Is this range as expected? (KS-16X)

[JohnnyWheels]

Hey guys,

So I know that 'estimated range' provided by the manufacturer is always way off compared to reality scenarios, as they will often use a child weighing 40 pounds, and riding the wheel at 5 mph in a vacuum to gain the most range to put on the package ^^

BUT, I´m just wondering if anyone could sort of verify, or at least give some feedback to my battery usage on my KS-16X from the other day. I was just a bit surprised of how much battery was used on a relative short trip.

I started at 100% battery (81 volts), and rode 10,41 km, max speed 42,2 km/h, average speed 28 km/h. I weigh 90 kg, and there was some head wind the entire trip. No steep inclines really, just short ones. Trip took 23 minutes.
When I arrived, it was down to 85%   

I rode the same way back, no head wind this time, max speed 45 km/h, average speed still 28 km/h. 
When I came home the battery was at 65% (78,1 volts).

Total trip: 21,12 km. Battery usage: 35%. So with that type of riding, I´m looking at a realistic range of what, 60 km?

Is this within the norm, or is it irregular? 

Side note: I do run with a bit soft tyre pressure due to the wheel being less squirmy then, and it soaks bumps really well. I think i´m between 30-35 psi. 

Thanks in advance for any feedback

[atdlzpae]

Percentages are awfully unreliable. Especially since you don't know when the wheel will start annoying you with beeps and tiltbacks. On some wheels it's around 30%, on some it's around 10%...

To know full distance you need to do a real distance test. Not necessarily in one trip, it can be several. Then and only then you'll know for real.

My MSX (also 1.6kWh) originally could do 60km on a single charge with a 130kg rider. As a 90kg you should get like 10km more. Measure the range in practice, percentages by themselves lie.

Edited June 29, 2021 by atdlzpae

[Doug Hnut]

i get about 70km, avg speed ~28kph, 35psi, 80kg with my 16x. i also was not impressed with the range. and according to eucworld i was using ~22 Wh/km.

81V is a bit low, possible something wrong with your charger. should be 83-84V. you can measure the output of the charger to confirm. or it could fine

[.....]

Sounds about right, considering you werent at a full charge. 81v IS a tad low. I can't offer any better information than what has been stated. I can  add that  My SCOOTER didnt charge quite fully for the first few battery cycles. If the wheel is VERY new, you may want to hold off opinions of your max range, until you get some charge/discharge cycles. My 18L 84v 1036ah gets me right around 25-30 miles of street speed before it begins to throttle. I think 35-40miles is max. These numbers and yours sound somewhat similar.  I'm 130lbs and ride at 30psi.

Edited June 29, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[JohnnyWheels]

Hmm.. I see people commenting on the voltage..

The wheel is indeed new, only rolled 180 km. So it needs some use before the charge improves? Cause the wheel was charging all through the night, and charger light was obviously green the next day.

Should I be conserned about my charger?

[Denny Paul]

5 minutes ago, JohnnyWheels said:

Hmm.. I see people commenting on the voltage..

The wheel is indeed new, only rolled 180 km. So it needs some use before the charge improves? Cause the wheel was charging all through the night, and charger light was obviously green the next day.

Should I be conserned about my charger?

Yeah, if it’s reading 81v through the app that’s out of tolerance. Testing with someones known to be working charger, or buying one with a voltmeter built in would be the next steps I would take.

If it refuses to charge past 80 volts, that’s indicative of a more serious battery issue. So it’d be wise to rule that out soon with another charger. 

[JohnnyWheels]

I have no clue about electricity (volts, amps, whatts 😊). 

Is there any charger to recommend getting, that doesnt need a ton of settings? Thinking about a better/faster than the original one..

[Denny Paul]

36 minutes ago, JohnnyWheels said:

I have no clue about electricity (volts, amps, whatts 😊). 

