Kingsong KS16S Experience (Negative)

[Robinson Thompson]

Hello,

(Warning - long post)

 

Last year around May/June I purchased a Kingsong KS-16S factory-direct at a reduced rate and I wanted to share my experience for others.

Firstoff, I want to say that the staff at Kingsong (notably Diana who has since left, and Flora) have always been prompt to respond and attempt to assist me, even if a resolution was never reached for most issues.

 

I originally received my unicycle sometime in June '17 I believe, and never experienced any issues for about 2 months once I was able to remove the speed limit inhibitor.

Around 2 months after I received my unicycle, I was attempting to calibrate the pedal level through the old Kingsong (green) app and the unicycle randomly cut out and would not power on.

I was around a mile away from my house at the time and after walking it back home I contacted Kingsong for assistance.

 

Diana was able to provide me with the new Kingsong app (white, non-dev) which I was able to use to unlock the unicycle, but unfortunately despite being usable it showed 4 red LEDs and emitted an intermittent beeping.

Diana and I were able to diagnose that the serial number had been wiped on the unicycle and I would need to use the dev (android-only) app to re-enter the serial number on the unicycle.

Unfortunately, I and everyone else in my family uses iOS devices, and have not used an Android device in the past 3-4 years.

I was, however, able to find an old Samsung 2013/2014 tablet running Android 5.X which I was able to install the dev app on.

Unfortunately, the app always crashed either on opening or when trying to connect to the unicycle and no progress was able to be made.

I was told that I needed an Android 6.X or newer device, which I did not have, so I content myself to deal with the red LEDs (could not check battery level) and the constant beeping, since the unicycle was otherwise usable.

 

Fastforward 3-4 months and I was able to get my hands on 2 Google Nexus devices on loan from a friend (not sure the manufacture year), both running an Android 8.X variant.

Unfortunately, neither device was able to even open the app and the app would crash upon trying to open it (at least the Android 5.X device was occasionally able to get to the point where it attempted to connect to the unicycle before crashing).

Once again, I content myself to just deal with the LED/beeping issues resulting from no programmed serial number, at least the unicycle was still otherwise functional.

 

Fastforward again to today (7/14/18), this morning when I attempted to power on the unicycle the red LEDs would come on, but the unicycle remained otherwise unresponsive.

I opened the newer (white, non-dev) app and got a notification an update from FW 1.02 -> 1.07 was required to continue using the app with the unicycle.

I went ahead and let it complete the update for 10-15min, but after the update completed I was re-prompted to do the same update from 1.02  -> 1.07 again!

At this point, I went ahead and exited out of the app and checked on the unicycle - quick  presses on the power or adjacent button were now completely unresponsive.

After a long power-button press, I was able to get a beep and "bluetooth is not connected" message (unicycle remained unresponsive otherwise).

I was able to re-connect to the unicycle on the app and attempted another FW update, but was prompted to update from -v.01 to v.00 this time, and each time the update was stuck at 0.00% (several short attempts + 1 longer 30min one).

 

After several failed attempted, the unicycle stopped responding to even the long power button press and would only display all lights (all side LEDs in blue/yellow/etc, and the front/back brake/headlight in red).

The unicycle also became unable to connect to the new (white, non-dev) Kingsong app at this point... with the exception being while holding down the power or adjacent button I am able to connect, but the second I let go the connection drops.

At this point I also noticed while pressing the power button, the unicycle emits some resistance (wheel tightens a little), but remains unusable - this sounds like what some other users have described when the control board fries I think.

 

At this point my KS-16S is completely unusable.

 

I went ahead and placed an order through ewheels.com for the Inmotion V10F and look forward to receiving it.

I am optimistic the software quality will be a step up, and the instructions/apps may even be English-native (Kingsong apps use largely broken English.... wouldn't mind if the apps were otherwise high quality and worked as one would expect, but they do not... making the broken English more difficult to deal with).

I do not think I will ever be purchasing a Kingsong again due to the wide range of issues resulting from their largely broken software.

 

Just wanted to share my experience.

[Marty Backe]

Does sound like a bad experience. The KS16S is a nice wheel though, and if you were willing to spend a couple hundred dollars you could buy a new control board?

