Michael jackson :). But the EUC has to accelerate hard to compensate.

This is correct. I'll try to illustrate with stick figures once I get home. But generally there are three typical modes of movement on an EUC

1. You are moving with a constant speed with constant posture (fixed lean) -- this is what happens when you are cruising. In this scenario your c.o.g. has to be above the pedals indeed. There is some lean involved since you need constant torque and power to compensate wind drag.
2. You are moving with accelerating with a constant posture -- this is roughly what you see on Kuji's acceleration videos. Obviously you cannot stay in such a mode for long since you cannot accelerate indefinitely. In this case the c.o.g. can be in front of the pedals (but doesn't need to be) which neccessarily means you are accelerating.
3. Dynamical situations where you are moving relative to the EUC. These are the hardest to analyze in terms of mechanics. But to a large extent it can still be done. These situations are starts, stops, pendulums, torque bursts, curb hops, transitions between 1 and 2 etc.

The original poster @wstuart's assumption is correct in the sense that 2 and 3 involve distances and therefore a taller person can cause a higher torque more easily (with more modest body movements). However, if you are just cruising, a taller person does not cause more stress or energy consumption [except for the slightly higher air drag]. Actually, if you are cruising (and not accelerating or climbing a hill) then mass is also not very relevant, except for the higher rolling friction.

[wstuart]

5 hours ago, Felix said:

I believe OP was talking about same angle lean (same horizontal shift obviously has same effect) , and the work the EUC has to do for it compared to a short guy/girl: For him the EUC has to work harder which IMO is the point of this whole thread 

Yeah that is my understanding now, but I do appreciate that picture.  I think the picture is accurate 

Here has been my experience so far:

My first few times riding have been on a large grass field on an MSP HT.  (The axel bolt came loose, so I've switched to a V8F in a parking lot - much easier).  When I was riding the MSP HT I was surprised that I could get it to accelerate very very quickly on just my 2nd time riding.  I could get up to 20 -25 mph no problem and I really wasn't leaning far.  I was surprised because I heard from several YouTube videos that it takes a while to develop the skill to accelerate quickly.  Believe me - I absolutely suck at riding, - I can still hardly turn, but I have no problem at all getting a wheel to accelerate - I can already get my v8f to beep.

 

I'm guessing that my height and weight allow me to do this.  For the same amount of lean as a shorter person I can put a little more force on the pedal.  What I have learned from these posts however is that it's not dramatically more.  For example a much shorter person with power pads can put a greater force on the pedal.  Also because my body is not a rigid structure I'm not really maximizing the effect of the higher center of gravity - In other words, my ability to accelerate might come more from my 225lbs that from my height. 

[techyiam]

When a rider's C.G. is beyond the front edge of the pedals, that means more than 50% of the rider's weight is off the pedals, and therefore, there won't be enough rider's weight on the pedals to keep him on the pedals, should he not be accelerating.

Consider a hypothetical case, in which a passenger just got on the bus and decides to stand and not hold on to a pole. What would happen to the rider when the bus accelerates hard. Since there is enough friction between the soles of his shoes and the floor of the bus, his feet stay put initially. The resulting inertial force acting on him would then create a moment tilting him backwards.

Hence, if a rider leans forward and accelerates on a euc, it is possible for the rider to stay in balance on the pedals even though his C.G. is beyond the front edge of the pedal.

If you go back and look closely at Kuji's RS YouTube review, you will find that his feet are locked into fairly large and snugly fitted power pads. Since the euc did not cut out, he was able to do the Michael Jackson because he was accelerating harder than without power pads, and he was semi-"coupled" to the euc.  

Edited February 4, 2022 by techyiam

[mrelwood]

I think the math and physics have been figured out already. A tall person needs less leaning angle for the same acceleration. But the tire diameter is the direct opponent in this. The larger the tire, the more the CoG needs to move forward for the same amount of acceleration. This is why simply sticking to larger wheels is usually enough to compensate for larger height or weight.

 Further than that, a hard riding mode takes more effort to accelerate than medium or soft, since it doesn’t give the rider any time to get to the leaning position before it tries to correct the imbalance.

So an 18x3” EUC (such as the RS) or larger and a hard riding mode and you don’t need to be careful with your leans.

 I’m 6’5” and about 220lbs, and I believe my measures are the main reason why 14” and 16x2.125” wheels feel flimsy to me. So I ride 18x3”, although I usually prefer a medium mode so that an emergency braking doesn’t require quite as much effort.

[wstuart]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I think the math and physics have been figured out already. A tall person needs less leaning angle for the same acceleration. But the tire diameter is the direct opponent in this. The larger the tire, the more the CoG needs to move forward for the same amount of acceleration. This is why simply sticking to larger wheels is usually enough to compensate for larger height or weight.