Is there any charger to recommend getting, that doesnt need a ton of settings? Thinking about a better/faster than the original one..

oh no worries there. I was the same until I got into these wheels and even still my understanding is very basic.

even the fully loaded smart chargers have only 2-3 settings, and they're very simple. Stuff like 110v to or 220v (set it to 220 i think for EU then never touch it again), how much battery percent you want the charger to stop at 80, 90, or 100%, and finally what rate you want to charge at, which is in amps. That's it. And they're all physical switches, not convoluted by some electronically buried settings

here's what i'm talking about: https://www.ewheels.com/product/ewheels-84-2v-rapid-chargers/

That's the kind of charger id try to find. It's great that you can charge slow with it, or fast if you need it. It's also nice cause it tells you the voltage as it's charging to. As long as the voltage on the charger read 84v or close to when it's done charging, you're good to go. This is from ewheels, based in the US, and they don't do international shipping sadly. I could not see any from the dealers I know of in the EU, but I don't know all the EU dealers at all. Maybe you'll have better luck searching on your own. If you cant find one with the voltmeter, i'd just get a new stock charger since they're much cheaper, and using only a fast charger isn't ideal for battery health. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Denny Paul

[meepmeepmayer]

These range figures sound very plausible.

81V isn't 100% (typo?). The maximum voltage (as seen by an app) should be about 84V.

If the wheel is new, don't forget it's your seller's job to fix a bad charger (or - worst case - battery/wheel). Not your job to pay money for a new charger or other fix.

If you indeed can't charge to full (~84V), figure out why.

[.....]

1 hour ago, JohnnyWheels said:

Hmm.. I see people commenting on the voltage..

The wheel is indeed new, only rolled 180 km. So it needs some use before the charge improves? Cause the wheel was charging all through the night, and charger light was obviously green the next day.

Should I be conserned about my charger?

Overnight with green light and only 81v? Yes, I would be concerned. Its not uncommon for the reported voltage to the apps to be +/-1V or so, but 3 is too much. Either your charger isnt putting out the proper voltage or your batteries arent accepting it. Charger is way easier and cheaper to check. I use an e-wheels charger, but any half assed charger that does what its supposed to, should still be at 84v (a little more for charge actually). As @meepmeepmayer mentions. A working charger is part of the responsibility of your seller (if new). I'd make them send another charger first, as if its more than that and under warranty, it'll be a much larger pita.

*fwiw. my scooter was still within -1.5v of battery capacity, when I mentioned it took a few cycles to get up to the 67V it was supposed to be. The rest of my wheels are both +/- 1volt or so, depending on which charger I use and what day of the week it is...  I also dont leave chargers on unattended overnight

Edited June 29, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[m365ww]

Hello JohnnyWheels,

Do you have a dial on your charger with "100%, 90% and 80%" labeled on it?  Unless this is blind luck, I believe you do because you have a new wheel/battery.  The individual battery packs you have are at 4.2V when 100% charged and approximately 4.05V when 80% charged.  You have 84V when you have 100% charged the 20 battery packs, so:  4.2V x 20 = 84V.  When you have 80% charged, then:  4.05V x 20 = 81V.

So, either you have your charger set to 80%, a bad charger or a bad battery that can only charge to 80% capacity.  Your battery is only as strong as the weakest individual battery pack.  Hopefully it's the charger.  Oh, and ShanesPlanet is correct in stating that you should not leave chargers plugged in overnight due to fire hazard and degradation of battery life.

On another note, here's a good graph that shows why everyone says to charge near 80%:

"SoC" is state of charge, so the first one (black) charged to 100%, then discharged to 25%.  So, for example, if you charge your battery 100-25% (assuming same battery characteristics), then after 3500 cycles your battery only charges to approximately 80%.  All batteries have different charge characteristics ($$$), but the graph gives you a general idea of Li-ion battery life characteristics vs SoC.

[Tawpie]

10 hours ago, JohnnyWheels said:

Total trip: 21,12 km. Battery usage: 35%. So with that type of riding, I´m looking at a realistic range of what, 60 km?

