What Fire Extinguisher to get?

[null]

I doubt it takes 10 seconds for the cells to burn up, and they burn like firework / gunpowder, creating a much stronger flame than melting plastic. I' personally worry about the concrete if 240 cells of Sherman went awry. I'd love to be wrong though.

Im very interested in how long the violent part lasts, "normal" flames should be more manageable.

Edited November 25, 2020 by null

[mike_bike_kite]

19 minutes ago, null said:

It was mentioned previously to store the EUC on a sheet of (melting) over a volume of water.
An alternative would be to have the water stored on top of the UEC, flowing down into a compartment where the batteries would be submerged.

In case there are several EUCs (which those who worry tend to have) there is the benefit that a single "dose" of water needs to be stored, so for each extra EUC the liquid ceilings can be proportionally thinner.

The compartments could be boxes on wheels or a single grouped furniture with front doors, or the water could be a single liftable top lid..

I think the problem with the liftable lid version is you need to pull your 25+Kg EUC out the box. I'm not sure I could even do that but I'd also have to lift the water filled lid which would probably weigh even more  Wouldn't it be easier just to have a fire proof box with a front opening door?

[atdlzpae]

3 minutes ago, null said:

I doubt it takes 10 seconds for the cells to burn up, and they burn like firework / gunpowder, creating a much stronger flame than melting plastic.

And how long does it take on the video I posted? I count about 10s of violent explosion, followed by a normal plastic fire. And I'm pretty certain that was a whole 3000kWh pack at once, essentially a worst-case scenario.

It's good if it takes longer - longer burning time means more time to dissipate energy, less violent flame, and smaller chance of furniture catching fire.

8 minutes ago, null said:

I' personally worry about the concrete if 240 cells of Sherman went awry.

It would be essentially the same as in the video I posted. According to the source, it's a modified Monster with 3100kWh battery - same capacity as Sherman.
Looks flashy, but a tree 1m away is perfectly fine. Keep furniture away and you'll be safe.

[mike_bike_kite]

Would a fire blanket "sack" work? It would need to fit the wheel reasonably well and fit down to the floor to stop new air being fed into the fire. Not sure how forceful the explosions are - would It need a stronger material surrounding the fire resistant material? On the outside it could be a simple jute like material so it would fit into many homes - I store my wheel in the hallway and I'm fairly sure my wife would object strongly if there was a red fire blanket over the wheel. It could also have a nice wheel Logo on the front to make it arty. The sack could be rolled up when not in use.

[null]

@atdlzpae It still seems to do some popping but indeed the most violent phase is fairly quick.
If the actual battery fire is that short the bystander can't get time for anything like cooling it with water, but have to hope for the best and concentrate on the burning plastic and surroundings. (probably hold your breath for the worse part)

@mike_bike_kite Yes a hood could be handy, if the flame isn't too hot. The heat would be yet more concentrated though, and would the gasses blow the thing off?

edit: a lot of stuff here but I can't read the detail right now (special cells?)

Edited November 25, 2020 by null

[Ferreal]

LOL. This is ridiculous. Now we have to worry about our Euc’s burning our house down. I personally haven’t had any issues but it is worrisome. 
 

No wonder kuji stores his euc’s in a metal box when charging. 

[AtlasP]

Copying from other thread as this seems to be best info we've seen so far:

10 hours ago, hyperair said:

I did some amount of research (read: googling) on the topic during the months leading up to the great Singapore EUC ban.

Some of the useful resources I'd found were:

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wcLVfwd8mk (an hour-long lecture about fighting li-ion fires at what looks like a fire-fighting conference of some sort)
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS6KA_Si-m8 (practical evaluation of various approaches to extinguishing laptop battery fires, which are relevant to EUCs because they share similar characteristics (battery is not easily accessible even when it catches fire, etc.)
• https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2405829716303464 (Thermal runaway mechanism of lithium ion battery for electric vehicles: A review)

Not everything was relevant, but these were the highest quality content I'd come across for dealing with Li-ion fires.

