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V11 1.2.1 firmware --> cutout


birdmentin
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Just a warning to anyone considering upgrading to 1.2.1. Maybe don't do it... 

Had a cutout at around 25 mph, less than a mile into the ride after updating the firmware. Got a little road rash on my hip but I was fully geared up so my body is ok for the most part. Diagnosis says the wheel is 100%, but the front end is pretty much destroyed.

Ride safe! Gear up! 

 

V11 crash .HEIC

Edited by birdmentin
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What? 1.2.1 has been out for months and most people are on this version already.

I don't think your cutout had anything to do with the firmware version.

Can you share any more details about the incident? Did you hear any beeps?

Was it a hard acceleration? Any other logs active? Max current reached?

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Totally flat ground. Not accelerating very hard at all, and it happened about 50 yards after getting up to a comfortable speed at the beginning of a ride. 

The only thing I can think of that was out of the norm is that after the update the bluetooth connection was going in and out. Is it possible that the bluetooth connected and the wheel cutout for an instant when that happened? I use the inmotion app... The ride doesn't come up in my "Riding Record" on the app so I couldn't tell ya exactly how fast I was going or what the voltage was. 

I often crank on this wheel way harder than what I was doing at the time of the crash. 

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I'm sorry about your accident. Sucks when it happens and it can make you lose confidence in the wheel.

That's why I have set up euc world to auto start logging when I'm connected. This way if a cutout / overlean happens I can find if it was perhaps user error (so that I can still trust my wheel) or wheel error (and I have to come in contact with my seller / manufacturer).

 

I don't believe that the bluetooth module can interact with the wheel in such a catastrophic way.

 

How much does the batteries charge? As in the maximum voltage you see.

Also do both bms report the same voltage? Maybe one is unbalanced, so you only had one battery side operating?

A friend of mine suffered a cutout on the v11 at 33km/h. The batteries didn't reach 84v and the 2 bms were severely unbalanced.

That's a screenshot from him few days before the cutout. The packs managed to reach the same voltage after few days, but the cutout also happened.

Before that he was reporting excessive battery drain compared to the mileage he was doing.

All in all this happened within the first weeks he had the wheel and there was something obviously wrong with the batteries / bms from the start, so it was not something that made me worry for my v11.

 

IMG_20210309_233406_568.jpg

Edited by Freestyler
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I had a full charge when i took off, and it happened less than a mile in. I rode it back (slowly). 

In the "about vehicle" section on the inmotion app it's now reading 93%, battery voltage 81.9V, charging voltage 0.6 

Battery 1 is reading 81.9V, and battery 2 81.8V. Seems good. 

IMG_4101.jpg

Edited by birdmentin
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Where you offroad? Could it have been some tire slippage that cutout the wheel? As you said you dont know how fast you where actually going, if you where even close to 30 and hit a patch of loose sand/gravel/mud the wheel could spin up rapidly and cutout.  Similar to hitting a bump and losing ground contact, that unresisted acceleration really spins up fast especially if your already at speed. 

The fact that you rode it home makes me think that it was an overlean cutout and not a mechanical malfunction.  Had something shorted or come loose you probably couldn't ride it. 

Just to add, the v11 does not really like to be cranked on. I can feel its resistance to being accelerated over 25 mph. I know people say they ride it 35 mph but imo thats a ticking time bomb to push the v11 to those speeds constantly. Its just not designed to be a sporty wheel. It has smaller mosfets than something like a sherman, has smaller battery capacity than an msp, and is only 84 volts compared to the more performance driven 100v wheels. For these reasons i personally do not use the "fancier mode" setting.  If i was like 150 lbs or less i might use the fancier mode, but if your a bigger guy (im 200lbs) imo its not really optimized for someone my size. 

Edited by GoGeorgeGo
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@birdmentin If you were full charge and less than a mile in, perhaps it was a case of braking regen, as enough brake regen current triggers all EUC BMS to cutout the current to the full battery to protect from over regen charging. This would apply if you had downhill and/or moderate or higher braking.

Edited by houseofjob
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I've heard this wheel is not kind to big people, but I was 280 LBS + when I first started riding this wheel.  I constantly push to 30MPH + , hit as high as 34 but dialed it down to 30.  I'm 260LBs now but I push this wheel HARD.  Never an indication of struggle.  I have a 3rd batch wheel.