 Further than that, a hard riding mode takes more effort to accelerate than medium or soft, since it doesn’t give the rider any time to get to the leaning position before it tries to correct the imbalance.

So an 18x3” EUC (such as the RS) or larger and a hard riding mode and you don’t need to be careful with your leans.

 I’m 6’5” and about 220lbs, and I believe my measures are the main reason why 14” and 16x2.125” wheels feel flimsy to me. So I ride 18x3”, although I usually prefer a medium mode so that an emergency braking doesn’t require quite as much effort.

Oh cool - you are exactly who I need to talk to.  I have an MSP HT and it feels like it could handle Shaq if it had to.  I also have a v8f and I don't even wanna ride it below 50%.  It feels strong, but nothing like my MSP.  

I'm debating between a KS 18L or a KS 16x for my next wheel (city commuting).  For my height and weight should I go for the added torque, battery and 3 inch tire of the 16x...... or should I get the 18L with the larger diameter, but less battery, torque and 2.125 inch wide tire?

[.....]

11 minutes ago, wstuart said:

Oh cool - you are exactly who I need to talk to.  I have an MSP HT and it feels like it could handle Shaq if it had to.  I also have a v8f and I don't even wanna ride it below 50%.  It feels strong, but nothing like my MSP.  

I'm debating between a KS 18L or a KS 16x for my next wheel (city commuting).  For my height and weight should I go for the added torque, battery and 3 inch tire of the 16x...... or should I get the 18L with the larger diameter, but less battery, torque and 2.125 inch wide tire?

18L handles 25mph steady, much safer than the 16x.

[The Fat Unicyclist]

41 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

18L handles 25mph steady, much safer than the 16x.

I agree... 18L all the way!

[mrelwood]

 

2 hours ago, wstuart said:

It feels strong, but nothing like my MSP.

Even disregarding the difference in the tire diameter (~22%), the nominal motor power of the MSP is more than double that of the V8F! So absolutely it will feel and be way stronger in every possible situation.

2 hours ago, wstuart said:

I'm debating between a KS 18L or a KS 16x

The 16X is a 26-27mph wheel even for lighter riders. The 18L should have no problem carrying you at the maximum 31mph as long as you ride easy at faster speeds. It still ain’t an MSP (2500W vs 2000W, and 1800Wh vs 1000Wh).

Btw, the 18L tire is 18x2.5”, not 2.125”.

Anyway, getting an 18L when you already have the MSP is somewhat of a sidegrade. You would gain comfort, quality and safety, but you would lose speed, torque and range. If you want more variety, I would personally look into other wheels as well. While the 18L and 18XL are great wheels, they are quite overpriced at least in Europe.

Edited February 5, 2022 by mrelwood

[yoos]

11 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Anyway, getting an 18L when you already have the MSP is somewhat of a sidegrade. You would gain comfort, quality and safety

Indeed, in terms of performance both the 18L and 16X are downgrades. The gains are worth it if you do commute regularly and the quality of life things are important to you. Most of all, the 18L is sleek (good for invading indoors public places unashamedly) and the trolley handle is great even for really tall people. The out-of-factory waterproofing of the 18L is also praised (however mine was additionally waterproofed by the dealer).

If weight and cost are not particularly important you might want to try a suspension wheel to bring something definitely new to your EUC fleet. Either a V11 or wait for the newer wheels (S20,V13,Master), but then it would be best to sit the coming summer season out to avoid first-batch problems. The S18 is questionable in terms of speed and torque, I would not consider it at your height and weight unless your driving style is extremely reserved. 

[xiiijojjo]

Weight is the most important factor, height only allows for you to leverage that weight as a force.

Most humans have most of their weight below the navel, also typically your center of gravity (proportion of height relative to weight) becomes the most important stat for controlling an EUC. 

If you could somehow control your body mass and put an extra 20kg into your skull as a tall rider, then assuming that moving around said heavier head wouldn't require a lot more exhaustion on your muscles. This would essentially make the rider capable of more aggressive and immediate ways of manipulating the EUC.

Edited February 6, 2022 by xiiijojjo

[Felix]

On 2/5/2022 at 10:39 PM, wstuart said:

KS 18L or a KS 16x

make sure its 18XL not 18L , the extra WH adds safety and range. i have it and love it. 2.5tire is great

[wstuart]

8 hours ago, Felix said:

make sure its 18XL not 18L , the extra WH adds safety and range. i have it and love it. 2.5tire is great

It's actually the 18L. Is the battery more dangerous (prone to cutout)??

