Inmotion V13 Speculation

[GPSchile]

7 hours ago, 2disbetter said:

Based on the wheel not turning on after being turned off, I'd say the additional mudflap that conecones made is essential. Although not for the reasons you might expect. My thinking is that the mud, snow, slush just is a conductor of cold, and it drops the temps on the inside of the wheel significantly. 

Now as to what is happening on the wheel; my guess: the batteries, BMS, or control board got too cold. Most likely the batteries. The BMS detects this and in an effort to protect the batteries just will not turn on. However, it is only doing this when it is safe to do it. (IE: when the user has turned the wheel off.)

Long shot, but I say this because if it was something else it would cut out in the middle of ridding and it isn't doing that. 

Next days I am receiving an EW (electric wheel) with a similar behavior (different model). After turning it off, sometimes it does not turn back on for some minutes. However it has been used near the Atacama desert. Clearly not a water-proofing chance of cause. I recall some teachers always insisting in separating facts form interpretations. Often we see two events close in time but this does not mean necessarily a cause-effect relationship between the two.
Mud + not turning on for some minutes = no proof of mud or moisture being the cause of the behavior of the vehicle. It cannot be discarded neither, but causes can be several, from a firmware issue, a voltage imbalance self protecting case (I have several of those and mostly are resulting from wrong voltmeters calibration), temperature impact on the current, a loose connector, etc.
Social media is great and to share the outcome of these cases help others. It is an important contribution but rushing conclusions prior a dedicated study by a technician assessing all possible causes, may result as premature as misleading. I would recommend checking with the self-diagnose feature, upload the log file as close as possible in time with the event and contact the original dealer to address the case accordingly. Producing additional data with EUC World may help pin pointing the cause faster.
Dealers should not be just "importers". Instead, are there to assist with technical expertise, tools and support from the manufacturer. Our unicycles are no longer toys, they are powerful and increasingly complex vehicles. There is a lot we can do domestically to fix our "electric wheels" but when there is something we do not know, we should contact our dealer or authorized service. Just like we do with our cars, specially when being still covered by their warranty.
Personally, before assigning moisture as the culprit, I would at least open the vehicle, check continuity on the cables, see if there is moisture inside the connectors, check if disconnecting the rear module replicates the symptom, etc. Some of these tests may require to temporarily replace some parts in the process of discarding possible causes. There is so much to do before being able to conclude something reliable.

What about changing "EUC" by "EW"? something more simple and self-explanatory to designate the vehicles we have fun with? 

[GPSchile]

1 hour ago, 2disbetter said:

I do wonder why the fan comes on for the light? I mean how much power is getting pumped into that light? Does it REALLY need the cooling when in use? 

Yes it does. I have seen damage on the plastic of the front tower on some V11 that their owners use with the "silence mode" allways enabled. Not to catch fire but overtime the plastic presents deformations due to the heat. Just on my trips in high altitude (almost no vegetation) the vehicles, being black and having no shade available can get very hot to the touch. Therefore it seems important to properly dissipate the heat produced by these strong headlight.
My hypothesis is that the headlight, when used at 100% and on environments with high temperature, the fan should stay on for some seconds after turning off the vehicle. To dissipate that inertial heat kind of like the "turbo-timers".
It is just my opinion, the "silent mode" may increase this issue overtime and thus I recommend its use only occasionally.

[HEC]

5 minutes ago, GPSchile said:

I would recommend checking with the self-diagnose feature, upload the log file as close as possible in time with the event and contact the original dealer to address the case accordingly. Producing additional data with EUC World may help pin pointing the cause faster.

I always recommend both whenever any unusual behaviour is being reported by anyone. Without captured data and possible replication of said behaviour all we do is either an educated guess or simply just shooting in the dark. I've also got into habit of logging my rides via EUC World, especially with new wheel. And yes, correlation doesn't imply (or prove) causality.