Being these devices are electronics, could be something as Jinky as a cold solder joint that could be temp related, or hit a bump that temporarily lost continuity.  Anything different about this ride that you can think of, Temperature, moisture.  Where do you store your wheel when you don't ride.

 

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7 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

@birdmentin If you were full charge and less than a mile in, perhaps it was a case of braking regen, as enough brake regen current triggers all EUC BMS to cutout the current to the full battery to protect from over regen charging. This would apply if you had downhill and/or moderate or higher braking.

yes for sure, I live surrounded by hills and this is a thing for me, I received alarms first few times until I figured out I was getting regen alarms for over voltage.  Now when full voltage I go out of my way to climb a few hills before the decent just to avoid.

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I do find it fascinating that these wheels do not log real-time errors or events on their own, and we have to manually enable them through 3rd party apps.  I bet there is some kind of blackbox logging the wheel does to debug.

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1 hour ago, Rich Sam said:

I've heard this wheel is not kind to big people, but I was 280 LBS + when I first started riding this wheel.  I constantly push to 30MPH + , hit as high as 34 but dialed it down to 30.  I'm 260LBs now but I push this wheel HARD.  Never an indication of struggle.  I have a 3rd batch wheel.

Being these devices are electronics, could be something as Jinky as a cold solder joint that could be temp related, or hit a bump that temporarily lost continuity.  Anything different about this ride that you can think of, Temperature, moisture.  Where do you store your wheel when you don't ride.

 

Its the torqueing thats more of a problem then the actual speed. You can get 35 mph if your gentle and slowly accelerate, but most people have torque syndrome and cant help hit crank on the wheel lol. Its that cranking over torqueing thats far more worrisome than the top speed. It just requires less and less demand to over torque the wheel the closer you are to those upper limits

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Just now, GoGeorgeGo said:

Its the torqueing thats more of a problem then the actual speed. You can get 35 mph if your gentle and slowly accelerate, but most people have torque syndrome and cant help hit crank on the wheel lol. Its that cranking over torqueing thats far more worrisome than the top speed. It just requires less and less demand to over torque the wheel the closer you are to those upper limits

Granted I don't think I go all Kuji Rolls and lay horizontal when I take off!  But I do hit it pretty hard.  I used to have Speed Triple Motorcycle and I Love adrenaline!  Based on a few folk's advice I set up amperage pull alarms in EUC World so I do back off when I spike 54 AMP pulls.  But that is not that easy for me to get, in fact, I'm not sure if I ever pulled 54 AMPS on a takeoff.  I heard 60 amps is the danger zone from veteran V11 owners.

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Thanks for chiming in with your thoughts everybody. Yeah, the braking regen could be it. I had a full charge, then immediately went down a couple big hills to start. 

I seriously doubt I overcranked it, or hit any loose gravel. I've had this wheel up over 30 mph a lot, and I really doubt I was going that fast. The overpower tiltback has been pretty dependable in the past. 

I've been in communication with Drew at Ewheels about it. He had me upload a diagnosis report to Inmotion. They'll report to him what they find and he'll get back to me with the info. It'll be interesting to find out what happened. That's a pretty cool feature that Inmotion has developed for the V11. 

Fwiw, I'm usually able to lean pretty hard on the V11 at slower and medium speeds. I most often feel the tilt back when going fast or accelerating up hills. Gotta give the wheel some credit for its durability. It somersaulted down the road several times. Lost some plastic bits from the nose area in front of the heat sink. It's not quite as wrecked as I had originally thought. I haven't really ridden it besides the half mile trip home, but it fires up just fine and everything has been working normally. The light is fully in tact. 

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Ok, I have an update on the cutout. I was going way too fast, lol. The Inmotion app updated my trip history and showed it cutout at 35.7 mph. Whoops! 

Lessons learned:

-wear hip protection

-replace the low toned beeps on the V11 (which are very tough for me to hear) with a high pitched whistle 

-make sure my next wheel is more powerful and has a higher top speed 

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2 hours ago, birdmentin said:

Ok, I have an update on the cutout. I was going way too fast, lol. The Inmotion app updated my trip history and showed it cutout at 35.7 mph. Whoops! 