Finally, this is where dealer support pays for itself. If you are willing to try KingSong again, buy from a local dealer next time so that you won't be left hanging.

Good luck with your new V10F (except for the trolley handle, it is arguably a better wheel than the KS16S).

[Robinson Thompson]

Yes... I do understand a dealer would have been able to assist me in getting these issues resolved.

 

However, my issues have arisen mostly if not entirely from using the Kingsong software in the intended way.

Regardless of whether I purchased factory-direct or through a retailer, this would have been very troublesome for me.... had I purchased through a dealer I would likely have still needed to send my unicycle in 1-2 times which would have been difficult (due to size/weight/packaging).

 

At this point, I would rather put the extra couple hundred $$$ towards the V10F and forget about Kingsong... it has left a bitter taste in my mouth (though I do appreciate their prompt customer service).

 

[Robinson Thompson]

And actually, on the trolley handle, I am hopeful for the V10F one.

 

The issue with the KS16S handle I had was that it crossed the top of the unicycle diagonally... this made it less than stable while leaning against walls often causing it to fall over.

Not a huge concern, and something I would have easily overlooked if everything else was great, but given that I'm switching, I've got my fingers crossed

?

[US69]

Sorry for your bad Ks16 experience.....

As a Software engeneer...i had to say most of this COULD have been avoided if the original problem, loosing the serial number, would have been soluted correctly. If a software is broken, the original problem must be worked on...before doing any other software things.

Hard to explain and doesnt help anymore now. Its a concept of “concentrate on first issue”...

With your choice now, the v10f, i hope you will be happier. Seams you dont read that often here, because than you would know that there are several firmware (not software) problems with this wheel lately, too. Most concerning is that there seams to be an severe issue with the wheel overheating (declaring it as overpowering) if you are not the lightweightest guy. An issue where until today no solution exists....

There is a video in Marty’s youtube catalog where he drives up one of his favorites spots together with a v10f owner.....not a nice experience.

 

 

[Robinson Thompson]

14 hours ago, US69 said:

Sorry for your bad Ks16 experience.....

As a Software engeneer...i had to say most of this COULD have been avoided if the original problem, loosing the serial number, would have been soluted correctly. If a software is broken, the original problem must be worked on...before doing any other software things.

Hard to explain and doesnt help anymore now. Its a concept of “concentrate on first issue”...

With your choice now, the v10f, i hope you will be happier. Seams you dont read that often here, because than you would know that there are several firmware (not software) problems with this wheel lately, too. Most concerning is that there seams to be an severe issue with the wheel overheating (declaring it as overpowering) if you are not the lightweightest guy. An issue where until today no solution exists....

There is a video in Marty’s youtube catalog where he drives up one of his favorites spots together with a v10f owner.....not a nice experience.

 

 

Hello,

Thank you for your feedback!

 

I also happen to be a software engineer and agree with with most of what you said - it is likely, though not 100%, the serial # issue created issues during the firmware update.

Ideally I would have had it fixed months ago, it's frustrating the app to fix it is supported on Android only while my family is 100% iOS, and even Android 5.X/8.X devices I was able to get my hands on weren't able to run it ?

A firmware update is something I would have preferred to avoid unless I had the original issue fixed, but with the unicycle being unresponsive yesterday I felt stuck between a rock and a hard place to try something so I took the risk.

 

Regarding the V10F, you are correct that I don't read here often (except for the Kingsong missing serial # issue.... in which case I have probably read every single related post on this site ?).

It's super helpful to know the V10F may also have some overheating issues due to weight (that may have been exacerbated in that vid due to climbing a very very large hill in what appears to be hot weather, on unpaved roads that may have made the climb more difficult for the unicycle).

I'm 170lb from Washington state - we've got a lot of hills, but they don't come anywhere near that one in size (comparable climb angle, 2-3min total climb time near top speed on the Kingsong).

I will be aware of overheating potential on them esp during summer months.

 

Thanks for raising the V10 overheating to my attention, I'll have to do some more research on that issue.

[US69]

4 hours ago, Robinson Thompson said:

super helpful to know the V10F may also have some overheating issues due to weight (that may have been exacerbated in that vid due to climbing a very very large hill in what appears to be hot weather, on unpaved roads that may have made the climb more difficult for the unicycle).