Hopefully Inmotion will be able to investigate diagnostic logs and pinpoint the most likely source of this unusual behaviour. For now it seems to happen while not moving, so at least that's somehow good news, though rider might be still standing on the wheel, lets say on traffic lights, at which case the unexpected shutdown can still result in injury. Hopefully we'll know soon.

[HEC]

3 minutes ago, GPSchile said:

the fan should stay on for some seconds after turning off the vehicle.

This might (or not) be possible to implement by firmware update, as long as the fans are controlled separately from main headlights. However if they are simply powered togetger, it would require minor hardware add on to allow that. Either way, worth communicating to Inmotion as potential issue and possible QoL improvement. 

[GPSchile]

1 hour ago, HEC said:

The headlight is strong, rated at 18 W, consisting of two 3 segment LED chips, and with fairly "minuscule" heatsink and two 40 mm screaming fans. Frankly, I'd prefer much larger heatsink and no fans (as I'm not really big fan of fans in portable outdoor devices) or at least with under-voltage running fans to minimize the noise. I'll be looking into both increasing the size of headlight's heatsink as well as either replacing the fans by quiet ones or at least decreasing the voltage a bit as I always ride with headlights on even during the day for increased safety. 

My choice - silent and only 1 third of power consumption (plus could be even quieter with included LNA):

 

I would also check too other features as well: 1) thrust power (sometimes difficult due to lack of specific or reliable data)
and 2) environment resistance. I have no idea what fan is included on V13. My V13 have not arrived yet. But on V11 last time I checked, Inmotion is provided by LEJOWE (aka https://lejowe1010peter.en.ec21.com) They have experience in producing water-resistant products. I prefer a fan that is water-resistant despite the noise. A personal choice due to the way I use my vehicles. My V11 has even got submersed for some seconds (accidentally) and just the taillight board got damaged. I like that.

[GPSchile]

2 minutes ago, HEC said:

This might (or not) be possible to implement by firmware update, as long as the fans are controlled separately from main headlights. However if they are simply powered togetger, it would require minor hardware add on to allow that. Either way, worth communicating to Inmotion as potential issue and possible QoL improvement. 

In fact on V11 (no idea on V13) you can turn on the fan at will (non related to the headlight) as a precautionary manual setup when going to face extreme riding under high temperatures.  Also on V10F we can turn on the fan manually at will.
So it should be able to be firmware implemented just like a turbotimer on turbo diesel cars.

Another idea? Just like the "turning calibration" command on the app and on the screen of V12, it should be something automatic. Most Inmotion EUCs don not need to be leveled for this. Just parked we can send the command to do that calibration. However, this could be done automatically when being charged. The mainboard is on, the IMU can confirm the vehicle is steady and it could trigger this command lets say every 10 charging cycles. DJI drones even calibrate their camera gimbals each time they are set on. So there are more features that could be improved by firmware coding if there is still available memory on these microprocessors. 

Same with the spin-kill button of V13. We should hold-press for 2 seconds until a beep acknowledging the more motor or stabilization has been disengage. to be able to use all the hand when lifting it. Then a single touch or perhaps the same press&hold to disable the button. I am sorry, I got out into my brainstorm mode. It happens to me quite often. 

[HEC]

31 minutes ago, GPSchile said:

I would also check too other features as well: 1) thrust power (sometimes difficult due to lack of specific or reliable data)
and 2) environment resistance. I have no idea what fan is included on V13. My V13 have not arrived yet. But on V11 last time I checked, Inmotion is provided by LEJOWE (aka https://lejowe1010peter.en.ec21.com) They have experience in producing water-resistant products. I prefer a fan that is water-resistant despite the noise. A personal choice due to the way I use my vehicles. My V11 has even got submersed for some seconds (accidentally) and just the taillight board got damaged. I like that.

The link you provided is no longer valid. But I think the V13 is using same (or at least similar) fans as V11 by Lejowe.