I plan to never go below 40%.  My commute is 8 miles each way and I can charge at work so I'm hoping the 1054mah battery will be enough...... but is it still risky for cutouts even if above 50%?  

I plan to get an xl at some point but I'm just learning and doing short commutes on this.  Is the L much more prone to cutouts that the xl though (for 220lb riders?)  

I also don't plan to go above 22mph.  I agree that if I start going further or faster, the xl will be a better commuter.   I also have an MSP HT though.  When I felt good enough I'll probably use that for longer rides.  I sort of see the 18L as a learning wheel for that. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by wstuart

[meepmeepmayer]

No 4p wheel (like the 18L) has yet had battery-related cut out problems. No worries there. You also don't need to limit yourself to 40+%. Just ride until it beeps, and keep it non-extreme at lower battery levels.

[Felix]

12 minutes ago, wstuart said:

Is the L much more prone to cutouts that the xl though

No i didn't mean that, the L is very safe wheel. But the XL has 6 packs in parallels and I think you can hammer that thing at 45kph all the way to 20% or so. But that's clearly not your use case.

[mrelwood]

10 hours ago, wstuart said:

It's actually the 18L. Is the battery more dangerous (prone to cutout)??

I plan to never go below 40%.  My commute is 8 miles each way and I can charge at work so I'm hoping the 1054mah battery will be enough...... but is it still risky for cutouts even if above 50%?  

I plan to get an xl at some point but I'm just learning and doing short commutes on this.  Is the L much more prone to cutouts that the xl though (for 220lb riders?)  

I also don't plan to go above 22mph.  I agree that if I start going further or faster, the xl will be a better commuter.   I also have an MSP HT though.  When I felt good enough I'll probably use that for longer rides.  I sort of see the 18L as a learning wheel for that. 

The 18XL does have more power available at all battery levels, so it is inherently safer at all times. That doesn't make the 18L "risky" though, especially if you don't accelerate hard or ride it all the way to empty.

One thing that is common for practically all riders is that if you are just learning and you are looking for a wheel for 8 mile commuting at 22mph, you will most probably be enjoying 20 mile sceneric journeys at 28mph in a month... As long as your wheel can support that. The 18L does have a decent reserve for your plans so you'd still be ok, but this is still good to remember.

If you plan to eventually buy the 18XL anyway though, buying yourself both the 18L and the 18XL doesn't make financial sense. I would go straight for the 18XL. Still the question remains, why are you planning on buying either the 18L or 18XL when you already have an MSP?

[wstuart]

12 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The 18XL does have more power available at all battery levels, so it is inherently safer at all times. That doesn't make the 18L "risky" though, especially if you don't accelerate hard or ride it all the way to empty.

One thing that is common for practically all riders is that if you are just learning and you are looking for a wheel for 8 mile commuting at 22mph, you will most probably be enjoying 20 mile sceneric journeys at 28mph in a month... As long as your wheel can support that. The 18L does have a decent reserve for your plans so you'd still be ok, but this is still good to remember.

If you plan to eventually buy the 18XL anyway though, buying yourself both the 18L and the 18XL doesn't make financial sense. I would go straight for the 18XL. Still the question remains, why are you planning on buying either the 18L or 18XL when you already have an MSP?

Good question!  My MSP was setup for off roading.  It has a nobby tire and spiked pedals and I am planning to use it for off roading and for the longer scenic/fast rides you mentioned.  I was hoping to use the 18l for shorter city street commutes where I still need some powerZZZ. Also - my MSP is down right now with a loose axel bolt so, I'm hoping now and in the future that a spare wheel will keep me riding.  

I think you are right though...... If and when I get bette, Im going to get used to the speed and power of the MSP and never want to ride the 18L.

I have to admit though that I sort of bought the 18L with the assumption that it is easier to ride than the MSP (for a new rider).  Do you think this is true??  I know my V8F has been MUCH easier to ride than my MSP was.  I'm hoping the 18l will be a little more like my v8f and serve and an intermediate wheel for me. 

[mrelwood]

9 hours ago, wstuart said:

I sort of bought the 18L with the assumption that it is easier to ride than the MSP (for a new rider).  Do you think this is true??

The 18L is more comfortable to ride, but how much of that translates into ease of learning… hard to say. I don’t think there to be a big difference. Although the tire width does make the MSP more stable, especially at lower speeds.

So did you buy the 18L already?

[.....]