I'm 170lb from Washington state - we've got a lot of hills, but they don't come anywhere near that one in size (comparable climb angle, 2-3min total climb time near top speed on the Kingsong).

 I will be aware of overheating potential on them esp during summer months.

  

 Thanks for raising the V10 overheating to my attention, I'll have to do some more research on that issue.

I would agree, if Martys wheel just had a glimps of the issues, the V10F showed, too. But Martys wheel got through this hillclimb like nothing with no probs at all.

There are historic problems of companys bringing up their „first powerfull high wattage“ wheel (example KS18a 1200Watt)...seams like IM runs into the same prob with the v10f here....

First they throwed out a FW versions which made the wheel „less powerfull“ but that leads to other warnings all time...

Then they lately admit that the so called overpowering of the wheel is in thruthness just a overheating of the heatsink...and they also admit that they dont show that temperature, so the user cant see the real reason for the „overpowering“ problem!

Even on the latest version this was not soluted...with the wheel still overheating when used on hills. The user in the video above showed that the behaviour stays on..(in another video).....(and he is -in my view- not really a heavy guy!)

Seams like a real design flaw on the v10...where i would see -from MY experience- no real software;firnware solution......

The Hardware needs better cooling, bigger heatsink, stronger fan....whatever...

[eddiemoy]

On 7/14/2018 at 7:23 PM, Robinson Thompson said:

And actually, on the trolley handle, I am hopeful for the V10F one.

 

The issue with the KS16S handle I had was that it crossed the top of the unicycle diagonally... this made it less than stable while leaning against walls often causing it to fall over.

Not a huge concern, and something I would have easily overlooked if everything else was great, but given that I'm switching, I've got my fingers crossed

?

I love the king song handle and sorry you had such a bad experience.  You should not lean the unicycle with the handle extended.  Always retract and lean on the pads.  Much more sturdy.  I don’t like the v10f handle.  But I agree with @Marty Backe that the v10F is better than the 16S.  But IM is still dealing with the overload issues on heavier riders.  Hope you are not one of them and that you don’t have any crazy hills.  Other wise their new firmware is great.  

You might also need an adjustment period to the IM pedal since it is more level and feels not as solid as the KS grip tape.  Meaning you have a sense that you are slipping and need to constantly adjust your stance.  But I’m beginning to get used to the lay feeling and the slipping by adjusting while I ride.  

Goodluck.  

[TomOnWheels]

8 hours ago, US69 said:

I would agree, if Martys wheel just had a glimps of the issues, the V10F showed, too. But Martys wheel got through this hillclimb like nothing with no probs at all.

There are historic problems of companys bringing up their „first powerfull high wattage“ wheel (example KS18a 1200Watt)...seams like IM runs into the same prob with the v10f here....

First they throwed out a FW versions which made the wheel „less powerfull“ but that leads to other warnings all time...

Then they lately admit that the so called overpowering of the wheel is in thruthness just a overheating of the heatsink...and they also admit that they dont show that temperature, so the user cant see the real reason for the „overpowering“ problem!

Even on the latest version this was not soluted...with the wheel still overheating when used on hills. The user in the video above showed that the behaviour stays on..(in another video).....(and he is -in my view- not really a heavy guy!)

Seams like a real design flaw on the v10...where i would see -from MY experience- no real software;firnware solution......

The Hardware needs better cooling, bigger heatsink, stronger fan....whatever...

What I can tell you from my point of view of engineer who opened both KS18L and V10F is that I trust much more KS on their engineering skills than Inmmotion... Almost everything is better on that on the latest KS: water protection, air cooling passive and active, the placement of components, the body design, etc... Of course all is not perfect: the trolley robustness, trolley sensors (why, why they did that ???), choice of speakers... But all in all, I'm really much more confident in using KS18L then V10F.

[UniVehje]

I think @US69 is making the issues sound more severe than they really are. 