Noctua NF-A4x20 FLX (https://noctua.at/pub/media/blfa_files/infosheet/noctua_nf_a4x20_flx_datasheet_en_web.pdf) have Airflow of 9,4 m³/h and Static pressure of 2,26 mm H₂0, both of which are fairly high values. In regads of moisture resistance it's not specified as it's intended for internal use. So yes, it might not be as resilient, but with completely sealed bearings and 6 years warranty there is good chance it will survive well beyond the expected ownership of the whole wheel...

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by HEC

[GPSchile]

@HEC about the torque of the bolts, I have not receive information form Inmotion about the torque strength. Also, it does not mean they do not exist and I may be wrong, but I have not seen "torque sheets" from any EUC manufacturer. I would expect someday to see these technical documents showing not just the type of bolts, their torque and class of threadlocker but the torque range as well, just like with cars. But on their absence I had produced my own. I guided myself with general torque tables relating thickness and bolt material, together with empiric observation. Every of my EUC is checked prior delivery with a precision torque wrench. I is not unusual to find some motor bolt loose and I do not like risks. These vehicles will not become massively used if we have high levels of accidents.
All my customers have a free checkup after a month or 150km (and free man work for 6 month regardless of the nature of their issues).
This helps me to check the bolts and get the feedback I need about how slight differences on torque among vehicles have performed. With this protocol, I have produced my own torque tables for several EUC models.
Now about the V13 motor bolts, I saw somebody recommending 17nm? is that right?  It does look extreme to me unless verifying with the manufacturer that the female piece (with the holes) is made of a similar class 12.9 material.
For the motor bolts of V11, I use 6nm + 2 drops of Locktite222 on the bolts. The thread of the motor uses a steel helicoil system that may work well also with locktite242 but 222 has proven to be enough and not create troubles when servicing.
Again, it is just my opinion, but for V13 unless getting a specific instruction or data from Inmotion, I will start testing my V13 bolts with 10nm and 2 drops of Locktite242.

[HEC]

1 minute ago, GPSchile said:

I have not receive information form Inmotion about the torque strength

It's 18 N.m as per just released Inmotion statement posted here:

 

[HEC]

15 minutes ago, GPSchile said:

Now about the V13 motor bolts, I saw somebody recommending 17nm? is that right?  It does look extreme to me unless verifying with the manufacturer that the female piece (with the holes) is made of a similar class 12.9 material.

The 17 N.m value came from (now confirmed incorrect) "replacement" bolt specs sheet shared by eWheels. And yes, torque force needs to be adjusted to all criteria involved in process, i.e. bolt itself, material it's being fastened into, any objects in between (washers, panels etc.) and intended purpose / function of the specific fastener point.

15 minutes ago, GPSchile said:

2 drops of Locktite242

Would you happen to know difference between 242 and 243? To be honest I'm totally lost by Loctite's numbering and got 243 based on recommendation of supplier of some other equipment (walking trailer).

Edited February 21, 2023 by HEC

[GPSchile]

47 minutes ago, HEC said:

The link you provided is no longer valid. But I think the V13 is using same (or at least similar) fans as V11 by Lejowe.

Noctua NF-A4x20 FLX (https://noctua.at/pub/media/blfa_files/infosheet/noctua_nf_a4x20_flx_datasheet_en_web.pdf) have Airflow of 9,4 m³/h and Static pressure of 2,26 mm H₂0, both of which are fairly high values. In regads of moisture resistance it's not specified as it's intended for internal use. So yes, it might not be as resilient, but with completely sealed bearings and 6 years warranty there is good chance it will survive well beyond the expected ownership of the whole wheel...

 

Thanks so much for sharing.  About the noise has anybody tried to use something like SuperLube? Bearings are under the sticker. Perhaps it helps with the noise.

[HEC]

3 minutes ago, GPSchile said:

About the noise has anybody tried to use something like SuperLube? Bearings are under the sticker. Perhaps it helps with the noise.

The noise is not only down to bearings but also highly dependent on type and quality of materials used for frame and blades as well as shape of blades and air duct. You get what you pay for.

