MrRobot Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 (edited) Was working on changing my wheel's tire and the battery on the opposite side of the board fell out of the shell at one point. Can't easily open it up now though because it's all siliconed shut and would prefer to avoid that...For all I know it might be fine though and just the usual lithium drain from the colder weather and I'm just being paranoid I'll record a more detailed trip tomorrow to verify mileage. Would the wheel charge twice as fast with only one pack plugged in? If everything was working normally I want to say with the eWheel's quick charger it should charge about 4volts an hour at 5amp speed, do those numbers sound right? Is there any way to know both packs are working normally for sure like from an app? Edited February 23, 2020 by MrRobot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atdlzpae Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 Yes, the wheel would charge twice as fast and will have 50% of range. That's how you can tell. Actually, this happened to me on KS16S. One day I was surprised when I ran out of battery halfway... I had to go home by car, and bingo, one battery was broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 (edited) You can't tell from any app, as the wheel only reports the voltage, which doesn't tell you anything about the number of packs. You can do a range test, it should be pretty definitive (half the range). For checking, you only need to remove both side panels. It's no big deal, there should be no silicone in your way (only the pedals and the side panel screws) with the MSX. The left side (no-board side) battery pack connects on the left side to a cable which goes across the wheel to the other side into a Y connector. That's also what the right (board) side battery pack connects to. And this in turn is connected to the board. So four connectors to check (unless I'm mistaken, you will see). If one battery pack is disconnected, be careful plugging them back together as they now might have different voltages. Maybe charge the wheel to 100% with each of the packs disconnected respectively, so they are at the same charge state when you re-connect them. You can also test the wheel with each of the packs disconected, respectively, to see if both packs are good or one is bad (does not charge to 100%, does not work, ...). Edited February 23, 2020 by meepmeepmayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRobot Posted February 23, 2020 Author Share Posted February 23, 2020 1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said: You can't tell from any app, as the wheel only reports the voltage, which doesn't tell you anything about the number of packs. You can do a range test, it should be pretty definitive (half the range). For checking, you only need to remove both side panels. It's no big deal, there should be no silicone in your way (only the pedals and the side panel screws) with the MSX. The left side (no-board side) battery pack connects on the left side to a cable which goes across the wheel to the other side into a Y connector. That's also what the right (board) side battery pack connects to. And this in turn is connected to the board. So four connectors to check (unless I'm mistaken, you will see). If one battery pack is disconnected, be careful plugging them back together as they now might have different voltages. Maybe charge the wheel to 100% with each of the packs disconnected respectively, so they are at the same charge state when you re-connect them. You can also test the wheel with each of the packs disconected, respectively, to see if both packs are good or one is bad (does not charge to 100%, does not work, ...). Thanks for the advice. When I said it's all siliconed shut I meant I added silicone all around the inside and outside of the panels edges so it would be a bit of a pain in the ass to take it all off and do over again but I can if needed 😒 Will post a full range test tomorrow. It's supposed to be even warmer so I should be getting close to full range... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 5 hours ago, MrRobot said: Would the wheel charge twice as fast with only one pack plugged in? Only Stage 1 is twice as fadt - stage 2 will take about the same time. (from https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries ). 5 hours ago, MrRobot said: I'll record a more detailed trip tomorrow to verify mileage. That's the way to check - you'll get just half the milage with half the battery! One should also notice it from the "driving behaviour". 80% beeps will come "earlier". Should be a bit less "zippy" and overlean a bit easier. 1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said: If one battery pack is disconnected, be careful plugging them back together as they now might have different voltages. Maybe charge the wheel to 100% with each of the packs disconnected respectively, so they are at the same charge state when you re-connect them. Great Point! Better to check the voltage than the charge % as especially the 100% shown have a wide voltage range! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRobot Posted February 23, 2020 Author Share Posted February 23, 2020 (edited) Yeah I think something is wrong. Fully charged the wheel with the stock gotway charger overnight and I went for a full range test today. Stats: 200lb, 50f outside 10-15mph headwinds. Averaged 20-24mph for 1:46 never even heard a 80% alarm so I was go easy on it. 20 miles before euc world said I had 20% left when idle. Wheel log reported 36% remaining. Charger said 75 volts when I plugged it in. The "zippiness" definitely didn't seem to last as long either. Seems about half of what I used to get, 35-40 miles and it used to last around 2.5-3 hours... Guess I need to pry apart the silicone and open it up 😢 Edited February 23, 2020 by MrRobot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRobot Posted February 23, 2020 Author Share Posted February 23, 2020 Anyone know where the safest part of the msx shell cover would be to pry from with the least risk of cracking it? I silicone sealed (waterproofed) the whole thing so it's gonna be a bitch to get off 😅 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRobot Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) Alright so I managed to pry it open and tested both packs bypassing the y connector like you suggested @meepmeepmayer but they both power the wheel on and have the same voltage (and I let them sit for a minute to make sure it wasn't just from the capacitors) in wheellog and with the charger plugged in... Both are warm to the touch after letting the wheel fully charge. Checked (and unplugged and plugged back in) all other connectors and all seem good... I forgot to mention the wheel was involved in a crash a couple months back before I let it sit for winter (2 months at about 50%). Wheel went tumbling and bouncing and cracked both the side panels and dislodged the battery off the sticky backing on the motherboard side. Thought it was fine but there is a spot on the pack that looks slightly torn by where the wires come out... Maybe it knocked some cell connections loose inside the pack(s)?? 