My riding weight is about 170 lbs and I have not been able to get the V10F to overheat despite trying very hard to replicate the problem. Marty’s weight is 175 and you can find his 5-part video series testing a pre-production V10F on those extreme hills. I think only one (MCM5) has done better job at a hill nicknamed ”overheat hill”.  At your weight you will likely never experience overheating on any hill. A 200 lbs guy can get it to overheat if riding those long and steep hills. Some can get it when accelerating very fast. But in normal everyday use it should be fine for them also. 

The firmware it comes with is fine. They released a new firmware with new riding modes and didn’t test it properly and then pulled it. It had a bug that lowered the speed limit for some reason. The new firmware is now being tested more and should be available any day now. The app is new and has been buggy but it’s getting better. All the main functions work nicely now. 

 

[US69]

2 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said:

What I can tell you from my point of view of engineer who opened both KS18L and V10F is that I trust much more KS on their engineering skills than Inmmotion... Almost everything is better on that on the latest KS: water protection, air cooling passive and active, the placement of components, the body design, etc... Of course all is not perfect: the trolley robustness, trolley sensors (why, why they did that ???), choice of speakers... But all in all, I'm really much more confident in using KS18L then V10F.

As far as i know trolley rod robustness, the locking mechanism and also the sensors will be done  better and got changes in the next Batch....(Again: As far as my Infos are….)

Other than that, i am with you! The engeneering in the KS18L is the best i have seen in a Wheel until today!

[TomOnWheels]

5 minutes ago, US69 said:

As far as i know trolley rod robustness, the locking mechanism and also the sensors will be done  better and got changes in the next Batch....(Again: As far as my Infos are….)

Other than that, i am with you! The engeneering in the KS18L is the best i have seen in a Wheel until today!

You're right ! They already sent new trolleys ! I will replace mine today ! ?

[US69]

20 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

I think @US69 is making the issues sound more severe than they really are. 

My riding weight is about 170 lbs and I have not been able to get the V10F to overheat despite trying very hard to replicate the problem. Marty’s weight is 175 and you can find his 5-part video series testing a pre-production V10F on those extreme hills.

First of all...thats not what my Intention is…"making it Sound more severe than it is"

 

Then: Martys Wheel was a pre-prodution Wheel and no Serial Wheel.

Then: Even if your weight is near Marty's there is another factor which Comes into Play here: 

Different Temperatures in Finland and in California!!!

 

On the Video i posted above it is clearly to see that the V10F in it's Serial Stadium for the guy riding it is a catastrophy! It nearly overheated/Overpowered 20 times riding up the  hill!

The same guy (Which is btw to my understanding and as you can see on the thumb photo also not that heavy at all, i guess 180-190 punds) posted a follow up Video with the newest Firmware....and the issue is still there! He even changed wheels with another V10F guy to rule out a Problem of his Wheel alone….And nope, with his 10-15kg more the other v10f also overpowered/Overheated!

But okay, i take it a step back....perhaps it is only a Problem for 80-90kg plus People riding hills in warmer countrys!

 

It is not my Intention to "bad mouth" the v10f...i found it a great Wheel, great design, seams to have great power!

But there are definitly Problems with heavier riders when going up hills in warmer countrys, which Need a solution. 

Edit:

Btw: Here the follow up Video with the latest try on their Firmware....and the guy is 90kg - 200lbs...still "overpowering" ...which the INmotion rep here in the Forum than admits is in reality a "Overheating".....which is not shown in the app...as they dont Show heatsink or Mosfet temp….. :

 

[UniVehje]

I have no intention to "good mouth" the V10F either. It is a real issue for people like @maltocs on that video. 200 lbs and like to ride those extreme hills. It looks like InMotion is addressing that issue but it could take a month or two. (it's all cryptic but latest info is that they are working on it)

But I really don't think the OP @Robinson Thompson, 170 lbs in Washington state, should worry about this issue at all. Just trying to relieve his worry in choosing the right wheel for him. (I would also recommend between 18L and V10F)

I don't think Marty's pre-production had any differences in heat management. If it's not in hardware design, it could be just calibration issue with sensors or a bug or they are too careful trying not to damage anything. We'll see someday. But it's over 30 degrees (86+ Fahrenheit) right now in Finland and I'll be trying to overheat it today again. Washington state is probably quite similar to Finland in weather.