[GPSchile]

52 minutes ago, HEC said:

It's 18 N.m as per just released Inmotion statement posted here:

 

It is a lot of torque for a M6 bolt. Thanks for sharing, I did received it but did not paid attention to that info. Anyway it does not hurt if I double check with them.

Edited February 21, 2023 by GPSchile

[HEC]

1 minute ago, GPSchile said:

It is a lot of torque for a M6 bolt. Thanks for sharing, I did not received that document.

I agree, especially with aluminium slider frame in between. 18 N.m is basically at top range of maximum torque of M6 grade 12.9 bolt alone. I'd expect it to be more around 12 or 14 tops.

[GPSchile]

30 minutes ago, HEC said:

I agree, especially with aluminium slider frame in between. 18 N.m is basically at top range of maximum torque of M6 grade 12.9 bolt alone. I'd expect it to be more around 12 or 14 tops.

exactly... it is the very top. Just deltas from production may expose to unnecessary risks considering that the forces are mostly transversal (90º, with torsion rather than traction forces) and we have bolts on both sides (cancelling traction forces). Therefore the function of these bolts rely more on the material rather than a high torque. As long as the bolts do not get loose it should be enough. Anyway, some real world testing may contribute to increase the accuracy, just as with previous models.
If the axle uses helicoil systems I would start with just 10nm and the threadlocker (242/243) because it is a strong metal but not as strong as the bolt itself. No idea (yet) if the axle of V13 uses helicoils. If it is solid, perhaps starting with higher torque (12nm). However I prefer to test and repeat testing rather than risking overtorquing the axle threads. Its always easier to fix when it is loose, compared to fix a damaged axle thread. Even replacing damaged helicoils sometimes its a nightmare. I am double checking with Inmotion anyway. Being their warranty, I have to follow their instructions and asking does not hurt.

About thread-lockers 242 and 243 not at all. I do use 243 of course. No difference noticed at all (and both are class "blue").
However I recommend to stay away from "red" threadlocker", 263 or higher grades. Not just due to higher difficulties for periodic services, but their lesser compatibility with aluminum.
I have some background with the nautical world  (I made my own sailboat and part of my professional life was working on scientific survey cruises and living in a ship as its senior scientist). From that experience, I noticed "red" is not very friendly with aluminum. Red is for copper, brass and steel. Stay "blue" for the motor, and "purple" (222) for often servicing bolts. Being at sea I can confirm that threadlocker is not just to prevent getting loose bolts with vibration, but also preventing galvanic currents and/or erosion between the different metals. For example, alluminum plates being fastened by stainless steel bolts, start showing damage on the aluminum in contact with the bolts soon after being exposed to saltwater. We even use grease to somehow help isolating the metals. Rust works day and night. A product I use with good results protecting from rust, is CorrosionX. Takes time to "dry" producing a protective green film, but works very well. Perhaps you know it.

[HEC]

31 minutes ago, GPSchile said:

No idea (yet) if the axle of V13 uses helicoils.

Have a look here if you can see that from teardown images:

https://ecodrift-ru.translate.goog/2023/01/17/inmotion-v13-challenger-razbiraem/?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=ru&_x_tr_pto=wapp

[Punxatawneyjoe]

4 hours ago, HEC said:

The link you provided is no longer valid.

http://www.lejowe.com/en/c2231.html

pretty sure it's the 25 cmf models

[HEC]

1 hour ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

http://www.lejowe.com/en/c2231.html

pretty sure it's the 25 cmf models

Thanks. But the one you linked is 4028, while V13 is using pair of 4020 fans.