Lessons learned:

-wear hip protection

-replace the low toned beeps on the V11 (which are very tough for me to hear) with a high pitched whistle 

-make sure my next wheel is more powerful and has a higher top speed 

Perception vs. Reality

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I still don't get it. On a full charge, hitting 35 miles/h on the v11 shouldn't be a reason for cutout if it was done in a smooth manner.

 

And from what I understand you were even going downhill (because you previously mentioned that over voltage might be the reason.

So far every incident of an overlean I've read about, the author severely underestimated how much he pushed the wheel. Do you have power graph from the inmotion app trip?

 

Here's a speed run from me where I'm maintaining 35 miles/h without even exceeding the nominal power output of the motor (2200watt).

 

 

Telemetry data: https://euc.world/tour/5948624663961

 

Was I wrong to assume that I wasn't even close to overpowering the wheel or are there other factors at play here that I'm missing / are not visible in the graph? (Such as back emf, reducing the available voltage in the motor)

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8 hours ago, Freestyler said:

I still don't get it. On a full charge, hitting 35 miles/h on the v11 shouldn't be a reason for cutout if it was done in a smooth manner.

 

And from what I understand you were even going downhill (because you previously mentioned that over voltage might be the reason.

So far every incident of an overlean I've read about, the author severely underestimated how much he pushed the wheel. Do you have power graph from the inmotion app trip?

 

Here's a speed run from me where I'm maintaining 35 miles/h without even exceeding the nominal power output of the motor (2200watt).

 

 

Telemetry data: https://euc.world/tour/5948624663961

 

Was I wrong to assume that I wasn't even close to overpowering the wheel or are there other factors at play here that I'm missing / are not visible in the graph? (Such as back emf, reducing the available voltage in the motor)

You can hear the V11’s audible alert in your video. I assume it was tilting you back as well.

Edited by EUC_user
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9 hours ago, Freestyler said:

I still don't get it. On a full charge, hitting 35 miles/h on the v11 shouldn't be a reason for cutout if it was done in a smooth manner.

 

And from what I understand you were even going downhill (because you previously mentioned that over voltage might be the reason.

So far every incident of an overlean I've read about, the author severely underestimated how much he pushed the wheel. Do you have power graph from the inmotion app trip?

 

Here's a speed run from me where I'm maintaining 35 miles/h without even exceeding the nominal power output of the motor (2200watt).

 

 

Telemetry data: https://euc.world/tour/5948624663961

 

Was I wrong to assume that I wasn't even close to overpowering the wheel or are there other factors at play here that I'm missing / are not visible in the graph? (Such as back emf, reducing the available voltage in the motor)

If you hear the beeps that means you are dangerously close to overpowering the wheel. Im a worry wort but honestly that video appears to be an extremely dangerous situation pushing the wheel that hard coming around a blind turn. If you had hit the ground any cars behind you might not have time to see you and stop before running you over. 

I know others disagree with me but just my opinion, the v11 is not made to be ridden that hard, its a beautiful cruiser of a wheel but riding any wheel near its limits is a bad idea. All it takes is a hard bump jump or slip to overpower the wheel at those speeds. Save the hard riding for something like a sherman with a cutout speed in excess of 50mph so when your doing 40 and hit a bump its no issue for the machine to recover . Again just me personally , i would not ride 35 mph on my v11 around vehicles, those are closed course speeds similar to pushing a veteran 50, you dont want to go 50 mph around cars, thats for closed course speed record testing situations not everyday riding. Its so easy to lose track of your speed or blindly hit a pothole or not hear the beep warnings, flirting with the limits constantly is just not advisable. Ive had the wheel beep me down at barely 25 mph on a windy day, its really not that powerful of a wheel 

Edited by GoGeorgeGo
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It is unfortunate that the companies who choose to limit their wheel's speed, for the purpose of rider safety I assume, then inflate the actual top speed putting their customers at a higher risk of cutout. 

I own a V11. I personally think it is a great wheel, but there is no way that I am trying to match the published top speed at 245lbs and 84V. I have/had several InMotion wheels and the stated top speed is never that, but they are/were still top notch wheels. 

 

 

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