To me, that seems too low. I only weigh 55 kg but easily get over 100 km per charge unless I’m averaging 35 kmph (and that has only happened once). Double the weight on flat ground shouldn’t hurt your range that much.

With the low voltage after charging overnight I’m thinking something is wrong with your battery pack and would be in touch with your reseller as quickly as you can. The 6 month battery warranty starts when the wheel leaves the factory.

[OldFartRides]

10 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

....  I also dont leave chargers on unattended overnight

+ one.

[mrelwood]

 

5 hours ago, m365ww said:

On another note, here's a good graph that shows why everyone says to charge near 80%:

And here’s why everyone keeps killing the idea of 80% charging (it doesn’t let the cells balance, which is an absolute necessity for multiple cells in series):

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/search/?q=Battery cell balancing&updated_after=any&sortby=relevancy&search_and_or=and

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/18317-battery-faq/

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/12650-battery-degradation/?tab=comments#comment-214089

And so on and so on.

 

4 hours ago, Tawpie said:

The 6 month battery warranty starts when the wheel leaves the factory.

 

That wouldn’t make much sense. A wheel can sit 6 months in the seller’s storage, the seller still has to fulfill the warranty just like they would with a customer receiving a fresh wheel. The warranty at least in EU starts when the customer receives the product. I wonder if some reseller has tricked themselves out from providing warranty by telling you otherwise.

[m365ww]

17 hours ago, mrelwood said:

And here’s why everyone keeps killing the idea of 80% charging (it doesn’t let the cells balance, which is an absolute necessity for multiple cells in series):

Yup, very much so.  Need to charge to 100% and allow time to finish balancing.  Not sure why anybody would "kill" either idea of charging as it's a good idea to utilize both (balance your battery regularly).  Battery storage degradation is highest at full charge, so using the EUC right after 100% charge would be ideal.  My apologies if you already know this info.  My intention was to visually explain to JohnnyWheels the reason why there are charge percentage dials on some higher-end chargers.  Hope it made sense to him!

[Tawpie]

On 6/29/2021 at 10:14 PM, mrelwood said:

That wouldn’t make much sense.

Not to the consumer, of course not. But it’s there in print on my owners pamphlet and here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

Warranty

Limited warranty

Manufacturer, Kingsong Intell Co., LTD warrants the EUC by following limits. Motor, motherboard for 365 days from the item departure from factory. Battery package for 183 days from the item departure from factory. The warranty is valid only within a total mileage of 2000km

source: https://support.euco.us/article/151-king-song-16x-user-manual

EU regulations probably override this, but for me in ‘merka anyway, this is what applies. I am clueless about warranties over there!

Edited July 1, 2021 by Tawpie

[mrelwood]

In case of EUCO, I would check their warranty as well. They’re after all the one that takes care of all warranty situations for their customers. It’s not uncommon for the manufacturer’s and the distributors warranties to be different. If EUCO was only relying on KS’s warranty, they would be selling wheels with a random warranty from a full year all the way down to 0 days. I don’t think that would go through even in the U.S. 

[mrelwood]

8 hours ago, m365ww said:

Yup, very much so.  Need to charge to 100% and allow time to finish balancing.  Not sure why anybody would "kill" either idea of charging as it's a good idea to utilize both (balance your battery regularly).

Storing is a different case, sure. For that I’ve seen recommendations between 40% and 80%.

 The 80% charging is usually advertised as a way to prolong battery lifetime when in use. For that it simply doesn’t work on an EUC. The 300 full charge cycles it takes to degrade the capacity to 70-80% requires something like 20000-30000km of riding, so charging to 100% every single time will not shorten the battery life in practice.

 But no-one knows how long it takes for the batteries to be considered being in “storage”. My guess is that a few days at 100% will do no practical harm.

Anyway, I didn’t want to leave any possibility for future readers to misunderstand the pros and cons of 80% charging. It’s done enough harm already!