11 hours ago, wstuart said:

Good question!  My MSP was setup for off roading.  It has a nobby tire and spiked pedals and I am planning to use it for off roading and for the longer scenic/fast rides you mentioned.  I was hoping to use the 18l for shorter city street commutes where I still need some powerZZZ. Also - my MSP is down right now with a loose axel bolt so, I'm hoping now and in the future that a spare wheel will keep me riding.  

I think you are right though...... If and when I get bette, Im going to get used to the speed and power of the MSP and never want to ride the 18L.

I have to admit though that I sort of bought the 18L with the assumption that it is easier to ride than the MSP (for a new rider).  Do you think this is true??  I know my V8F has been MUCH easier to ride than my MSP was.  I'm hoping the 18l will be a little more like my v8f and serve and an intermediate wheel for me. 

18L was my very first wheel. Its a good one to learn on and it can take a beating. The more gotway wheels I ride, the less I like them(mten excluded). Power delivery on Gotway is far different than KS. Its all a matter of preference of course.

[wstuart]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The 18L is more comfortable to ride, but how much of that translates into ease of learning… hard to say. I don’t think there to be a big difference. Although the tire width does make the MSP more stable, especially at lower speeds.

So did you buy the 18L already?

I did buy the 18L.  The person is shipping it today hopefully.  It has 400 miles on it.  I'll be curious to see how it compares to my v8f.  I'm getting more and more comfortable on my v8f every day.  

At this point I would try to transition to my MSP HT but the loose axel bolt is bad- it kind of shakes now when just going forward.  I'm waiting to hear back from the local ewheels repair guy about getting it fixed.  I want to tighten it myself but I don't have the tools. 

If I really like the 18L I might sell the MSP just because it seems like the 18L is way easier to work on.  I'll be curious to see which one I like better in terms of riding though.  I wouldn't mind keeping the MSP just for offroad - I don't feel like my skills are good enough yet for offroad though.

[Felix]

10 hours ago, wstuart said:

I did buy the 18L.  The person is shipping it today hopefully.  It has 400 miles on it.  I'll be curious to see how it compares to my v8f.  I'm getting more and more comfortable on my v8f every day.  

At this point I would try to transition to my MSP HT but the loose axel bolt is bad- it kind of shakes now when just going forward.  I'm waiting to hear back from the local ewheels repair guy about getting it fixed.  I want to tighten it myself but I don't have the tools. 

If I really like the 18L I might sell the MSP just because it seems like the 18L is way easier to work on.  I'll be curious to see which one I like better in terms of riding though.  I wouldn't mind keeping the MSP just for offroad - I don't feel like my skills are good enough yet for offroad though.

I went from V8F to Gotway Tesla (which felt exactly the same just much more powerful), and then to 18XL. The 18XL needed just a few hours of getting used to (unlike the Tesla), as it is a bit heavier,  bigger wheel size and wider tire than V8F/Tesla. But after a few hours the brain is completely rewired and 18(X)L feels amazing.

[.....]

12 hours ago, wstuart said:

I did buy the 18L.  The person is shipping it today hopefully.  It has 400 miles on it.  I'll be curious to see how it compares to my v8f.  I'm getting more and more comfortable on my v8f every day.  

At this point I would try to transition to my MSP HT but the loose axel bolt is bad- it kind of shakes now when just going forward.  I'm waiting to hear back from the local ewheels repair guy about getting it fixed.  I want to tighten it myself but I don't have the tools. 

If I really like the 18L I might sell the MSP just because it seems like the 18L is way easier to work on.  I'll be curious to see which one I like better in terms of riding though.  I wouldn't mind keeping the MSP just for offroad - I don't feel like my skills are good enough yet for offroad though.

Congrats on the new wheel. Be sure to check for newest FW. The latest FW is solid and quiet.  I'm not sure the 18L will replace the MSP directly. I bet youll find its similar but a more refined ride. I would definitely look at perhaps using the HT for those offroad and nasty endeavors. Perhaps keep the 18L for the more gentleman like rides. I dont think either wheel is gna be that much easier than the other, to work on. The 18L does have a different hanger setup. Im betting the gotway axle bolt is merely one that uses a notched socket. Perhaps now is a good time to begin collecting a small tool kit and trying to fix it? If not, best of luck on the repair guy. They arent overly complex machines. Its either a fairly simply fix, or a parts replacement fix. Keep us posted!

Edited February 10, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[yoos]

13 hours ago, wstuart said:

I don't feel like my skills are good enough yet for offroad though.

I believe the only way to get enough skill for offroad is to do offroad, just start slow on some basic offroad (no drops, jumps, steep ascents or descents). A basic field or forest road is good. It is also a cheaty way to get way better in street riding. I switched from 100kms of basketball court EUC drills to basic offroad and it was an incredible skill boost.