LD4020B12H: http://www.lejowe.com/en/c2215.html

(Maximal) Air pressure 16,67 mm H₂O, Airflow 14,01 cfm (= 23,8 m³/h), Noise 45,0 dB, 12000 RPM, 0,16 A

Noctua NF-A4x20 FLX:

https://noctua.at/pub/media/blfa_files/infosheet/noctua_nf_a4x20_flx_datasheet_en_web.pdf

Static pressure of 2,26 mm H₂0, Airflow of 9,4 m³/h, Noise 14,9 dB, 5000 RPM, Current 0,05 A

So the Airflow is about 2,5 lower on Noctua, RPM 2,4 times lower, with 1 third of the noise and power consumption. I don't see the Air pressure that critical here as the air is pulled though very tiny heatsink and pushed in basically large semi-open space with minimal flow resistance. With 2 Noctua fans running the overall airflow will be 18,8 m³/h (11 cfm), which i believe should be more than sufficient for 18 W light.

In case of Lejowe fans I'd say M, most likely even L version would be more than sufficient for this application and most of all noticeably quieter. Does V11 have also 2 fans or just one? Perhaps Inmotion simply used the same fans just because they have them in stock ...

Edited February 21, 2023 by HEC

[GPSchile]

2 hours ago, HEC said:

Have a look here if you can see that from teardown images:

https://ecodrift-ru.translate.goog/2023/01/17/inmotion-v13-challenger-razbiraem/?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=ru&_x_tr_pto=wapp

a lot of details on these photos. Now I like V13 even better. Everything can always be improved but this is awesome.
To the point, I do see what seems to be Helicoils on the motor axle. This tend to support our opinion about 18nm. These threaded inserts are made of stainless steel (strong but not like the bolt's material). Locktite 243 adds about 3nm on M6 bolts (I checked Henkel's specification). So with 10nm we should reach a sufficient resistance to get loose. Anyway, I contacted Inmotion about this issue.

I like that Inmotion uses Helicoils because they are strong (providing higher endurance to soft materials like aluminum) and in case of damages, they can be replaced, recovering the original thread size without messing with solid inserts on the axle and making again the thread.
BTW I mention "Helicoils" but of course there are other brands of the same type of threaded inserts products. They are cheap and kind of "easy" to work with.

Edited February 21, 2023 by GPSchile

[mrelwood]

The V11 fan operates mostly for the headlight, but in my understanding it does go off if the controller overheats even if the headlight were off. And I just confirmed that the fan blows away from the headlight, towards the controller housing. The housing cover is a solid piece of metal, bolted against the large metal thermal block that the mosfets as well are directly bolted to. Therefore cooling the cover should cool the mosfets as well.

 In another thread someone had checked the fan fins on the V13, and said that they as well should blow away from the headlight, towards the controller. Sounds like the V13 thermal system is very similar to that of the V11.

[HEC]

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

In another thread someone had checked the fan fins on the V13, and said that they as well should blow away from the headlight, towards the controller. Sounds like the V13 thermal system is very similar to that of the V11.

Yes, it's clearly visible in teardown images by ECO Drift. But V11 have only 1 fan, correct? 

[mrelwood]

16 minutes ago, HEC said:

But V11 have only 1 fan, correct? 

Yes.

[Uras]

On 2/21/2023 at 6:06 PM, 2disbetter said:

Now as to what is happening on the wheel; my guess: the batteries, BMS, or control board got too cold. Most likely the batteries. The BMS detects this and in an effort to protect the batteries just will not turn on. However, it is only doing this when it is safe to do it. (IE: when the user has turned the wheel off.)

battery chemistry (for the lithium variants) gets more sluggish as it gets colder; typically not good to use at 0 degrees C (32 Fahrenheit). Same goes for charging.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Uras

[HEC]

So ... Moment ago the shipping status suddenly updated to "Estimated delivery: Tuesday,  February 28 by End of Day" while under Shipment Progress the last entry listed is still "Investigation Opened" from last Friday. I was also chatting with my reseller yesterday and he confirmed that he'll send the replacement bolts provided by Inmotion. Also, in case the current parcel is lost or damaged, he will send replacement instead of refund. So, hopefully light at the end of the tunnel...

[Forwardnbak]

Mine is just up the road at the dealer. We are just waiting to hear when the bolts have been sorted and I’ll go collect it.