My takeaways from going through these were:

• Li-ion batteries undergoing thermal runaway generate their own oxygen, so smothering/depriving the battery of oxygen does not stop thermal runaway
• Smothering potentially traps heat, which raises the temperature of the battery pack even more, which causes the thermal runaway to be more likely to spread from one or a couple of cells to the whole pack. If you use a fire blanket, then what you'll do is prevent the fire from spreading to other things, but prolong the fire.
• The best way to stop thermal runaway is to remove the heat. This means that you either let it completely burn out (heat dissipates to the environment anyway, and no new heat is produced because fuel runs out), or you actually manage to cool each cell down back to room temperature.
• Water is great at removing heat and also great at getting into the battery, or at least close enough to draw heat out of the pack.

Some of the difficulties involved with putting out a Li-ion fire are related to the fact that the cells are buried inside a battery pack, which is itself buried deep inside the wheel. So, If you can get it out of the wheel, do so, then pour water into the battery compartment. Otherwise, find a large body of water, and drown your flaming wheel in it. Watering a wheel doesn't really work because you can't get deep enough (EUCs are kinda splash proof anyway).

Extra notes regarding water and Li-ion cells:

• Li-ion cells do not contain much elemental lithium and will not react with water to create a huge explosion
• During a thermal runaway, you've got an internal short circuit with much lower resistance than water inside your cell anyway, so don't worry about the water creating a short circuit and making things worse
• The risk of electrocution from this is very small as long as your wheel is not plugged into the charger because you're unlikely to close the circuit with the wheel.

TL;DR for a fire:

1. Get the wheel outside, away from anything else that can burn.
2. Get access to the battery if you can
3. Drown the battery, or the whole wheel if you can't get access to the battery
4. Leave it until the fire is out, and then leave it for another day or so

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by AtlasP

[atdlzpae]

13 hours ago, Ferreal said:

Now we have to worry about our Euc’s burning our house down. I personally haven’t had any issues but it is worrisome.

You always have to worry about any kind of a battery. Do you have a car in your garage? With gasoline inside?
Do you put your phone in a fireproof enclosure, or is it on your bed when you sleep?

In high-school I had keys, coins and AA batteries in the same pocket. Once it made a short. Not enough to burn, but enough to get scared when I burned my hand.

It's not an EUC-specific problem. You were just oblivious to the batteries in your laptop.

Edited November 26, 2020 by atdlzpae

[mike_bike_kite]

I tried to find an occurrence of a car battery causing a car to catch fire but couldn't.  There are 40m cars in the UK alone. All the reported incidents I saw were for electric cars - often caused by a trauma to the batteries. Our own wheels have the same type of batteries, a lot of them, and they're continually suffering trauma in falls etc. I think it's a legitimate concern. More so because these wheels usually live in our homes and apartment blocks.

Edited November 26, 2020 by mike_bike_kite

[atdlzpae]

You're right. A gasoline car is a bad example, since a lead-acid battery has an extremely low chance of catching on fire. Not enough energy density and a lot of water to cool it down.

But laptops or phones are a legitimate concern. Not as big as an EUC (less cells to catch fire), but everybody has one.

Edited November 26, 2020 by atdlzpae

[null]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

All the reported incidents I saw were for electric cars

Gasoline cars burn as well though, maybe not because of the battery but still a vehicle that contains energy that sometimes catch fire. They are probably not as reported because not as newsworthy, and also won't show on a search for batteries. I've seen several carcasses in a couple of Km radius from where I live.

Anyhow, not the best example, but regarding battery fire, as @atdlzpae mentions, and every other lithium battery item like wireless headphones and speakers, players, remotes, e-cigarettes, toys, vacuum cleaners,  most modern rechargeable items contain li-ion or li-po. It won't make a ball of fire as large as a EUC or scooter, but it can be dangerous enough if no-one is around to put it out..

Edited November 26, 2020 by null

[mike_bike_kite]

4 minutes ago, null said:

Gasoline cars burn as well though, maybe not because of the battery but still a vehicle that contains energy that sometimes catch fire.

Not denying that at all but the discussion is whether it's worth being concerned over battery fires, especially if they happen in our homes with no warning. Of the 2 car fires I've been in, the first was caused by a minor collision but we didn't realise it had caused a fuel line to start leaking fuel all over the hot engine while the 2nd was caused by a friend who was an amateur welder trying to make a repair on a fuel tank (go figure).