😭 Was hoping this was going to be an easy plug back in fix. How do I even go about troubleshooting this. None of this seems to make sense or point to an obvious point of failure... Edited February 24, 2020 by MrRobot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 Hmmm... this is such a specific issue, maybe your seller knows best? I can only guess. But if both packs work and charge/discharge the same, how can it be the battery packs? On the other hand, what else but the battery packs is left as a source of this issue now? I still wouldn't rule out the possibility that it's the board somehow. But I don't know. What you can do is carefully have a look at everything and systematically* check every single cable, connector, board component and whatever else there is. Maybe you see something. Maybe post some detailed photos if you think it might help. (*It's super easy to overlook even obvious damage if you don't systematically check every part there is.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 9 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: if both packs work and charge/discharge the same This would be the next step in testing if I had an issue like this. Having had the wheel sit over the winter at 50% can cause issues if the battery cell voltages are wildly uneven. It did on my 16S as well. It would explain the short range and rapid decline in pedal firmness. How much mileage do you have on the wheel? And have you balance charged the batteries by occasionally leaving the charger plugged in for a few hours after the charger LED turns green? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 @mrelwood You think this might just be serious battery imbalance? 50% capacity loss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRobot Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) I have about 3,500 miles, 1 year of use Edited February 24, 2020 by MrRobot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRobot Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) So if I understand it right this is how I'm testing one side and how I'm testing the other. Would this be the way to test each? Below is the image on me testing the pack on the opposite side of the motherboard Edited February 24, 2020 by MrRobot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRobot Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) Testing motherboard side pack Edited February 24, 2020 by MrRobot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRobot Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 I tested both packs like this... Voltage was identical on both sides by testing with charger plugged in and wheellog. Also tested self balancing and a max speed cut out with both sides by picking the wheel up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) 47 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: @mrelwood You think this might just be serious battery imbalance? 50% capacity loss? So far it’s the only thing I can come up with. Which doesn’t by itself account for much of course, but my 16S battery did behave like that when the imbalance was ruining the pack. 22 minutes ago, MrRobot said: Would this be the way to test each? Yes, with the addition of taping the open connectors well shut. And never forget, when reconnecting two packs together, the voltages must be close to eachother. 0.5V is generally recommended. Edit: You could do a range test on each battery separatedly. That might tell us something. But don’t ride or accelerate fast, since the battery power is now half or less of the original, and the other pack might even be faulty. Edited February 24, 2020 by mrelwood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRobot Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) OK I'll charge each one 100% with gotway charger individually before reconnecting them. So that either means it was imbalanced... Or that y connection was loose... Or the y connector isn't working properly. Will do another range test tomorrow and see what kind of numbers I get. Really hope it was just loose! Edit: just saw your edit @mrelwood about testing each individually with a range test. That's a good idea, that will be my next step if it still doesn't seem right. Edited February 24, 2020 by MrRobot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, MrRobot said: OK I'll charge each one 100% with gotway charger individually before reconnecting them. Check the voltage from each battery from the app as well before reconnecting both, since a faulty pack usually terminates the charge well before 100%. Quote So that either means it was imbalanced... Or that y connection was loose... Or the y connector isn't working properly. I gather that you don’t have a multimeter you could use to measure the voltage at the Y-connector? Edited February 24, 2020 by mrelwood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRobot Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, mrelwood said: Check the voltage from each battery from the app as well before reconnecting both, since a faulty pack usually terminates the charge well before 100%. Ok 4 minutes ago, mrelwood said: I gather that you don’t have a multimeter you could use to measure the voltage at the Y-connector? Unfortunately not. Can make a trip to the hardware store tomorrow possibly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRobot Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) Edited. I did a small range test with each pack by holding the wheel up and letting it spin the same amount of time and speed but the differences were too small to be conclusive. Will do a real range test tomorrow and see what happens Edited February 24, 2020 by MrRobot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted February 25, 2020 Share Posted February 25, 2020 Check wheellog and see that it says 84.0V there when you've left the wheel to charge for a while. Then the packs should be fine. Riding in low temperatures drops the range considerably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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